Author Topic: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration  (Read 7588 times)

Offline nham3407

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2016, 04:50:43 PM »
Looks good.  Thank you for the photo updates.  I would have imagined it not having the black out on the hood.  Saying that out of not knowing just more accustom to seeing Pastel Blue convertibles with the non NACA hood.  It will be great to see the hood done.  Man two weeks being this close can be a killer.  Pass the time with cleaning other parts.
67 GT S-Code, San Jose, 06/67
72 Mach 1, Dearborn, 01/72
68 Merc. Cyclone, Lorain, 06/68

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2016, 02:34:56 PM »
SVO... take a look at the first picture on this thread showing the underside of the fenders originally. I had two options, return it to that scenario or upgrade to protect the bare metal. I can live with this decision moving forward. Thanks

Brian, I agree that many of the Pastel Blue cars in the day were pretty plain jane... In fact the ram air hood on this convertible is the rarest of the few options that were ordered on the car. Most '71 convertibles in general did not come with the ram air hood. K. Marti's book gives the percentages, cant recall right now but it is pretty low. For whatever reason, the purchaser did check off the ram air option which as you know included the black out hood and chrome hood locks. However, they did not address any of the other paint options that would have provided for further paint addition to the car. It is a unique paint choice overall, for sure. Thanks.
If total protection is the goal along with the factory look ,I would consider top coating the bare metal areas that could possibly be seen with stainless steel paint (many types) and then over spray with the pastel as factory.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline Smokey 15

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2016, 01:30:04 PM »
 Never said this to a guy before, but "nice rearend".

Offline nham3407

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2016, 05:09:29 PM »
Looks great! Keep sharing updates.
67 GT S-Code, San Jose, 06/67
72 Mach 1, Dearborn, 01/72
68 Merc. Cyclone, Lorain, 06/68

Offline brennancarey

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2016, 05:15:07 PM »
At the risk of you getting upset with me like you did with Jeff S. I would like to mention in a intended helpful way that most professional restoration shops put car on a rolling cart made to use the factory jig mounts instead of rolling on restored suspension parts. That procedure of installing suspension before paint is logically backwards and gives less then desirable results. The cart makes the car easy  (mostly easier because of swivel wheel/casters ) to move as well as keeping the detail work on fresh suspension from paint overspray dust etc.. No matter how hard you try taping off the suspension you will not get as good of a result as adding the suspension after the car is painted just like the factory did. I just hate to see all of your effort get compromised by a misstep and felt compelled to post.  Regardless of how you do it the best of luck with your project.

Bob a question for you, as you say the factory way was to do the body paint before suspension install etc. Thats all well and good fine on a production line when a car takes a short time to be assembled, but like most of us we dont have a week to assemble the car and the longer it sits around the more chance the paint work can get scratched or damaged no matter how careful you are. So my question is not a bit of overspray not better than a damaged panel or edge ?? I am just asking because I think most of us have the same challenges even if in a restoration shop these cars are standing around and the later you can put them in final paint the less chance of damage..!  thoughts???
67 GTA 390 Fastback
Dark Moss Green
Dearborn
Build Date 12/28/66

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2016, 09:31:23 PM »
Bob a question for you, as you say the factory way was to do the body paint before suspension install etc. Thats all well and good fine on a production line when a car takes a short time to be assembled, but like most of us we dont have a week to assemble the car and the longer it sits around the more chance the paint work can get scratched or damaged no matter how careful you are. So my question is not a bit of overspray not better than a damaged panel or edge ?? I am just asking because I think most of us have the same challenges even if in a restoration shop these cars are standing around and the later you can put them in final paint the less chance of damage..!  thoughts???
My thoughts are you will not get as good finished results if you do it that way. My thoughts are that It depends on your expectations. If it is going to be basically a driver car and you are making many other cosmetic short cuts then your expectations are not as high and a little overspray will not bother you. People wanting show quality results will be disappointed with the masking off approach compared to the other way.  My thoughts are with suspension and attaching parts prepped before the car is painted, if you can't get the car rolling in a afternoon then you only have the guy in the mirror to blame not other people who can.  My thoughts are if you don't want to do it the concours way then don't ,it is your car.  Just don't make excuses "So my question is not a bit of overspray not better than a damaged panel or edge ??"  when others in similar circumstances can make things happen without the apparent insurmountable issues . My thoughts ,others may have different.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2016, 01:05:37 AM »
My eye's must be getting bad, but I can't see the apparent and unwanted overspray on my car... There will be some as I will try to emulate the overspray that might have occurred from the painters on the line at the factory.

I am perplexed though, that if a car is not finished in a certain manner (concourse?), it automatically becomes a "driver" in some people's minds ???

I do intend to drive mine, not a lot, but it will be driven, so yes mine will be a driver and would have been had I painted it as some have suggested is the "correct" way.

And, no excuses here, ever. Cheers.
Before you get too indignant consider how difficult it is to define a level of correctness for assemblyline build techniques as it applies to these cars to someone that is relatively new to the concepts. Concours correct typically means assemblyline production procedures for the most part . Driver car typically applies to cars where short cuts for efficiency or economy have been the goal. There is nothing wrong with ether category. Using the term driver may be demeaning in your eyes but to others it is simply a way of describing a certain category of build criteria for a car. There are many who build their car to concours show standard and then drive them. It is just like driving off the show room floor and the car degrades as it would naturally . That car is a driver but in the extreme upper category that most would consider a "show car". You can see how it is multi faceted description .  There is information on how the cars are built and it is up to the individual to decide what is best for him or her. Like from your description you are choosing to do on the overspray patterns underneath your car in other then the way it came from the factory . Some have offered suggestions on ways to do things so metal is protected and yet retain the assemblyline look. Meant in a positive helpful way. When members offer their opinions the help it is typically perceived in a positive way. Personalizing a car is your right as a owner but it is a little unreasonable IMO to get distressed when others on this forum don't agree with your choices. Most on this site (be the way called 'CONCOURS" Mustang Forum for a reason) are interested on the details and procedures of how the cars were produced new from the different assemblyline plants and shared techniques on how to replicate them. You don't have to do it that way and can pick and choose how you want to do your car but don't be surprised or dismayed that when faced with someone turning from the assemblyline path others try to nudge you back. It is meant in a friendly way. Original build is the focus of this forum thus the name. There are many here that give of their spare time and knowledge to share with others. I don't think anyone is saying "you have to do it this way or else ". Take the information in the general good spirit it is intended and do with it as you will. 
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline brennancarey

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2016, 03:41:53 AM »
Bob,  Ntd your comments I think we are all trying to do the best we can given our circumstances thats why we are here learning but how does one practically do this you have not actually said ? I would be very interested to hear how one paints a complete car and then packs its all up (fenders, hood, valance etc) to  only assemble it  down the road and at the same time not damage the the rear quarters etc etc over a say 2 year period of standing.

In my thought process it makes sense to paint the outside of the car last because if you scratch it its going to need repainting and subsequent overspray anyway ?  I am questioning to learn not to start a argument but it does not make sense even if you are building the best of the best in the best of the best shop its not a 1 week process to assemble a mustang as you know. So how do you guys do it pls teach me as I am sure you are doing and have ways we can all learn from

Thks
67 GTA 390 Fastback
Dark Moss Green
Dearborn
Build Date 12/28/66

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2016, 01:10:12 PM »
Bob,  Ntd your comments I think we are all trying to do the best we can given our circumstances thats why we are here learning but how does one practically do this you have not actually said ? I would be very interested to hear how one paints a complete car and then packs its all up (fenders, hood, valance etc) to  only assemble it  down the road and at the same time not damage the the rear quarters etc etc over a say 2 year period of standing.

In my thought process it makes sense to paint the outside of the car last because if you scratch it its going to need repainting and subsequent overspray anyway ?  I am questioning to learn not to start a argument but it does not make sense even if you are building the best of the best in the best of the best shop its not a 1 week process to assemble a mustang as you know. So how do you guys do it pls teach me as I am sure you are doing and have ways we can all learn from

Thks
I am lead to the conclusion that in your tunnelvision of "can't do" you didn't absorb what was said in my post #15 otherwise you would not have asked the question. " most professional restoration shops put completely disassembled car on a rolling cart made to use the factory jig mounts instead of rolling on restored suspension parts." . If made with the jig points you can hang all of the fenders hood etc right on the car after they are done. Fitted and on the car is the best way to trans port items home and also to confirm proper fit by the body before paying the body shop for their work etc . finding that something doesn't fit properly maybe 2 years later even 2 months as you said is a recipe for disaster. If the shop is not going to assemble the suspension enough to get it rolling off off the cart then ether the owner does it before leaving , borrow the cart and put the prepared suspension on in a afternoon and return the cart . A dedicated cart is what I have for that purpose so I can do things at my leisure.  Having it on the cart with caster wheels makes it more easily movable then when on tires. Instead of a cart you can have a donor set of suspension to temporarily fit to the car during the sand blasting,body prep ,priming ,and finish paint coats. To think finished prepared  parts are not going to get compromised in some way to not look fresh brand new during all of that is unreasonable. You substitute the prepared finished suspension for the temporary suspension at your leisure . There are of course many variations but these are some basics. FYI this can be done with out scratching quarter panels etc. Many people including myself have done it. Doing the the paint LAST on a fully assembled car with engine ,wiring fuel lines etc. is not going to get you close to the assemblyline  correct look but it is your choice. It has been said on this thread and others before that it is about choices. Your choices. The information on this forum is given freely to be helpful and make the job easier to achieve . If you can't do it one of those ways then don't be upset when you can't get the best results . Also don't be upset and indignant with those who can. 
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline Smokey 15

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2016, 01:42:09 PM »
 Not going to get into any whizzing contest here, but what Bob has described is the best way. I do, mainly, resto-mods (on non-numbers cars) and have done race cars. We usually do the entire underside in either gloss or satin black. We use stainless brake and fuel lines and braided steel brake hoses. Using a cart makes it so the painted, or more often powder coated, suspension parts are not victims of any over spray. The entire assembly process goes much smoother. And, you can pay much more attention to detail. A cart, as Bob described, would be a good investment as well as a time-saver.

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2016, 04:28:32 PM »
................ I would be very interested to hear how one paints a complete car and then packs its all up (fenders, hood, valance etc) to  only assemble it  down the road and at the same time not damage the the rear quarters etc etc over a say 2 year period of standing. ....


Not sure how everyone does it and it seems to depend as much on the individual, their situation and their drive just to get it done. Rushing an assembly (at least for me) tends to produce the "oops moments" than than storing does.  I know one friend that stored his fenders and hood in a spare bedroom for four years after they were painted. Sleep cozy next to them a few times in the bedroom. With some builders it's a space thing since cars can easily take 3-4 times their size when apart

Others it's about where you choose to store them. Some will rent space from others - or borrow some from mom's garage.

Guess its about just finding a way, some times spending a little more on furniture pads or something that makes it work out for the owner. Its not suppose to be easy - and most of us find it such - unless you have a full shop and your on your 20th car of the same type or model
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline jwc66k

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2016, 04:45:59 PM »
" most professional restoration shops put completely disassembled car on a rolling cart made to use the factory jig mounts instead of rolling on restored suspension parts." .
Cart? Cart? Oh, one of these. This was used to move a 66 Shelby around in it's owner's garage while there was no suspension (wheels either), transport the body to the painter and then for the painter in his shop. It was passed on to me for future use. It needed some rust removal and prevention so I sprayed Evaporust on sections over a week and painted the processed sections until I was done. The four chassis mounting points are removable bars that have a sliding PVC section used to replicate the factory "ring" left when the under carriage is painted. This one only works on 64-66 Mustangs, I got measurements for a 67 chassis undercarriage (thanks to someone on the forum) and it could be easily modified to fit other years (but I won't).
Jim
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Offline brennancarey

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2016, 02:53:00 AM »
I am lead to the conclusion that in your tunnelvision of "can't do" you didn't absorb what was said in my post #15 otherwise you would not have asked the question. " most professional restoration shops put completely disassembled car on a rolling cart made to use the factory jig mounts instead of rolling on restored suspension parts." . If made with the jig points you can hang all of the fenders hood etc right on the car after they are done. Fitted and on the car is the best way to trans port items home and also to confirm proper fit by the body before paying the body shop for their work etc . finding that something doesn't fit properly maybe 2 years later even 2 months as you said is a recipe for disaster. If the shop is not going to assemble the suspension enough to get it rolling off off the cart then ether the owner does it before leaving , borrow the cart and put the prepared suspension on in a afternoon and return the cart . A dedicated cart is what I have for that purpose so I can do things at my leisure.  Having it on the cart with caster wheels makes it more easily movable then when on tires. Instead of a cart you can have a donor set of suspension to temporarily fit to the car during the sand blasting,body prep ,priming ,and finish paint coats. To think finished prepared  parts are not going to get compromised in some way to not look fresh brand new during all of that is unreasonable. You substitute the prepared finished suspension for the temporary suspension at your leisure . There are of course many variations but these are some basics. FYI this can be done with out scratching quarter panels etc. Many people including myself have done it. Doing the the paint LAST on a fully assembled car with engine ,wiring fuel lines etc. is not going to get you close to the assemblyline  correct look but it is your choice. It has been said on this thread and others before that it is about choices. Your choices. The information on this forum is given freely to be helpful and make the job easier to achieve . If you can't do it one of those ways then don't be upset when you can't get the best results . Also don't be upset and indignant with those who can.

Hi Bob, thanks for the detailed reply, I did read your previous post #18 (i think you are ref to not #15?), like I said I am just trying to learn. So if I have upset you in any way as it seems I may have... Its not my intention at all and if I have I do sincerely apologise ! I would say in my defence that I probably suffer from "overwhelm-a-vision" vs that "tunnel vision" you mentioned and I dont believe for 1 minute I am suffering from "cant do" either its more of a case of how to do ? 

Pls do understand that newbies like me dont fully know lots of things and connecting the dots sometimes is a challenge and requires maybe sometimes stupid questions or obvious questions to experts like you and I really do mean that you and Jeff are truly experts and VERY giving of your time which I think we are all very great full for !!!   :) :)

So thank you for explaining and elaborating on your post #18 above I did read it for sure and was the basis for my questioning. Your current response however makes a lot of sense to me now together with Jeffs follow up comment on the storage. What you have done is open my eyes and now I understand... and my car will be grateful for it as I was honestly going paint the undercarriage, engine bay, interior,  assemble drive train into a rolling chassis and then paint exterior. With what i have learnt the plan will now change and I will indeed follow your advise on a cart. So thank you sir !

Rgds
Brennan
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 02:55:41 AM by brennancarey »
67 GTA 390 Fastback
Dark Moss Green
Dearborn
Build Date 12/28/66

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2016, 02:25:50 PM »
Hi Bob, thanks for the detailed reply, I did read your previous post #18 (i think you are ref to not #15?), like I said I am just trying to learn. So if I have upset you in any way as it seems I may have... Its not my intention at all and if I have I do sincerely apologise ! I would say in my defence that I probably suffer from "overwhelm-a-vision" vs that "tunnel vision" you mentioned and I dont believe for 1 minute I am suffering from "cant do" either its more of a case of how to do ? 

Pls do understand that newbies like me dont fully know lots of things and connecting the dots sometimes is a challenge and requires maybe sometimes stupid questions or obvious questions to experts like you and I really do mean that you and Jeff are truly experts and VERY giving of your time which I think we are all very great full for !!!   :) :)

So thank you for explaining and elaborating on your post #18 above I did read it for sure and was the basis for my questioning. Your current response however makes a lot of sense to me now together with Jeffs follow up comment on the storage. What you have done is open my eyes and now I understand... and my car will be grateful for it as I was honestly going paint the undercarriage, engine bay, interior,  assemble drive train into a rolling chassis and then paint exterior. With what i have learnt the plan will now change and I will indeed follow your advise on a cart. So thank you sir !

Rgds
Brennan
Brennan , thank you for the kind words. I am guilty of being a little  frustrated not upset because I want you to see what I see and understand what I understand so you can by pass mistakes I made in younger years. It is hard for people to have a point of reference if they have never seen a correctly done finished product . It is hard to explain a reference point in words sometimes. Glad we got the point across in the friendly way the it was intended.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline Smokey 15

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Re: '71 429 Convertible J Code Restoration
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2016, 10:58:01 PM »
 Looking good! I'm happy for you.  I agree. The only one you need to please is the one who owns the car and is spending the $$$$.