Author Topic: St. Augustine MCA judging  (Read 10651 times)

Offline mikeljgt500kr

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2016, 04:18:34 PM »
Marty, I too agree this isn't the place to do this. I too am saddened. I too have invested tens of thousands of my own money as a volunteer to help people make their cars better (and I've never got compensated) For the most part I have stayed out of this ridiculous array of not much more than the same old defense, defense, defense. But enough is enough. I like you will not address scoring but your comments

Gentlemen,
I do not feel that a public forum is the place to debate the points taken on an individual’s judge sheet and I will not enter in to it here

Marty, There is no public understanding of appeal process, judges don't talk at shows, when courteous respectful emails are sent questioning controversial scoring accusations are made and people are kicked out

 I am certain everyone on the judging team in question would be more than willing to privately answer your concerns or questions

I believe Dave did try this privately and after judging was told no. Not sure what kind of confrontation would have been being outnumbered 4 to1 but the excuse (defense) given was "to avoid confrontation"
Here's how you avoid confrontation. Clear concise communication

There are only 12 or so experienced Shelby judges in the country  of which most are restorers for different reasons (which I will not get in to here ) no longer help the MCA judge. 

Great statement. I think the answer is worth "getting into" because it is the root of the issue

Statements made in the thread above seem to indicate you as owners are far more experienced in scoring than the judge team who were the club president, head judge, assistant head judge and a gold card judge.  My question is if you have so much knowledge and experience why are you not helping judge?

See previous statement. Qualified judges don't want to waste their time with politics egos and agendas. Leaves owners to fend for themselves. Just because someone has a "title" doesn't make then more knowledgeable than owners.

Just once it would be refreshing to hear "we were wrong"

+1, well said and exactly my experience as well.  And people should know by now, the first step out of doing things over and over the same way and expecting different results is to admit there is a problem and get out of the denial phase.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 06:07:10 PM by mikeljgt500kr »
I don't always downshift, but when I do it is near a Prius so they can hear me hurting the environment.

Offline RJC

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2016, 09:34:25 PM »
Just found this thread and found it quite interesting. I am a newbie to this forum but not to the concours process, both SAAC and MCA.

Seems like I had a better experience with the judging process than others but in the end, a similar result.


I attended the national MCA meeting in St Augustine, Florida as well with my recently restored KR convertible in the concours trailered class. 

For me, the judges couldn’t have been more cordial and professional in their demeanor.  They eagerly included me in their technical discussions and did an excellent job explaining the different subtleties of my car including the good and bad points per their expertise which appeared to be quite fair and impartial. They made a potentially very painful process quite enjoyable and informative. I left with a good feeling about the entire judging procedure.

I am no expert regarding the concours restoration of a Shelby by any means, but I do have experience on both sides of the concours judging process. In the recent past, I have been a helper judge at SAAC in the 1968 group and currently own an MCA and SAAC gold KR. In addition, during the restoration of my KRs, I took a very active role in learning the nuances of assembly line, NOS and reproduction parts and purchased many on my own, obviously with help.

In my novice opinion the vast majority of the “issues” with my KR were quite minor and mostly subjective, sometimes appearing to mix concours rules with Thoroughbred class rules: non etched headlights, incorrect floor jack, non Autolite shocks, and steering wheel color not dark enough etc. The main judge even remarked that there would be minimal or no deduction for many of these. Even the overly buffed bumpers were 80% fine having only shine through on their tips, so I felt confident the deductions for the deficits would be fairly proportionate. The inclement weather necessitated covering my car with plastic to keep the elements at bay. Unfortunately the residue from my plastic car cover leached onto the front letter panel paint and was probably the most significant issue. The judges kindly charted no deduction for my stupidity.

I recognize that my KR is far from perfect but I was quite confident after the judging experience that I had a car worthy of a gold award. I was sincerely surprised with the silver award and when the judging sheet came back with a -30 points, that seemed out of proportion to the my experience. For example:

1. I lost 3 full points out of a total of 5 points in authenticity for the poor bumper buffing which really only affected 20% or so in the bumper/guard/brackets/hardware section. What would the deduction be for an incorrect of damaged bumper? 

2. “Radio Screws should not be black”. I lost 50% of the total radio points for that seemingly insignificant issue.

3. “Pitted hubcaps” were penalized approximately 40% of the total workmanship of the tires, wheels and hubcaps section. That seems excessive to me. In my opinion there was minimal pitting and while I understand that judging is subjective, I wonder what the deduction would be if I had 10 spokes instead? Couldn’t be much more.

4. I lost a full point for sand in the carpet. True, there was some dirt on the driver’s side floor as I did have to drive the car to the parking spot and that is my fault. In addition, on Friday, there was a torrential downpour and I was much more concerned about water spraying in thru the window gaps and onto the interior carpet and ruining the dash or electrical components. The Friday downpour was so significant that water entered my engine compartment and smudged my battery OK sticker (no deduction for that, fortunately). I did not have a vacuum cleaner so I picked up as much as I could. It just seems that an outdoor concours should have some accommodation for a little dirt.

5. Several controversial issues like incorrect font on the KR stripe and an incorrect fender badge were noted, but not deducted for which seemed fair at the time. These items are items indistinguishable from my SAAC and MCA gold KR which had no deductions for this. But then I see that I lost something like 6 points (out of the 21 allowed for the gold award) for miscellaneous "not previously deducted" issues. It makes me wonder if some of the “non- deducted” and more controversial issues were gathered in this category to avoid scrutiny.

6. lost 2 of 5 points for minor carb finishing details.

7. Lost 1 of 2 points for an incorrect double crimp oil filter, which I'm told is the correct filter.

8. lost 1 of 4 points for shocks, not Autolite. I think that is a Thoroughbred requirement. 

As you can see, I am quite baffled by the concours scoring of my KR which appears not only grossly subjective, but excessive and even punitive. I fear a hidden agenda with my scoring. My car has since been evaluated by a well respected Shelby restorer who said that there are some issues with the car but it is clearly deserves a gold.   

I am in the process of appeal with the MCA leadership, Jeff Mays, Allen Stewart and Ron Wheeler. My fingers are crossed.
                                             
                                                  Sincerely,

                                                  Bob Cassling
                                                       

My MCA appeal has been in the system about 2 weeks.

Does anyone know what the average response time is?

Thanks

Offline PerkinsRestoration

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2016, 10:06:05 PM »
I don't see MCA going to participation awards anytime soon to keep the cry baby restorers and owners who can't compete at the top level happy. That would not be fair to the participants who have earned top awards. Michael KR if you want to drive your cars enter them in driven concours rather than trailered or expect workmanship deductions if you don't clean them. If your so proud you drive them, enter the concours driven class. Unfortunately some people prefer to complain or blame others rather than objectively address the real issue. Personally I would never take a dirty car or one with rusty exhaust to a National show. 

Offline Laurie S.

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2016, 10:08:21 PM »
Which rule number is it?  I see #14 that states: "All cars must remain in place during show hours. No engines may be started during show hours without prior approval of the National Head Judge or his designated representative. Violation of this rule will be grounds for disqualification."

It's part of the National Show guidelines.  Show hours include Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.  All cars are required to be in place by 8 am on Sunday or may be disqualified.  I have been to a number of shows, such as at Colorado last year, where a large numbers of the cars (probably half in Colorado) did not show up on Sunday.  Those cars should be disqualified from receiving an award.


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Online caspian65

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2016, 10:30:33 PM »
That is still wrong.  The cars could have been in place until 10 am with plenty of time to spare to load up and vacate.

That's what I did, loaded up around 10:30 or so.

It was a very strict agreement the local club had with the Deaf/Blind School to be out by a certain time on Sunday as they bus in a few thousand students from all over the state.  The awards were moved up to around noon I believe.

Agree that under normal conditions, cars that don't return on Sunday should be disqualified.  It's very clear in the MCA judging guidelines.
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
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Offline PerkinsRestoration

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2016, 10:35:44 PM »
My MCA appeal has been in the system about 2 weeks.

Does anyone know what the average response time is?

Thanks


All 4 shocks must be Autolite in trailer concours.  minus 4




 

Offline TLea

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2016, 11:45:26 PM »


All 4 shocks must be Autolite in trailer concours.  minus 4
Shock Absorbers: 67 - adjustable Autolite, black. 68 - adjustable Autolite (originally made by Gabriel), blue. GT500 KR 4-speed rear uses standard non-adjustable Autolite, black ............... 4
4 points for entire shocks category so a car with no shocks has same value as car with correct appearance shocks in concours trailered? This is typical MCA ignorance that is driving people away. The predictable insults and defense of a broken system are getting old and boring
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 11:49:16 PM by TLea »
Tim Lea  Shelby concours judge MCA, SAAC, Mid America

Offline PerkinsRestoration

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2016, 12:21:00 AM »
Tim, the only thing broken is your profile credentials.  ;) Why not use the Autolite repop shocks and comply with the rules? Your excuses are getting old! The judges were more than lenient with one point deduction on the shocks. Let me know when you find a chrome shop that can chrome 20% of a bumper.

Offline RJC

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2016, 01:44:32 AM »


All 4 shocks must be Autolite in trailer concours.  minus 4

That doesn't really answer my question.

Offline TLea

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2016, 07:19:08 AM »
Sorry bob not interested in stooping down to your level of insults. You are too "well defended"  I will compliment you on your eyesight though. Pretty amazing what you saw from 1500 miles away

I would like to apologize if I offended anyone with my comment "typical MCA ignorance". There are many hard working good people and friends that participate. My comments are reserved for those have earned them
Tim Lea  Shelby concours judge MCA, SAAC, Mid America

Offline mikeljgt500kr

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2016, 10:18:54 AM »
That doesn't really answer my question.
+1, but Bob, given my experience with these kinds of things, I would not hold my breath for an answer. :) 
I don't always downshift, but when I do it is near a Prius so they can hear me hurting the environment.

Offline RJC

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2016, 11:51:47 AM »
+1, but Bob, given my experience with these kinds of things, I would not hold my breath for an answer. :)

Mike,

I'm hoping to be the exception and get a fair hearing, but its looking less and less likely. Fingers remain crossed.

Offline mikeljgt500kr

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2016, 01:29:23 PM »
I have my fingers crossed with you Bob, and hope you get a favorable resolution.  But I have to admit that my experiences in concours judging, and those of several here and in PMs I have gotten over the last year give me cause for concern that the system is broken on many levels and I doubt it can be fixed given the entrenched positions and denials of the people that have the power over us all.  May be time to move along to other clubs that do not have these problems.
I don't always downshift, but when I do it is near a Prius so they can hear me hurting the environment.

Offline specialed

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2016, 02:56:50 PM »
carguy when I was in fl. jan. looking over your Shelby I warned you about showing your car in MCA THB class after seeing what happened to Jason Billups black b9 getting gold in indy then fixing some things & showing in fl. 1 month later MCA grandnats. & getting a bronze. What happened to judging concours on what is right & what is wrong on the car instead of how clean the car is that's for ISCAshows. From what I seen in past judging is when the judge don't know enough about the car they judge on how clean the car should be & nitpik it. As head judge I go over the judging sheets with the other judges & show them what they missed & make them correct items BEFORE the sheets are turned in to avoid problems later. When I was in FL. jan.MECUM auction I was asked to look at one of the feature cars (KK1668 red b9 on front cover of mecum catalog) a MCA Thoroughbred gold winner for a buyer from N. IN. who fly his family & friends to auction & we had an empty trailer there to haul car back as he had the $ & wanted a red b9.Well we looked the car over as well as Bob Gaines also did & started to find things wrong like windshield,wiper blades,center caps, lugnuts,70 outer door felts,lower door seals missing,jack handle,a 70 hood hinge,XE alt belt,lh smog hose,70 dist advance,missing 4 radclips,gauge feed wire,wiring holders,70brake cables,welded on tie rod adjuster bolts,shocks,alum h-pipe,71 lower control arms,missing bumper arm rubbers & clips,clutchfork & boot & adjuster,alt wire, & repo parts roof weatherstrips,package tray,front seatcovers, shifter knob,headlight wiring harness,a/c lid,2 belts,a/c hose,smog valve,reverse lites,p/shoses,brakehoses,drain plugs,gas tank sender, & on the body front spoiler holes but no spoiler,2 extra holes in rear bumper ( by tag lite)extra holes front & reartrunk pan (trailer hitch or ?),3 dents underside decklid,tailpanel dented in by key hole,slick paint. no floorpan drips or runs,missing some seam sealer,no deadner on backside of rear valance & not enough on fender bottoms, not even close b9rolled rod fenders, trunk tailite wiring un raveled loose,silver painted tailite buckets,no paint on rear valance screws,wrong underlayment, lh tore at topwindlaceing,filters not oe autolite,many hardware & detailitems wrong etc.1 & 1/2 page list. The buyer said well if I buy it can you fix the incorrect items on the car & I said not with out painting the car over as you need to find boss 429 fenders first. He was very disappointed after making the trip & said how can this car be a MCA THB gold winner &I didn't have an answer & car never bid close to asking price.  I was also asked to look at Mike B. 70 orange b2 after it got a gold THB in ill. in 2014 loosing 8 points because he wanted it judged at saac in 2015 & I am no b2 expert but knowing mike & his dad working on the car all these years & doing a great job on the resto I lookedit over & was surprised to find 55 or so items for him to correct before saac judging& he fixed most of thembefore saac. It just seems like some people have to earn their awards & some have them given to them & that's just not fair.

Offline DLONGHOFER

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2016, 09:35:39 PM »
carguy when I was in fl. jan. looking over your Shelby I warned you about showing your car in MCA THB class after seeing what happened to Jason Billups black b9 getting gold in indy then fixing some things & showing in fl. 1 month later MCA grandnats. & getting a bronze. What happened to judging concours on what is right & what is wrong on the car instead of how clean the car is that's for ISCAshows. From what I seen in past judging is when the judge don't know enough about the car they judge on how clean the car should be & nitpik it. As head judge I go over the judging sheets with the other judges & show them what they missed & make them correct items BEFORE the sheets are turned in to avoid problems later. When I was in FL. jan.MECUM auction I was asked to look at one of the feature cars (KK1668 red b9 on front cover of mecum catalog) a MCA Thoroughbred gold winner for a buyer from N. IN. who fly his family & friends to auction & we had an empty trailer there to haul car back as he had the $ & wanted a red b9.Well we looked the car over as well as Bob Gaines also did & started to find things wrong like windshield,wiper blades,center caps, lugnuts,70 outer door felts,lower door seals missing,jack handle,a 70 hood hinge,XE alt belt,lh smog hose,70 dist advance,missing 4 radclips,gauge feed wire,wiring holders,70brake cables,welded on tie rod adjuster bolts,shocks,alum h-pipe,71 lower control arms,missing bumper arm rubbers & clips,clutchfork & boot & adjuster,alt wire, & repo parts roof weatherstrips,package tray,front seatcovers, shifter knob,headlight wiring harness,a/c lid,2 belts,a/c hose,smog valve,reverse lites,p/shoses,brakehoses,drain plugs,gas tank sender, & on the body front spoiler holes but no spoiler,2 extra holes in rear bumper ( by tag lite)extra holes front & reartrunk pan (trailer hitch or ?),3 dents underside decklid,tailpanel dented in by key hole,slick paint. no floorpan drips or runs,missing some seam sealer,no deadner on backside of rear valance & not enough on fender bottoms, not even close b9rolled rod fenders, trunk tailite wiring un raveled loose,silver painted tailite buckets,no paint on rear valance screws,wrong underlayment, lh tore at topwindlaceing,filters not oe autolite,many hardware & detailitems wrong etc.1 & 1/2 page list. The buyer said well if I buy it can you fix the incorrect items on the car & I said not with out painting the car over as you need to find boss 429 fenders first. He was very disappointed after making the trip & said how can this car be a MCA THB gold winner &I didn't have an answer & car never bid close to asking price.  I was also asked to look at Mike B. 70 orange b2 after it got a gold THB in ill. in 2014 loosing 8 points because he wanted it judged at saac in 2015 & I am no b2 expert but knowing mike & his dad working on the car all these years & doing a great job on the resto I lookedit over & was surprised to find 55 or so items for him to correct before saac judging& he fixed most of thembefore saac. It just seems like some people have to earn their awards & some have them given to them & that's just not fair.
[/quote

20 years ago when I was judging MCA we were not allowed to correct/tally/review judging sheets before they were turned in.   Has this changed??