ConcoursMustang Forums

Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Processes, Products & Techniques => Topic started by: J_Speegle on January 05, 2014, 06:04:27 PM

Title: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: J_Speegle on January 05, 2014, 06:04:27 PM
Currently and over the years the paper engine ID decals have been reproduced by the thousands. Some have been more like the originals than others but none- currently available commercially - are made out of the same material or using the original process. Since few of you will be making your own you will will be left to use what is  commercially available.

Looking at the originals they were a printed paper label/sticker with a clear layer laminated over the surface of each. Also we find fine serrated ends where it appears they were torn from a spool of labels much like we would find in a large tape dispenser today.

Here is a close up of an original where the clear laminate has separated from the base material over time. The fine serrated edge is also barely visible.

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/14/6-040620190924.jpeg)


Current commercially available reproductions are based on vinyl or plastic decals with no clear laminate and ends designed with everything from rounded to jagged ends :(

Here is an example of a jagged edge similar to being cut with fabric scissors.

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-050114151955-1528332.jpeg)



To at least improve the reproductions you may be using I've been recutting the ends using the following process to at least improve that little detail.

As always this may not be the best or easiest - just what has worked for my after trying a number of methods. Hope it helps others.

- For the process you'll need a large packaging tape dispenser and a metal object (have used a straight screw driver or other tool with a small flat edge)


- Since the labels are not delivered with much extra material on either end getting them to stay in place during the process is the first challenge. For this I fold over the end of the decal approx 1/8" from the pre cut end and place a small piece of package tape on that edge leaving a tail of approx 3". This additional tail will provide me something to anchor against the dispenser as I make the end end. I place the tap on the back side of the decal so that the finished surface of the decal is closest to the cutting edge on the dispenser for a clear cut.

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-050114160134-1539330.jpeg)


(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-050114151944-15232206.jpeg)



- I place the decal surface and that hard fold I placed in the decal (fold does not show well in the picture) over the cutting edge making sure that its alignment all along the edge then press the anchoring tape to the surface of the dispenser.

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-050114151947-15242210.jpeg)

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-050114151949-15251132.jpeg)



- Then while providing tension with the untapped edge, not too much just enough to insure contact  I rub the metal tool across the cutting edge which produces the new cut edge.

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-050114151951-15261173.jpeg)



- I then repeat the same process on the other end of the decal repeating all the steps

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-050114151953-15272328.jpeg)



- The decal at that point is ready to be applied. Always check to make sure the location is correct for your engine type and year as the location is very different depending on those details. If the decal as a two piece backing only removed on side. This will allow you to not touch the adhesive on the rear and use the covered half to guide the decal into place. Press out any bubbles under the first half then roll off the backing on the other half, apply and press out any remaining bubbles   

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-050114155740-15381470.jpeg)



- If the engine is cold or even sometimes when it is the vinyl decals can benefit from assuring a warm contact surface and even a light warming of the decal one applied to improved contact.


Hope this helps other in their effort to improve their restorations
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: carlite65 on January 05, 2014, 06:20:03 PM
jeff what do you suggest to relaminate the decal? would clear shipping tape be suitable? thinking of taping the decal to a solid smooth surface & trimming around the long sides then finish the ends as you suggest above.
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: J_Speegle on January 05, 2014, 06:26:30 PM
jeff what do you suggest to relaminate the decal? would clear shipping tape be suitable? thinking of taping the decal to a solid smooth surface & trimming around the long sides then finish the ends as you suggest above.

Yes as it will yellow slightly and can be another step at improving a not so perfect reproduction. Still going to be be vinyl but its better.  BTW its what I use when I make paper based reproductions for some of the restorations out there ;)

Also make sure that you don't pick up any lint or hair between the dispenser and the decal.

Found that a really clean smooth/glossy tile, glass, mirror (don't let the wife catch you ;) or metal surface makes a good surface to do the laminating on
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: specialed on January 06, 2014, 03:06:39 PM
What about ecs automotive stickers
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: carlite65 on January 06, 2014, 03:08:59 PM
'ecs' is the company that makes them http://www.ecsautomotive.com
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: Brant on January 06, 2014, 03:11:16 PM
Be aware that all reproduction decals are not created equally.  We carry some very nice reproductions that look quite different from the example shown here. 

Here is our '65 289 HiPo 554J decal.  It's paper with the laminate as described.  Not all of the applications are like this one, but we have them for quite few of the engines. 

Just saw Ed's post...this is an ECS manufactured decal.  If you are able to get one of their decals for your application, I personally would not go to the trouble of making your own.

(http://www.virginiaclassicmustang.com/Assets/ProductImages/df12747_b.jpg) (http://www.virginiaclassicmustang.com/65-289-HIPO-ENGINE-CODE-DECAL-554J-P244942.aspx#)

(http://www.virginiaclassicmustang.com/Assets/ProductImages/df12747_c.jpg) (http://www.virginiaclassicmustang.com/65-289-HIPO-ENGINE-CODE-DECAL-554J-P244942.aspx#)
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: edwardgt350 on December 02, 2017, 08:26:35 PM
is the 66 engine id sticker the same as the 65?
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: J_Speegle on December 02, 2017, 08:56:43 PM
is the 66 engine id sticker the same as the 65?

No. Remember different ID stickers (within the same year) depending on engine type and transmission type plus thermactor and non-thermactor engines

Lots of variables
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: J_Speegle on March 01, 2019, 07:45:39 PM
The subject of applying adhesive to the back of self made reproduction stickers and decals came up in another recent thread but felt the answer needed to be grouped together with similar discussions so choose to post it here.

As for adhesive I now use a small machine that applies a adhesive backing on the label. comes in a number of levels of adhesive
I think I said that.A rather "ambiguous" machine. Got a manufacturer's name?

I've been using a Xyron Creative Station (9" wide version) model 900 with permanent adhesive refill cartridges

It's a hand crank little machine used by crafters,  scrap bookers  and the like.


(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/11/6-010319184520.jpeg)
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: cobrajet_carl on May 02, 2020, 04:57:23 PM
What sizes are the decals? Does the size vary with engine assembly plant?
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: J_Speegle on May 02, 2020, 05:40:48 PM
What sizes are the decals? Does the size vary with engine assembly plant?

Haven't found a difference as far as how tall the labels are between engine plants - believe that is one thing they all did the same and they might have all  been supplied by the same printer. As far as height of the sticker I use 1". Length of each would differ slightly depending on where the worker applying the sticker choose to tear each one
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: RoyceP on May 03, 2020, 01:03:33 PM
On this topic the restorer needs to know that many of these decals are being made ( I won't use the word reproduced for something made so poorly) with the incorrect engine plant identification. For example, ECS (and others) make 428CJ labels that have the engine plant "L" instead of the correct letter "D". I have brought this to their attention and was rewarded with emails from them about how they are only going to make the decals correctly if they have an original example to copy.

The restorer who seeks the accurate label will be forced to either modify the L into a D or to make the label from scratch.
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: cobrajet_carl on May 19, 2020, 02:38:07 PM
On this topic the restorer needs to know that many of these decals are being made ( I won't use the word reproduced for something made so poorly) with the incorrect engine plant identification. For example, ECS (and others) make 428CJ labels that have the engine plant "L" instead of the correct letter "D". I have brought this to their attention and was rewarded with emails from them about how they are only going to make the decals correctly if they have an original example to copy.

The restorer who seeks the accurate label will be forced to either modify the L into a D or to make the label from scratch.
It would be nice if there were originals to copy from for all engines. I have two 1970 351C machs that I want to make decals for but I have no idea what they originally looked like other than size. I've narrowed it down to these 2 styles. But neither might be correct...I mean in the left side either being C above the timing or just a small C1. The actual engine codes are known, of course.

Actually I think the C1 might not be correct for a 351 Cleveland. But again, I don't know. ???
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: silverelvis69 on September 28, 2020, 05:56:31 AM
Mine is K 6'  K609AG

I believe it is K October 6
G AC

http://1970mach1.homestead.com/3514VC.html
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: cobrajet_carl on September 28, 2020, 12:50:36 PM
No, the K means Non-Thermactor. For 1970 the A suffix is the change level. The G was added if the car had A/C. So possibilities are for a 1970 M code are K608A, K608AG, K609A, K609AG. I have never seen a B suffix for the 351C during the 70 model year.
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: J_Speegle on September 28, 2020, 03:01:30 PM
Guys - the purpose of this thread is about creating the labels not about specific labels and their coding. Great subject for over in the 70 section ;)
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: cobrajet_carl on September 28, 2020, 03:23:57 PM
Guys - the purpose of this thread is about creating the labels not about specific labels and their coding. Great subject for over in the 70 section ;)
Maybe I should have put my post with my attempt at making a decal in this thread.
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: J_Speegle on September 28, 2020, 05:37:07 PM
Sounds great since the intended focus in this thread was making/creating the stickers.

I've learned things by making these and other labels over the years in an effort to improve. The early sticker in the first post shows some terrible edges and even some odd edges - not something I would use at this point. Not sure if that was a mistake in the design of the letters of the inkjet printer I was using at the time. Have since moved on to using only a better printer. Copies turn out sharper and the inks are more permanent than the inkjet I use to use. During that period I had to seal or coat the paper after they were printed. 
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: Countrysquire on April 16, 2022, 10:17:33 AM
What font is used for these decals?  I want to try to make one for my son?s 1970 Bronco that we are finishing up.

Thanks,
Bobby
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: J_Speegle on April 16, 2022, 02:26:44 PM
What font is used for these decals?  I want to try to make one for my son?s 1970 Bronco that we are finishing up.

Thanks,
Bobby

Don't know I draw each letter individually by hand to keep control
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: Bossbill on April 16, 2022, 04:07:30 PM
I scan a tag (or use an online pic) I want to emulate, pic a font that is close ("view fonts" and run through them), convert the text to paths and stretch/push each letter so that it looks like the original.
I usually put the pic on one layer and the text/path on a layer above the pic. Vary the translucency on the letters

There is no "Ford font". Sometimes the font on dates is different between mo/day/year on the same stamp! Usually each vendor has their own font although they tend to have the same "2" and "7" (with the curved back).
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: Countrysquire on April 16, 2022, 06:12:00 PM
Thanks, I will give it a try.

Bobby
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: Countrysquire on May 19, 2022, 07:44:00 PM
So I gave it a try for the 302-2V in my son?s 1970 Bronco and would rate the results between fair and pretty good. Using Avery shipping labels, I printed a sheet, applied packing tape, cut it to size, then recreated the ?tears? on the ends with a packing tape dispenser like Jeff demonstrated. Even at the highest print quality settings, my ink jet printer simply can?t get the letters black enough. I?m going to try again with a laser jet and see if there?s a notable difference. My other concern is that the adhesive won?t hold up for long, but it?s just about as easy to make 20 of them as 1, so no big deal there.
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 19, 2022, 08:54:12 PM
You could also have a stamp made with your artwork . That way you could get it much darker.
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: J_Speegle on May 19, 2022, 09:28:42 PM
So I gave it a try for the 302-2V in my son?s 1970 Bronco and would rate the results between fair and pretty good. Using Avery shipping labels, I printed a sheet, applied packing tape, cut it to size, then recreated the ?tears? on the ends with a packing tape dispenser like Jeff demonstrated. Even at the highest print quality settings, my ink jet printer simply can?t get the letters black enough. I?m going to try again with a laser jet and see if there?s a notable difference. My other concern is that the adhesive won?t hold up for long, but it?s just about as easy to make 20 of them as 1, so no big deal there.

Started out using the same brand and adhesive label paper as yours. You may find that the ink will run if your using an ink jet especially in humid conditions and especially if you don't top coat it with the think clear plastic top layer. I've since gotten a laser jet for making labels of all kinds, changed to paper sheets that provide me with the features I was looking for and using a hobby machine to apply the adhesive backing to the sheets once printed

Have always made 4-6 of every decals since like originals the paper will get old and show age and I'm not planning singles in the future for this sort of thing.

Wonder why his was on the passenger side valve cover.  Just seems odd but guess you had pictures and its location and details were documented
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 20, 2022, 12:41:51 AM
Started out using the same brand and adhesive label paper as yours. You may find that the ink will run if your using an ink jet especially in humid conditions and especially if you don't top coat it with the think clear plastic top layer. I've since gotten a laser jet for making labels of all kinds, changed to paper sheets that provide me with the features I was looking for and using a hobby machine to apply the adhesive backing to the sheets once printed

Have always made 4-6 of every decals since like originals the paper will get old and show age and I'm not planning singles in the future for this sort of thing.

Wonder why his was on the passenger side valve cover.  Just seems odd but guess you had pictures and its location and details were documented
+1 . Thought the same thing. The sticker is more typically seen on driver side small block valve cover.
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: J_Speegle on May 20, 2022, 01:05:07 AM
Depends on year. Once you get into at least 73 then you have a different style ID sticker with multiple lines and punch out that are installed on the passenger valve cover as shown above. Just wanted to check to see if someone used a later year example to guide them with placing this one 

In 71 at least some of the engine plants started to apply the stickers to the passenger side though the size, style and layout used in the earlier years continued

(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-200522000151-173881112.jpeg)


Picture below shows examples from 73. In some cases the printing changes to blue while black is used on others

(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-190522235901-17387108.jpeg)
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: Countrysquire on May 20, 2022, 10:51:22 AM
+1 . Thought the same thing. The sticker is more typically seen on driver side small block valve cover.

I didn't have anything to reference on the truck since the valve covers had been repainted, so I went with what I saw in the few original photos that I could find as well as photos on here (from unrestored Mustangs).  Some of those photos were from '71-'73, so that might have misled me.  To be honest, we took some liberties regarding true concours correctness because they would probably hurt more than help in the types of shows this thing will see.  Unpainted waterpump bypass hose and clamps, no overspray on the exhaust manifolds, etc.  That said, we want it to be correct as possible otherwise, so I will place the next attempt at the ID sticker on the driver side valve cover. 

We are lucky that it is an 80,000 mile truck that was mostly untouched under the hood and underneath, so we had a lot we were able to duplicate, such as the yellow motor mounts, but concours Bronco info is not easy to find...

Thanks for y'all's help.
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: Bossbill on May 20, 2022, 01:36:29 PM
My wife used to work in an arboretum and did massive scale planting there and by herself in our greenhouse. The industry uses plastic plant ID tags of various styles including the solid spear and loop-back styles. Although those are rather thick and have no adhesive, there are literally thousands of plastic tags or labels available to this and other industries.

My wife has various machines called vinyl heat transfer machines which produce the plant ID tags. A roll of transfer tape (can be of various colors) is inserted along with a roll of vinyl transfer media. The vinyl transfer, as noted, can be thick like the spears or as thin as mylar. The later can have a really aggressive adhesive.

The machine I have in the shop is one of her spares and I've used it to print information on tubular shrink labels to put over wires for identification. Great for use on racecar wiring systems. In other words, these printers are extremely versatile. (pic 1).
 
The thin vinyl I have in there now is one of the smaller label styles. As I said earlier, these can be purchased in many sizes and thicknesses. The current software in the machine does text on two lines as entered on the keyboard (an optional extra)  (pic2).  You can also download graphics alone or in combination with keyboard entry. One could create the graphics for the engine tag on the computer and then download it to the machine as a graphic.

The thermal transfer does really solid colors as seen on the label I created here. Because it is done thermally, the transfer stays on the vinyl and is very hard to remove except by abrasion. The shininess of the label makes it appear as if it were laminated. Example in pic 3.

Just another rabbit hole to dive into as you require the machine, keyboard, software to drive the machine and thousands of different labels from which to choose.
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: JohnB on May 20, 2022, 01:54:03 PM
Not sure, but does the label turn black when the engine warms up?
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: Bossbill on May 20, 2022, 02:11:50 PM
If you're speaking of the thermal printing process, no.
The thermal part of the process works a bit like a laser printer.
The "ink" is a roll of thin black plastic. It is thermally "welded" to the plastic tag or label.
If you look at the "ink" roll after it does a transfer you will see all of the plastic "ink" missing from the roll.

I believe you are thinking of the old thermal paper used in 80s TI calculator printers.

Edit to add a few details.
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: JohnB on May 20, 2022, 02:14:54 PM
If you're speaking of the thermal printing process, no.
The thermal part of the process works a bit like a laser printer.
The "ink" is a roll of thin black plastic. It is thermally "welded" to the plastic.

I believe you are thinking of the old thermal paper used in 80s TI calculator printers.

Nice to know. Learned something new. Thanks. Are you taking orders? 😁
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: J_Speegle on May 20, 2022, 05:20:15 PM
Not sure, but does the label turn black when the engine warms up?

Not sure whom your asking.
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: JohnB on May 20, 2022, 08:15:24 PM
Not sure whom your asking.

Bossbill
Title: Re: Engine Paper ID Stickers -
Post by: WT8095 on August 28, 2022, 12:51:14 AM
If you're speaking of the thermal printing process, no.
The thermal part of the process works a bit like a laser printer.
The "ink" is a roll of thin black plastic. It is thermally "welded" to the plastic tag or label.
If you look at the "ink" roll after it does a transfer you will see all of the plastic "ink" missing from the roll.

This process is called "thermal transfer." Easily confused with "thermal" printing which uses heat to change the color of the paper. Thermal transfer is much more durable and is not subject to fading or darkening due to heat.