Author Topic: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material  (Read 3745 times)

Offline 67gtasanjose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3006
  • "Take the MUSTANG PLEDGE"
Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« on: September 07, 2016, 11:01:37 AM »
I am rebuilding an otherwise good starter and looking for the paper cardboard gasket under the strap or band. I assume this is not a "special" material so I wondererd if people are simply making their own or if maybe a reproduction version would be more ideal (if available).
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 08:09:50 AM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline jwc66k

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3638
Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2016, 11:44:48 AM »
Richard,
Having designed, built prototypes and tested electronic components in a previous life, I would say that at the least, the "cardboard material" is most likely a special paper covered with an insulating varnish. The "special" part of the paper may include insulating properties and it may have a specific thickness requirement. It cost me $80 to have the 50 year old starter rebuilt for my 66 GT Fastback two months ago. The guy that actually did the work was almost as old as I am so we hit it off well. It was not a concourse restoration as the housing was painted and the Bendix spring cover and brush cover band were not replated. I would recommend you find a local alternator/starter/automotive electric shop and get some assistance.
Jim
I promise to be politically correct in all my posts to keep the BBBB from vociferating.

Offline caspian65

  • Charles Turner
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5852
Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2016, 12:22:50 PM »
I found that to be a simple thin paper gasket.  You can buy rolls of paper gasket material from an auto parts store and make one.
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
Concours Mustang Forum Admin

Online specialed

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 645
Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2016, 12:38:13 PM »
its a thick brown paper like but durable tape of some sort as I found something but is black  & the brown tape I found was too thin.  Most restorers miss this detail under the starter band & I think it was used to help seal outwater from inside starter.  I am having some autolite starters rebuilt now by a guy who been doing it in his shop last 40years. 

Offline 67gtasanjose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3006
  • "Take the MUSTANG PLEDGE"
Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2016, 12:58:19 PM »
Richard,
Having designed, built prototypes and tested electronic components in a previous life, I would say that at the least, the "cardboard material" is most likely a special paper covered with an insulating varnish. The "special" part of the paper may include insulating properties and it may have a specific thickness requirement. It cost me $80 to have the 50 year old starter rebuilt for my 66 GT Fastback two months ago. The guy that actually did the work was almost as old as I am so we hit it off well. It was not a concourse restoration as the housing was painted and the Bendix spring cover and brush cover band were not replated. I would recommend you find a local alternator/starter/automotive electric shop and get some assistance.
Jim

Thanks Jim, I understand clearly the "engineering standpoint" of the paper (cardboard) gasket.  I can appreciate the nature of what Ford wanted in there.

FWIW, an $80 rebuild isn't really out of the question either but I do want mine rebuilt, not "exchanged".
 
I have rebuilt starters too on many occasions and haven't yet ever had too many issues with their performance, even after per-say the brushes shorted out. I usually turn down the armature and replace or lube the bushings as needed and 99% of the time they get a new drive gear. I am leaning towards doing this myself at this time mostly because the closest starter shop to me closed over 15 years ago now and there really isn't anything except cosmetic issues with this one I have.

Thanks for other inputs to this topic too. I figure it isn't likely that this starter will ever see water or snow exposure so I am inclined to just make my own (unless a good source is known or revealed before it goes on the engine)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 01:28:54 PM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline 67gtasanjose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3006
  • "Take the MUSTANG PLEDGE"
Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2016, 01:18:16 PM »
Change of heart...I opened it up and the windings (armature & fields) all look a bit weathered by the years. Yes, the brushes are worn down too but I think this one needs a PRO builder.

I called one about 50 miles away...they happen to come TO ME to pick it up since I am very near to a School Bus shop they already come to about once a week.

Jim, you are ACES! :D (but you already knew that :)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 01:28:05 PM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline jwc66k

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3638
Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2016, 04:40:38 PM »
FWIW, an $80 rebuild isn't really out of the question either but I do want mine rebuilt, not "exchanged".
A "hint", using a center punch, I made three dimples in the original nose piece of my 66 starter in an innocuous manner. The looked like part of the logo cast in the metal. I also stressed I wanted this starter rebuilt, no exchange PERIOD. On one of my other cars, a previous owner had the carburetor rebuilt. The shop did an exchange, a C5ZF-D 65 Mustang 289 AT, was replaced by a C1AE-AH 61 Ford 390 AT. They did keep the original tag.
Bottom line, tell the shop what you want (get it in writing), and if they won't guarantee that, go elsewhere.
Jim
I promise to be politically correct in all my posts to keep the BBBB from vociferating.

Offline 67gtasanjose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3006
  • "Take the MUSTANG PLEDGE"
Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2016, 06:16:02 AM »
I got my starter back yesterday. Hand picked up and hand delivered by the local, Cleveland rebuilder (Custom Electric Service, they are about 60 miles away). All work done for a mere $65

I am impressed with their willingness to work with me on Concours details (regarding painting) but we lost out on discussing the cardboard or paper gasket detail because of the primary issue inside about the field winding insulation. They ended up using another core 'body' instead of the one I sent because of the difficulty in removing the windings for replacing them. They did return my original nose cone, strap and abendix cover. Per our discussion, he was able to find in his core pile a Concours correct case "without stampings" as required for an early 67 year model so I am please with the results. They sent it back with a light coat of grey primer, avoiding spraying onto the nose cone housing and cable stud. (I'll paint it myself with my next batch of semi-gloss black parts)

Now, back to the band or strap gasket material issue. I'll give them a phone call and see if they have a product they use. They DID install a gasket under the abendix cover and my understanding is that is "concours correct" but maybe we should discuss this too?

« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 08:05:52 AM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline Bob Gaines

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4319
Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2016, 10:15:01 AM »
I am sure no one will notice but the gasket looks like it is a little narrow to me . That is a suggestion for next time . The ones I have seen are not the exact width as the band and hang out a little on each side if perfectly centered . With that said they are typically not seen perfectly centered. I would give it a pass.Good job.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline caspian65

  • Charles Turner
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5852
Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2016, 10:49:56 AM »
What about the terminal attaching nuts?  I'm used to seeing thin with star washer, same style as used on the solenoid.
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
Concours Mustang Forum Admin

Offline 67gtasanjose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3006
  • "Take the MUSTANG PLEDGE"
Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2016, 11:22:09 AM »
What about the terminal attaching nuts? I'm used to seeing thin with star washer, same style as used on the solenoid.

Correct. I am understanding this is true also. I put this particular nut onto it when I bench-tested it. (not correct). I should have removed it for pictures

Willing to solicit other observations BEFORE I shoot the semi-gloss paint. Particularly suggestions about the gasket under the band, what best material to use there.
The gasket under the cover looks to be cork. I assume that is correct?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 11:24:29 AM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline 67gtasanjose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3006
  • "Take the MUSTANG PLEDGE"
Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2016, 11:31:30 AM »
UPDATE:

I called the starter shop and they named the "paper" (not cardboard) material. Nomex 410 paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XNomex+paper.TRS0&_nkw=Nomex+paper&_sacat=0

I'll be getting a foot long piece of it from the starter shop next Monday on the delivery route ;)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 11:34:45 AM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline Bob Gaines

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4319
Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2016, 02:15:25 PM »
UPDATE:

I called the starter shop and they named the "paper" (not cardboard) material. Nomex 410 paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XNomex+paper.TRS0&_nkw=Nomex+paper&_sacat=0

I'll be getting a foot long piece of it from the starter shop next Monday on the delivery route ;)
i get gasket paper/material from the auto parts stores . It is not Cork.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline Bob Gaines

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4319
Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2016, 02:42:26 PM »
I would also like to point out to those reading a detail that is overlooked. The factory style square opening plug is commonly replaced by rebuilders with a Phillips head style plug. It is highly visible if you are expecting to see it. The placement of the ink stamp should be more centered on the case near the top on the post side. There is some variation between starters to be sure , just not all the way to the edge of the nose where it may end up when trying to make it easily seen from above looking down . That was not typical.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline 67gtasanjose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3006
  • "Take the MUSTANG PLEDGE"
Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2016, 02:52:59 PM »
I would also like to point out to those reading a detail that is overlooked. The factory style square opening plug is commonly replaced by rebuilders with a Phillips head style plug. It is highly visible if you are expecting to see it. The placement of the ink stamp should be more centered on the case near the top on the post side. There is some variation between starters to be sure , just not all the way to the edge of the nose where it may end up when trying to make it easily seen from above looking down . That was not typical.

Thanks Bob, all "details" are being considered on my restore of the starter. My take on this is that the ink stamp should be much where it is placed (more or less) as in the image 1st shown of the I-6 200 starter used earlier in the thread (and again used here for reference).

2nd, is there a typical direction the screw bolt holding the strap on, or, is there a right way or wrong way that it should be facing? The one sent back from the starter shop is backwards to the "original unrestored" shown here from the 6 cylinder car.
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments