Author Topic: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material  (Read 3730 times)

Offline Mike_B_SVT

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2016, 05:55:40 PM »
Out of curiosity, did you happen to measure the thickness of the original Nomex paper?  That might help others get the right material in the future.

Thanks for the great info and details!
Mike B.

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Built: Dearborn, Oct 6th, 1969
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Online 67gtasanjose

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2016, 06:35:48 PM »
Out of curiosity, did you happen to measure the thickness of the original Nomex paper?  That might help others get the right material in the future.

Thanks for the great info and details!

15 inches by 1-3/8 inches wide but unknown about the thickness
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
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Offline Scott302

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2016, 07:29:44 PM »
Thought there might be an opportunity to make a unique new part so I spent some time tearing apart a few starters I had laying around to create a prototype.  None had the paper intact but I was able to find remnants of the piece.  The thought of Nomex paper sounded interesting so I grabbed one of the pieces and took a lighter to it.  It immediately caught fire and burned.  Nomex wouldn't do that.  That's the charred piece on the right of the first image. 
Looking at the pieces the color looked a lot like a manilla folder so I dug one out of the files and started cutting.  I measured all the pieces that looked whole and came up with thicknesses ranging from .012" to .018" so I settled on .015" as being a good average and a thickness that is available in the Nomex paper. The folder is .010".  A little thin but it's what I had laying around.  I didn't have the overall length so I made this one 14" x 1 3/8".  Paper clipped that to the band and marked the areas to trim out. 
Cheers,
Scott

« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 07:32:05 PM by Scott302 »
Scott Halseth
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National Parts Depot
MCA#01776

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2016, 08:24:49 PM »
Thought there might be an opportunity to make a unique new part so I spent some time tearing apart a few starters I had laying around to create a prototype.  None had the paper intact but I was able to find remnants of the piece.  The thought of Nomex paper sounded interesting so I grabbed one of the pieces and took a lighter to it.  It immediately caught fire and burned.  Nomex wouldn't do that.  That's the charred piece on the right of the first image. 
Looking at the pieces the color looked a lot like a manilla folder so I dug one out of the files and started cutting.  I measured all the pieces that looked whole and came up with thicknesses ranging from .012" to .018" so I settled on .015" as being a good average and a thickness that is available in the Nomex paper. The folder is .010".  A little thin but it's what I had laying around.  I didn't have the overall length so I made this one 14" x 1 3/8".  Paper clipped that to the band and marked the areas to trim out. 
Cheers,
Scott
Scott, although manila folder paper is a inexpensive alternative I think the thin gasket paper would hold up better to the elements and is inexpensive too. The thickness compares favorably compared to the NOS starters with gaskets still intact I have. It is not as inexpensive as cut up folder paper but still relative inexpensive all the same. Being painted as it would be on a completed starter would help protect even the folder paper some . The gasket paper would be given much more added protection as it is a more durable material to begin with. Just my observations. Others may have different.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline preaction

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2016, 09:14:05 PM »
Great detail thanks for the research and posting.
8R02S125064- January 6 1968  SJ   7F93S591808 - April 28 1967  Dearborn   7F91S544039 - December 17 1966 Dearborn

Offline Scott302

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2016, 02:16:58 PM »
As I mentioned I was creating a prototype.  The intent was to see what the part would look like and what it takes to make them.  My apologies to all if it seemed like I was promoting a manila folder as the material to create a correct reproduction.  I realize that I did not make that obvious in my post.
Upon closer examination of the pieces I pulled out and the remnants still on the starters it seems like the paper areas exposed to the "windows" of the starter case and the internal windings show some signs of extreme heat.  The thought of the paper burning alone (as I tried in my original post) is enough to keep me from supplying the part in a form other than using some kind of heat resistant material regardless of how correct it may be.  The idea of using the Nomex paper would be the only way I could consider it.  The problem then becomes the cost of the Nomex paper.  Just doing some quick calculations shows the material cost alone would be $2.00 or more.  On top of that would be the cost of the die, manufacturing and profit.  Not sure the market would support it with enough volume knowing now how easy it is to do on your own using readily available materials.

Regards,
Scott
Scott Halseth
Ford Product Manager
National Parts Depot
MCA#01776

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2016, 04:11:37 PM »
As I mentioned I was creating a prototype.  The intent was to see what the part would look like and what it takes to make them.  My apologies to all if it seemed like I was promoting a manila folder as the material to create a correct reproduction.  I realize that I did not make that obvious in my post.
Upon closer examination of the pieces I pulled out and the remnants still on the starters it seems like the paper areas exposed to the "windows" of the starter case and the internal windings show some signs of extreme heat.  The thought of the paper burning alone (as I tried in my original post) is enough to keep me from supplying the part in a form other than using some kind of heat resistant material regardless of how correct it may be.  The idea of using the Nomex paper would be the only way I could consider it.  The problem then becomes the cost of the Nomex paper.  Just doing some quick calculations shows the material cost alone would be $2.00 or more.  On top of that would be the cost of the die, manufacturing and profit.  Not sure the market would support it with enough volume knowing now how easy it is to do on your own using readily available materials.

Regards,
Scott
I suspect the paper gets french fried by exhaust heat every bit as much as heat from extended starting attempts.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2016, 04:26:22 PM »
Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? I did an internet search using "electric motor insulation paper" and this is the first site -
http://www.eis-inc.com/products/electrical-insulating-materials/
There are more.
A pattern is a good idea, but don't use ordinary materials.
Jim
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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2016, 03:40:59 PM »
I ended up going with about 14 1/2 inches.
I wasn't sure where to put the overlap so I put that at the bottom of the starter in case anything needs to drain out.

The Nomex material provided by my starter Rebuilder is approximately 4 mil thick (like posterboard)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 03:57:41 PM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

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Online 67gtasanjose

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2016, 06:13:35 PM »
OK painted.
Please let me know where else I can improve the workmanship.

I know about the onk stam (working on it)

I know about the correct cable nut.

Any other suggestions?
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
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Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2016, 06:20:11 PM »
OK painted.
Please let me know where else I can improve the workmanship.

I know about the onk stam (working on it)

I know about the correct cable nut.

Any other suggestions?
A little too much paint on the block side end IMO. Maybe next time no so much . That end typically doesn't have that much paint. Just what I have seen.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2016, 07:15:25 PM »
A little too much paint on the block side end IMO. Maybe next time no so much . That end typically doesn't have that much paint. Just what I have seen.

Could you elaborate? By "block side", do you mean the nose end nearest the bellhousing or the back side against the block? (pictures don't really show the back side) I had read elsewhere the black faded out at the nose cone however with an effort to cover the body of the starter up to the aluminum nose cone the transition may have gotten heavy.

This is one detail I haven't really seen enough pictures of what we ought to do, only descriptions that I have read and a few unrestored pictures that are not very clear to interpret.
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2016, 08:13:16 PM »
Could you elaborate? By "block side", do you mean the nose end nearest the bellhousing or the back side against the block? (pictures don't really show the back side) I had read elsewhere the black faded out at the nose cone however with an effort to cover the body of the starter up to the aluminum nose cone the transition may have gotten heavy.

This is one detail I haven't really seen enough pictures of what we ought to do, only descriptions that I have read and a few unrestored pictures that are not very clear to interpret.
Yes, a little too heavy at the nose cone or what I called block side even though it technically is bolting to the bellhousing. The point was to not get paint that far up which might hinder grounding. I know that you have it nice and clean on the flange portion that actually makes contact with the bellhousing/block but the minimal paint overspray at the forward section is typically just how they were when new.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2016, 08:30:25 PM »
Think we've discussed the paint details in other threads but here are a couple of examples Do have and have seen some where the outer edges of the mating surface to the black is almost bare of any black paint but as we can see not always.



Jeff Speegle

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Online 67gtasanjose

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2016, 08:52:55 PM »
Yes, a little too heavy at the nose cone or what I called block side even though it technically is bolting to the bellhousing. The point was to not get paint that far up which might hinder grounding. I know that you have it nice and clean on the flange portion that actually makes contact with the bellhousing/block but the minimal paint overspray at the forward section is typically just how they were when new.


Think we've discussed the paint details in other threads but here are a couple of examples Do have and have seen some where the outer edges of the mating surface to the black is almost bare of any black paint but as we can see not always.






Thanks for the input from both of you. BOB, I think I get what you are saying yet Jeff's images are what I had pictured with my "mind's eye" as I read other threads and is very close to what I tried to reproduce.

If I understand this right, (going on Bob's description) "typically", the overspray, though not masked off, just barely makes it onto the nose cone, not as much as what is seen in Jeff's pictures (again, typically).

It's not impossible for me to remove the paint on just the nose cone (it's a Ditzler Lacquer base, gun-sprayed) but is it really worth it, if I might ask? In person, the transition is somewhat thin, transparent in areas.
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments