Author Topic: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material  (Read 3730 times)

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2016, 10:33:28 PM »
If I understand this right, (going on Bob's description) "typically", the overspray, though not masked off, just barely makes it onto the nose cone, not as much as what is seen in Jeff's pictures (again, typically).

Have found them with a little or allot of fade or overspray on the aluminum section. Believe they wanted to make sure that the iron housing was painted to reduce rust developing and not sure how small a gun or pattern was used to make sure the lip that faces the tip or end of the starter was coated but not too much paint got on the mounting area. Believe that most of the grounding took place between the other side of the aluminum section and the face of the engine plate (sandwiched between the engine and transmission) and we accept the fact that the mounting bolts would have broken through the lightly painted surface providing a more positive and secondary ground.


Of course in cleaning originals we likely removed at least 50% of the light black overspray from the aluminum section this could explain why some have less than the uninstalled units we see examples of above. Just what I'm seeing and have seen - opinions vary :)  but I think we're looking for a range rather than an exact pattern or amount.  For this and me noticeable fade = good. Just remember to do the engine plate also.
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2016, 12:50:06 AM »


Thanks for the input from both of you. BOB, I think I get what you are saying yet Jeff's images are what I had pictured with my "mind's eye" as I read other threads and is very close to what I tried to reproduce.

If I understand this right, (going on Bob's description) "typically", the overspray, though not masked off, just barely makes it onto the nose cone, not as much as what is seen in Jeff's pictures (again, typically).

It's not impossible for me to remove the paint on just the nose cone (it's a Ditzler Lacquer base, gun-sprayed) but is it really worth it, if I might ask? In person, the transition is somewhat thin, transparent in areas.
You asked and I gave my opinion because you asked.   If you want to resist that is fine too. I did say "maybe next time"because I didn't think it would be worth the trouble .  Just not what I am used to seeing.    In your case , too much paint can be mistaken for wrong because it may be misinterpreted as being totally painted  where as less paint ,as in a more distinct contrast between the fade is unlikely to be be mistaken .   Again just my opinion.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Online 67gtasanjose

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2016, 05:45:24 AM »
Thanks again guys, all of your opinions matter since the goal here is to obtain the "most correct" understanding to not only help myself, but others too that may be reading along.

Maybe time to put this one to rest. I began with what I thought would be a simple starter overhaul and paint job and managed to make a mountain out of a molehill.

SUMMARY: Doing the job all myself was the original plan but as indicated earlier, the internal windings (field coils) were frayed & tattered so the "cleaned" parts went to a local rebuilder who switched out the main body of the starter with another donor core and assembled the starter. Knowing I was wishing to obtain a concours painted finish, the rebuilder simply primered the body of the stater. Upon receiving the starter back, I noticed no gasket material under the band  (the basic root of this thread), I asked the shop what product was typically used there. This shop claimed they typically would use Nomex material for areas like this on an "as-needed" basis. (the strip measures aprox 14-1/2" x 1-1/2" x 4 mil thick) and sent me a strip to use. I trimmed the provided Nomex strip, installed it under the strap and spray-gun painted it semi-gloss black lacquer myself, following my best understanding of details seen in other threads. Hind sight being 20/20, I could probably have used a smaller paint gun (or puff-bomb, rattle can) instead to have ended up with a little less overspray on the nose cone mounting flange. I've since removed the light coat of overspray on some of the mounting flanges of the nose cone using a small brass wire-brush, then I masked off the main body of the now already black starter and edged in a lighter coat, fading in a bit closer to what Bob usually sees and what pictures Jeff provided earlier. I feel I'm now a lot closer to ready for the ink stamp (still working on details for that)

I hope this thread helps others who step out into this job as a do-it-yourselfer. Thanks again for all of the input of experience.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 12:54:12 PM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline Richard P.

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2016, 03:37:30 PM »
I have two questions. Is the starter in the picture posting # 29 for a 1965/66 Mustang? Does correct the top cover for the coil pull-in (held in place by the band) look like the one in the picture? I thought the top cover was made a little different. I could be wrong.

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2016, 04:53:57 PM »
Does correct the top cover for the coil pull-in (held in place by the band) look like the one in the picture? I thought the top cover was made a little different. I could be wrong.
I have the same question. My original 66 starter (San Jose, Oct 65, 289) does not have the extra "hump" on the Bendix cover. The replacement starter I installed while mine was being rebuilt, a C7AF-11101-B, has the "hump". The C7AF was a store bought rebuilt so it could have a later cover. Any idea about the cover changeover?
Jim
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Offline Richard P.

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2016, 05:50:57 PM »
I have the same question. My original 66 starter (San Jose, Oct 65, 289) does not have the extra "hump" on the Bendix cover. The replacement starter I installed while mine was being rebuilt, a C7AF-11101-B, has the "hump". The C7AF was a store bought rebuilt so it could have a later cover. Any idea about the cover changeover?
Jim
I don't have the capability of doing this, but could you post a picture of your top cover so that I can compare it with what I have.

Offline edwardgt350

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2017, 10:15:27 PM »
any updates for the correct 1966 stamp?
for april 1 car build date, what date should the starter be stamped?

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2017, 10:28:55 PM »
any updates for the correct 1966 stamp?

Not sure what sort of updates were being waited for. Beleive its been discussed, style and design documented through the original shown on the site and people who wanted to have made or purchased stamps for their projects


for april 1 car build date, what date should the starter be stamped?

Since real build dates are only a guess for the 65-6 cars to be safe you are best IMHO to pick a date approx 2 months prior to the guessed upon date your car was built. This also tends to fit the limited information we have comparing the two since most starters have been changed, rebuilt or painted over the last 50 or so years
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline edwardgt350

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2017, 01:24:22 AM »
was mainly curious as to what material is preferred as the gasket/insulating material under the rear band.

Online 196667Bob

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2017, 05:15:16 AM »
There is a lot of great information contained in this Thread. However, I am a little confused ; most of the "talk" is about 1965-66's, yet I know Richard has a '67. To what years does this information apply ?
I also am particularly interested in the "all black" (except for the cone) paint. I have seen many, many starters that have natural colored bands, plunger covers and end caps. Is the difference Factory versus Service Parts, or ?

Thanks,

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2017, 05:34:33 AM »
was mainly curious as to what material is preferred as the gasket/insulating material under the rear band.

Sorry saw the question about the stamp and possible date. Didn't see any reference to the gasket

As for the gasket, since its painted, the exact material may not be as important as the look. I've used thin gasket (cardboard) material in the past, paper bag or covers from Hemmings in a pinch


There is a lot of great information contained in this Thread. However, I am a little confused ; most of the "talk" is about 1965-66's, yet I know Richard has a '67. To what years does this information apply ?

Have "gaskets" on starters up into 1969 built ones at least



I also am particularly interested in the "all black" (except for the cone) paint. I have seen many, many starters that have natural colored bands, plunger covers and end caps. Is the difference Factory versus Service Parts, or ?

Where have you seen these starters?  I've seen tons finished that was in rebuild boxes at parts stores, selling at swap meets and on cars that were suppose to be restored but not on original cars nor in Ford service boxes. Not sure if all the "factory rebuilt" ones were finished as they originally were

 Have allot of pictures of the last two, markings are different as well as other details on service replacements
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 05:38:10 AM by J_Speegle »
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2017, 05:36:57 AM »
was mainly curious as to what material is preferred as the gasket/insulating material under the rear band.

Since its painted the exact material may not be as important as the look. I've used thin gasket (cardboard) material in the past, paper bag or covers from Hemmings in a pinch
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Online 67gtasanjose

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2017, 06:21:30 AM »
was mainly curious as to what material is preferred as the gasket/insulating material under the rear band.

UPDATE:

I called the starter shop and they named the "paper" (not cardboard) material. Nomex 410 paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XNomex+paper.TRS0&_nkw=Nomex+paper&_sacat=0

I'll be getting a foot long piece of it from the starter shop next Monday on the delivery route ;)

I agree that the actual material is likely not as important as to what it is made out of originally since we are usually NOT driving these cars on a daily basis anymore. I believe the idea behind using a Nomex paper was more intended to be used only because it has a fire-resistant nature...even though materials such as gasket material are not likely a source of any fire under ordinary situations. (in the outside chance of a starter shorting out internally to ground, catching fire)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 06:31:06 AM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Online 196667Bob

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2017, 11:02:17 AM »

Where have you seen these starters?  I've seen tons finished that was in rebuild boxes at parts stores, selling at swap meets and on cars that were suppose to be restored but not on original cars nor in Ford service boxes. Not sure if all the "factory rebuilt" ones were finished as they originally were

 Have allot of pictures of the last two, markings are different as well as other details on service replacements

Well, obviously, I haven't seen many "original cars" over the last 40 years. Your comment about the paint being this way on original cars confirms the premise that I noted on such, plus your addition of most, if not all Service Replacements, and some Factory Rebuilt Starters, just adds to the knowledge.

I purchased and installed a Factory Rebuilt Starter from Ford in the mid 80's (it has a "C7TZ" body with a "D2" cone, and it came with a plain (not even plated) steel band, plunger cover and end.

So, generally then, all of the info in this thread would apply to 1965-69 Mustangs ; is that correct ?

Thanks for the clarifications.

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67

Online 196667Bob

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Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2017, 12:17:29 PM »
Thanks Richard. That is the kind of "thing" I was looking for - just how much of all of this info is applicable to what years.
Per Jeff's statement in regard to the paper strip under the band, it sounds like that applies to all 1965-69, as does the painted all black with fading at the attaching flange/ cone.

Also, in looking at the MPC's, it appears that the Cork Plunger Cover Gasket was used into the 70's.

Any other "nuances" for these years would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67