Author Topic: Concours judging concensious question  (Read 1125 times)

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2017, 04:57:56 PM »
.....Minor pitting of undercarriage components in trailered concours is usually not scrutinized.  .........

Will have to disagree defects, damage and so on is not the goal for a restored class. But of course we're both looking this from different vantage points  ;)
Jeff Speegle

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Offline PerkinsRestoration

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2017, 06:21:31 PM »
Will have to disagree defects, damage and so on is not the goal for a restored class. But of course we're both looking this from different vantage points  ;)

 Jeff, I never implied defects and damage is a goal for any restored class. Most Fifty year old cars and parts have minor pitting. I doubt you have ever judged a Div.II or trailered concours car without some pitted parts. I don't know why you think we are looking at this from different vantage points. I think I use common sense and follow club guidelines. I understand I put more emphasis on paint and body than most judges that do not have a paint and body backround,however most major car club venues  put a substantial emphasis on P&B long before you and I had any input.

Offline TLea

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2017, 10:03:48 AM »

  What I said is in THB class pitted parts or lack of date codes or stamping marks due to filling of pitted metal is not concours correct. In trailered concours class date codes and stamping marks in metal are not scrutinized. Minor pitting of undercarriage components in trailered concours is usually not scrutinized.  If you start with a rusty pitted undercarriage you either have pitted sheet metal or sheet metal filled with filler and primer with no visible date codes or stamping marks. Same applies for axle housings, backing plates, 3rd members, disc brake parts etc.  For these reasons rusty cars are not good candidates for a Thoroughbred restoration.
Actually this is what you did say,
"Even painted parts such as rear axle housings if pitted and pits filled you loose the stamping marks in the metal. Not an issue in trailered concours but an issue in THB class."
My question was for clarification so we can be consistent with judging. You said in your response to Jeff "consistent with MCA guidelines", where is the guidelines written that states minor (or any) visible pitting is acceptable? Same with excessive fiiler pimer or plastic filler that alters the physical appearance? This goes for in undercarriage and body and paint? Is there written guidelines for when outer body has lost its crispness due to excessive fill? I have read rule book and see nothing stated.
Tim Lea  Shelby concours judge MCA, SAAC, Mid America

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2017, 10:21:49 AM »
What Bob is referring to are the manufacturing marks/details from when the parts or panels were originally manufactured.  These are found on inner fender panels and other areas.  Also, like on the rear axle housing.  Those witness/stretch marks will be scrutinized more when judging a Div1/T-bred vs. concours.

I don't believe it is ever acceptable for noticeable pitting on any part to get a pass in concours class, it ought to at least get a comment, depending on the points allowed for the item.
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
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Offline PerkinsRestoration

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2017, 11:38:15 AM »
Actually this is what you did say,
"Even painted parts such as rear axle housings if pitted and pits filled you loose the stamping marks in the metal. Not an issue in trailered concours but an issue in THB class."
 

Tim, I'll tell you one more time in more layman terms, rust pitted parts ,or pitted parts that are filled with  "bondo" or heavy primer surfacers which fill the pits as well as date codes and stamping marks in the metal is not acceptable in Thoroughbred class. In the Trailered concours class date codes and stamping marks are not scrutinized like Thoroughbred class.  You might try moving up to the THB class rather than trying to pic and choose some THB  standards for Div.II classes. I guess you need to restore a real Thoroughbred Authentity award car to fully understand the difference. 

Offline TLea

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2017, 11:46:56 AM »
 Bob. Your typical condescending remarks are as expected. If you saw my post it was very clear what I was asking and you have evaded the answer. Charles seems to understand it and chose to  answer it successfully so maybe you should try one more time to listen
 No one needs to move from one class to another to understand or answer a simple question. The question was are pits acceptable  in Concourse trailer? Youíve already answered whether they are acceptable in thorobred. Is that too hard to understand?
Ps.  Iíve done more than my share of what you call thorough bred in SAAC  and are very familiar with the differences
Tim Lea  Shelby concours judge MCA, SAAC, Mid America

Offline PerkinsRestoration

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2017, 12:12:11 PM »
 Tim , You don't have a Thoroughbred unless you have the  MCA document to show you won the Award. It's not cool to imply you have won an award you have not. ;) You need to reread Charles post as he gets it. Charles also has multiple THB authenticity awards. :) 

Offline TLea

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2017, 12:42:45 PM »
  It's not cool to imply you have won an award you have not. ;)
I don't believe I did. Anyway the conversation has been deflected off the subject. As I said I was looking for clarification on pitting in trailered and t bred cars for the purpose of consistency. The answer has been avoided
Tim Lea  Shelby concours judge MCA, SAAC, Mid America

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2017, 01:21:22 PM »
I'm gonna jump in here If I may.

I have been around "Concours Judging" for over 17 years and just 4 years ago I received my Gold card status.  IMHO, I have seen WAY to many Gold cards in the past several years, especially some of the old school gold cards, judging a Concours Trailered/Driven car similar to a thoroughbred. TOTALLY different classes. I have seen judges recently, before I became Gold status, still continually looking for engineering numbers, part numbers, etc., on a Concours judged Mustang. And I have seen it even continue through 2017.

Concours trailered/driven classes are not supposed to be even attempted to be judged like a T-bred class where, for the most part, engineering/parts numbers are, for the most part, the difference.  I do firmly agree with Marty R, for example, if there is an engineering number that is blatantly wrong on a concours Mustang and as a Judge you know that number is wrong, then Yes, It should be counted off. But in concours trailered/driven classes where reproduced parts are excepted given that they have the same fit, finish and operation as originals, that's where I see some of the Gold card Judges not following the guidelines of the concours judged Mustang.
Lol, and I have seen/heard some of these concours Mustangs Judged that way, and not coming back to an MCA show just for that reason.

But, this same argument has been going on for years now.

***ALL COMMENTS HERE ARE MY OPINION AND WHAT I HAVE SEEN THROUGH MY EYES OVER THE YEARS***

Richie


Offline TLea

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2017, 01:51:29 PM »


I don't believe it is ever acceptable for noticeable pitting on any part to get a pass in concours class, it ought to at least get a comment, depending on the points allowed for the item.
Thank you Charles for answering
Tim Lea  Shelby concours judge MCA, SAAC, Mid America

Offline mikeljgt500kr

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2017, 02:16:27 PM »
I'm gonna jump in here If I may.

I have been around "Concours Judging" for over 17 years and just 4 years ago I received my Gold card status.  IMHO, I have seen WAY to many Gold cards in the past several years, especially some of the old school gold cards, judging a Concours Trailered/Driven car similar to a thoroughbred. TOTALLY different classes. I have seen judges recently, before I became Gold status, still continually looking for engineering numbers, part numbers, etc., on a Concours judged Mustang. And I have seen it even continue through 2017.

Concours trailered/driven classes are not supposed to be even attempted to be judged like a T-bred class where, for the most part, engineering/parts numbers are, for the most part, the difference.  I do firmly agree with Marty R, for example, if there is an engineering number that is blatantly wrong on a concours Mustang and as a Judge you know that number is wrong, then Yes, It should be counted off. But in concours trailered/driven classes where reproduced parts are excepted given that they have the same fit, finish and operation as originals, that's where I see some of the Gold card Judges not following the guidelines of the concours judged Mustang.
Lol, and I have seen/heard some of these concours Mustangs Judged that way, and not coming back to an MCA show just for that reason.

But, this same argument has been going on for years now.

***ALL COMMENTS HERE ARE MY OPINION AND WHAT I HAVE SEEN THROUGH MY EYES OVER THE YEARS***

Richie

Well said, thank you!
I don't always downshift, but when I do it is near a Prius so they can hear me hurting the environment.

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2017, 03:49:48 PM »
Concours trailered/driven classes are not supposed to be even attempted to be judged like a T-bred class where, for the most part, engineering/parts numbers are, for the most part, the difference.  I do firmly agree with Marty R, for example, if there is an engineering number that is blatantly wrong on a concours Mustang and as a Judge you know that number is wrong, then Yes, It should be counted off. But in concours trailered/driven classes where reproduced parts are excepted given that they have the same fit, finish and operation as originals, that's where I see some of the Gold card Judges not following the guidelines of the concours judged Mustang.
Lol, and I have seen/heard some of these concours Mustangs Judged that way, and not coming back to an MCA show just for that reason.

A lot of folks seem to get upset that their car is getting judged 'like a thoroughbred', but when they get their judging sheets, they realize that a lot of things they thought were getting deducted for are actually comments with no deductions.  The judging process is just as much about helping the owner make their car better as it is an evaluation measured against a judging standard.  Owners that are in it for just the award, miss this totally and are usually the ones that leave and don't come back.

I have seen many concours cars get judged incorrectly, including cars I restored myself.  Most of the time, it wasn't that the judges were judging the car like a t-bred, it was because they were just downright wrong.  I have judging sheets where something was deducted for, yet it was the opposite of what was typed on the judging sheets.  The other extreme is where judges are heavy-handed on the points and not weighing the total points allowed per item.  For instance, taking a full point off on a distributor because the hold down bolt isn't the correct style or finish.  For a 2-3 point category, it makes no sense.

When I was MCA NHJ, a lot of focus was on consistency in judging.  We made the annual Judge's Meeting about training and improving consistency.  Unfortunately, that has gone backwards since I stepped down.  Only with training will judging ever improve.  OTJ training only helps so much and can actually perpetuate incorrect judging habits, there has to be more.

Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2017, 07:59:48 PM »
A lot of folks seem to get upset that their car is getting judged 'like a thoroughbred', but when they get their judging sheets, they realize that a lot of things they thought were getting deducted for are actually comments with no deductions.  The judging process is just as much about helping the owner make their car better as it is an evaluation measured against a judging standard.  Owners that are in it for just the award, miss this totally and are usually the ones that leave and don't come back.

I have seen many concours cars get judged incorrectly, including cars I restored myself.  Most of the time, it wasn't that the judges were judging the car like a t-bred, it was because they were just downright wrong.  I have judging sheets where something was deducted for, yet it was the opposite of what was typed on the judging sheets.  The other extreme is where judges are heavy-handed on the points and not weighing the total points allowed per item.  For instance, taking a full point off on a distributor because the hold down bolt isn't the correct style or finish.  For a 2-3 point category, it makes no sense.

When I was MCA NHJ, a lot of focus was on consistency in judging.  We made the annual Judge's Meeting about training and improving consistency.  Unfortunately, that has gone backwards since I stepped down.  Only with training will judging ever improve.  OTJ training only helps so much and can actually perpetuate incorrect judging habits, there has to be more.
I'm going to just comment on your first sentence, and I won't further comment on this thread. WRONG!!!  I know for a fact that in the 69-70 concours class that a lot of folks were/are getting deductions and NOT just comments on the sheets where a comment would've been sufficient. And ALL the gold cards, and I'm speaking only from my knowledge of the 69-70 concours classes, should know NOT to judge a concours like a thoroughbred looking for engineering and/or part numbers. They should know better. I was taught NOT to judge a concours like a T-bred, and I don't.

That's it!!  No more comments from me!!
Merry Christmas to All

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2017, 08:12:41 PM »
Richie, my post wasn't intended to start anything, just stating my personal observations.  I've judged at over 60 MCA national events and judged with all types of judges.  Maybe they were too scared to speak up, but I honestly have not run into what you've described.  I've mainly only heard of owners complaining that 'their concours car was being judged like a thoroughbred'.

If you have real examples with documented proof to share, I am sure the MCA head judges would like to hear from you. 
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
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