Author Topic: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage  (Read 5806 times)

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« on: June 26, 2014, 07:29:22 AM »
I have searched the forum, but no luck finding my answer. It seems everyone has to have seen the frame rails on many early Mustang's damaged from jacking or use of jackstands. Mine is no different. All along the bottom side of the front frame rails, portions are pushed up maybe as much as 1/4 inch in spots.
It there a prefered way to work these out that requires little filler to finish? I have thought of different ideas, but there MUST be a "best way" to do this.

Richard
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline mtinkham

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2014, 01:27:42 PM »
Richard,

One approach would be to drill a series of holes in the toe board and/or floor pan just above the area that is damaged.  Then, use an appropriately sized rod to gently tap the metal back into position.  Once you have the frame rails straight, you could plug weld the drilled holes in the floor.  I am sure other members will have suggestions for you, too.  Good luck.  Mark
1967 S-code Fastback, GT, 3-speed manual, Metuchen, Scheduled 04-21-1967 - Actual 04-25-1967

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2014, 01:56:22 PM »
Richard,

One approach would be to drill a series of holes in the toe board and/or floor pan just above the area that is damaged.  Then, use an appropriately sized rod to gently tap the metal back into position.  Once you have the frame rails straight, you could plug weld the drilled holes in the floor.  I am sure other members will have suggestions for you, too.  Good luck.  Mark
A  good idea  !! As good of a idea as it is it not the best for all cases because it is not guaranteed to address all of the possible problems especially on a frame rail with a lot of damage. Best way is to cut out the sheet metal in the narrow section above the rail for the most access to the problem. After the fix the sheet metal can be welded back as before. It doesn't necessarily have to be dressed that well as it will be covered by the carpet.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 02:00:05 PM by Bob Gaines »
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Offline krelboyne

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2014, 03:14:10 PM »
There is another way.

Body shops weld pins to sections of metal and use a slide hammer type of tool to pull the dents out. At the completion of the job, the pins break off nearly flush. It would be a lot less invasive. You could probably google it on youtube.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 03:15:48 PM by krelboyne »
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Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2014, 03:42:15 PM »
...Best way is to cut out the sheet metal in the narrow section above the rail for the most access to the problem. After the fix the sheet metal can be welded back as before. It doesn't necessarily have to be dressed that well as it will be covered by the carpet.
This was ONE of the ideas but my archival training that says to "not do any damage" conflicts the idea (but yes, I have to get to it SOMEHOW)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 03:50:09 PM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

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Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2014, 03:48:49 PM »
There is another way.

Body shops weld pins to sections of metal and use a slide hammer type of tool to pull the dents out. At the completion of the job, the pins break off nearly flush. It would be a lot less invasive.

Probably what I intended on trying, but buying a tool for a few hour work, and then who knows how long before I need it again. (yet I am not sure how good it will pull this gauge of steel) I was thinking this approach could work with several "nails" spotted in and applying heat with a torch, (using the slip-grip attachment to move back and forth between the "nails")

Something like this is available at Harbor Freight. Has anybody bought one?

Richard

Here's a few reviews, anybody else use one for this EXACT task?
http://www.harborfreight.com/stud-welder-dent-repair-kit-98357.html

The car is on it's side on the rotisserie, so it it really easy to get to all sides of this at this time.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 04:07:27 PM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline 67gta289

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2014, 05:14:50 PM »
I've done AOTA (all of the above) and they all have their place.  The stud welder/dent puller works where the dent is "kindler and gentler".  If there are particularly hard dents (like those when a car is dropped on a jack stand or hit a curb) the strategically placed hole method or the cut out method Bob mentioned is what is needed because the stud welds won't do the job.   

Talking through the cut out method in more detail, I get the thinnest cut off wheel that I can find, removing the least amount of material.  Then cut one long and two short sides.  Next I fold the metal over on the one long side not cut.  This provides full access and you can do the best job over a large area.  When done fold the metal back down and weld it up.  With the one side uncut it will be perfecly placed, and with a thin cut the job goes easy.  The weld clean up really is up to you as to how nice you make it.

I've used 3x3x1/4" angle iron supported by hydraulic jacks to provide something to pound against.  Personally I would get to the point where very little filler is required.  With proper access, proper back support, and some patience you might be surprised how good of a job can be done.

The hole method to me is ok for one or two dents, but depending on the hole size you could have quite a bit of area to cover.  That is why I like the cut and fold method.

If you end up with a rust situation, look out for the replacement rails.  Like most repop stuff, they can't seem to make it right.  I did a pass side front rail and the replacement was 3/4" long, the sheet metal was thicker than original (obvious to the naked eye), and the dolly hole was off 1/2".  Took a lot of prep work to make it look right.
John
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Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2014, 05:21:05 PM »
There is another way.

Body shops weld pins to sections of metal and use a slide hammer type of tool to pull the dents out. At the completion of the job, the pins break off nearly flush. It would be a lot less invasive. You could probably google it on youtube.
The frame rails are much thicker metal then the typical sheet metal this procedure was designed for. You will most likely pop the head off the pins before you pull the dent out of that frame rail metal flat  unlike if you go after it from the back side . I have a shop that I work with that repairs frame rails regularly and speak from experience . 
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2014, 06:00:25 PM »
The frame rails are much thicker metal then the typical sheet metal this procedure was designed for. You will most likely pop the head off the pins before you pull the dent out of that frame rail metal flat  unlike if you go after it from the back side .

That is about what I was thinking too. Thanks Bob.



The stud welder/dent puller works where the dent is "kindler and gentler"... ;)


...I've used 3x3x1/4" angle iron supported by hydraulic jacks to provide something to pound against.  Personally I would get to the point where very little filler is required.  With proper access, proper back support, and some patience you might be surprised how good of a job can be done.

 ;D
And then John's idea with the Angle Iron, I like that idea too. The ones I need to work on are not too awfully deep, but since it IS the thicker metal, I had my doubts what was the best tactic. I have a few select other areas around the car that the dent puller discussed would help out on, so I'll likely get it anyways. Maybe give it a try and when (or if) it fails to help on the frame, I'll move swiftly into plan "B" and/or "C".

Thanks everyone for the input. Everybody's ideas closely matched up with what I was thinking but thought I'd ask from those who have gone there before me. Trying to be the least invasive as I can be.

Richard
Richard Urch

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Offline TLea

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2014, 06:04:26 PM »
The frame rails are much thicker metal then the typical sheet metal this procedure was designed for. You will most likely pop the head off the pins before you pull the dent out of that frame rail metal flat  unlike if you go after it from the back side . I have a shop that I work with that repairs frame rails regularly and speak from experience .
+1. The metal is too thick and studs will break at head
One point to remember, if the metal by dolly holes (#1 and 3 dollies) is bent downward it is most likely from rail ties and IMO considered original
Tim Lea  Shelby concours judge MCA, SAAC, Mid America

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2014, 06:14:57 PM »
+1. The metal is too thick and studs will break at head
One point to remember, if the metal by dolly holes (#1 and 3 dollies) is bent downward it is most likely from rail ties and IMO considered original

Tim, thanks for bringing that up. Some damage is there too, but I was actually going to ask about a torn and welded dolly hole at one of the rear, ahead of axle places. I am sure the frame wasn't ever stretched at a body shop along it's life and the repair (weld) was a bit "cheesy" looking. It looked like it was ripped with a dolly pin somehow to me.

Would anybody care to see an image? It is another undercarriage issue I wondered the best way to repair. I'm not sure if it (the weld) was painted or sealed. I can try cleaning around it some tonight and shoot a picture.

Richard
Richard Urch

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Offline TLea

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2014, 08:05:43 PM »
I've seen them on before but never welded.
Tim Lea  Shelby concours judge MCA, SAAC, Mid America

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2014, 08:26:08 AM »
Just to get an idea what I am working with, here are a few shots of the problem areas, before too much stripping of the surfaces.
You can see the dolly hole that has been welded looks to be welded after the primer/sealer bath. Then you see some stretching or elongated holes at the other center dolly holes. The very front two dolly holes below the radiator and the two back near the rear bumper look normal.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 09:12:38 AM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

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Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2014, 10:31:55 PM »
Just to get an idea what I am working with, here are a few shots of the problem areas, before too much stripping of the surfaces.
You can see the dolly hole that has been welded looks to be welded after the primer/sealer bath........

Bath??   Cheap cars like Mustangs didn't get dipped in primer sealer like the more expensive larger car like T Birds

As for the damage - looks like hundreds I've seen - got tome work ahead of you
Jeff Speegle

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Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Frame Repairing of Jack or Jackstand Damage
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2014, 07:04:38 AM »
Bath??   Cheap cars like Mustangs didn't get dipped in primer sealer like the more expensive larger car like T Birds

As for the damage - looks like hundreds I've seen - got tome work ahead of you

OK, probably wrote that out wrong, the application is such a soaking, maybe I could have written as primer/sealer "shower" to be more accurate.

Jeff, what do you make of the dolly hole damage? In particular the way the holes are stretched and also the repaired (welded) one? Obviously, the damage can all be worked out, but could that damage have occurred on the line somehow?

As i mentioned in a previous comment, I am sure 100% sure this car hasn't made it's way onto any frame equipment that might have used those holes for alignment or pulling purposes.  I myself, have been responsible for all repair and repaint (the good, the bad and the ugly) along the way. This car had all original, un-repaired panels when I first got it, with every shopping cart scratch, ding & dent that 10 years could give to any unrestored original vehicle used in (unloved) daily driving. No sign of fading/unmatching paint touch-ups, or any panel replacement before me, and today, all date codes consistently match on the car, with the only exceptions being parts I know that I have changed. (known original fender, door, hood, quarter-panels, rear valance etc., all have consistant date codes)

As I said, I will more than likely repair all of the damaged areas anyways, but this particular area of damage doesn't seem to match the vehicle history I have on the car by any means. It seems the only explanation I could possibly imagine as having occurred on the line. Maybe not the only one, maybe it is, IDK, but there it is and damage to all 4 holes, 3 rather significant and one to the point of needing welded.

Thanks for any input.
Richard
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments