ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Misc Items => Topic started by: 67gtasanjose on April 22, 2017, 07:46:20 AM
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Having read through many articles and threads, I am still a little confused if there are any previous posts within this forum to ID the variations of this 67-70 master cylinders.
Please guide me if there are (move topic also if need be)
So, we should find these cylinders to have a stop bolt on the bottom, a bendix logo, a Julian date code, the casting number 2227161 in the bottom, the "bump" on the front side of the rear brake outlet port, different caps depending on the year and production month and I am sure other details I failed to mention.
QUESTIONS:
1.) What years used the hex bolt and when (time period approximately) did these hex bolts change over to the Allen bolt?
2.) Does anyone have pictures of original Hex & Allen Bolts?
3.) Where the fittings come out of the housing, are these originally machined surfaces or are some simply "cast" (porous) ?
4.) Bail wire, though painted as an assembly while mounted to the booster, what finish should be on the wire before it is painted?
5.) Numbers stamped into the sides of the cylinders, is there a "code" known on what they are?
Maybe more questions related to this topic will come out, but I felt like I needed to be "schooled" on spotting the "CORRECT" cylinders at a glance. (And likewise an incorrect one "at a glance")
Attached below are a couple pictures of the fitting side & bottom side of a NOS unit, but who knows how "correct" it really is ::)
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Having read through many articles and threads, I am still a little confused if there are any previous posts within this forum to ID the variations of this 67-70 master cylinders.
Please guide me if there are (move topic also if need be)
So, we should find these cylinders to have a stop bolt on the bottom, a bendix logo, a Julian date code, the casting number 2227161 in the bottom, the "bump" on the front side of the rear brake outlet port, different caps depending on the year and production month and I am sure other details I failed to mention.
QUESTIONS:
1.) What years used the hex bolt and when (time period approximately) did these hex bolts change over to the Allen bolt?
2.) Does anyone have pictures of original Hex & Allen Bolts?
3.) Where the fittings come out of the housing, are these originally machined surfaces or are some simply "cast" (porous) ?
4.) Bail wire, though painted as an assembly while mounted to the booster, what finish should be on the wire before it is painted?
5.) Numbers stamped into the sides of the cylinders, is there a "code" known on what they are?
Maybe more questions related to this topic will come out, but I felt like I needed to be "schooled" on spotting the "CORRECT" cylinders at a glance. (And likewise an incorrect one "at a glance")
Attached below are a couple pictures of the fitting side & bottom side of a NOS unit, but who knows how "correct" it really is ::)
The hex bolt was used from 67-possibly to early 68 and the cone shaped allen stop bolt one after that is my current understanding from observations. The fitting surfaces are machined from what I have seen. They had rubber plugs installed in the fitting opening before painting each of a different size. The plugs were not the same size as the flat machined surface so after painting the removed plug would leave a black witness line one of about the size of a dime and the other a nickel .
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Thanks for that information Bob.
Looking through another thread, I found this image of "variations" (Marcus posted it)
I would think there may be a general understood trend of "known original examples" where some of these subtle differences may possibly be better understood.
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............The bail wire was added after painting evidence indicates to me.
As a note - Bob and I are discussing this point since it's different from prior statements and our different experiences and recall.
Will post just this one link to Jacks site with a reported 7k mile original master cylinder. Not much black remains on the main body but the cap and retaining wire still retain a fair amount of paint
http://www.deadnutson.com/page/page/2634063.htm (http://www.deadnutson.com/page/page/2634063.htm)
Richard will take a look to see what points I can help with. The bottom side of original master cylinders (especially while still in the car) isn't an easy and often taken picture :)
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As a note - Bob and I are discussing this point since it's different from prior statements and our different experiences and recall.
Will post just this one link to Jacks site with a reported 7k mile original master cylinder. Not much black remains on the main body but the cap and retaining wire still retain a fair amount of paint
http://www.deadnutson.com/page/page/2634063.htm (http://www.deadnutson.com/page/page/2634063.htm)
I am still in agreement on the Bendix Booster/Master assembly. I am skeptical about the Midland Booster/Bendx Master assembly being exactly the same all of the time. I am continuing research and discussion with Jeff S on the subject.
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This one quieted down a bit. I was doing some clean up and documentation on four master cylinders I have, and aside from the 2227161 marking on the bottom, I did in each case find markings on the driver's (hydraulic port) side.
Hopefully this helps.
I did not look for the "dimple" noted in Jack's web site, will do that later and report back.
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Bringing this topic back as I am currently shopping for a correct Master Cylinder. PLEASE correct me where I am in error on this...
Correct / Assembly Line Master Cylinder ID:
On the bottom will be a stop bolt (hex bolt or button-head Allen bolt, depending on year), a bendix logo, a Julian date code, the casting number 2227161.
There will be a small "bump" on the upper front side above the rear brake outlet port.
Should there also be numbers stamped into the driver's side of the bowls above the brake line ports?
Q&A:
1.) What years used the hex bolt vs button-head bolt and when did these change over?
- Currently believe that the hex bolt was used through 1967 and possibly to early 1968 before changing to the coarse thread button-head Allen stop bolt, which was used until around 1972. After 1972 they used a slightly different button-head bolt, which had a slightly smaller head and fine threads (per DNO page).
- If you have a rebuilt unit the original stop bolts may have been removed or changed during the rebuild process.
- Button-head bolts are available from Dead Nuts On in fine and course thread.
2.) Does anyone have pictures of original Hex & Allen Bolts?
- Yes, see the end of this post for examples.
3.) Where the fittings come out of the housing, are these originally machined surfaces or are some simply "cast" (porous) ?
- The fitting surfaces are machined.
- Then they had rubber plugs (each of a different size) installed in the opening before painting. The plugs were not the same size as the flat machined surface so after painting the removed plug would leave an unpainted circle about the size of a dime around one fitting and nickel-sized for the other fitting (per Bob Gaines' post).
4.) Bail wire, though painted as an assembly while mounted to the booster, what finish should be on the wire before it is painted?
- The bail wire was phosphate & oil(?) before being painted black with the rest of the assembly
5.) Numbers stamped into the sides of the cylinders, is there a "code" known on what they are?
- Good question! Possibly assembler and / or inspector stamps, some sort of build spec codes, application codes, and / or assembly dates?
- Are these stampings only found on original units? I have what I believe to be a later (or possibly rebuilt) Bendix that has no number stamps on the side and no stop bolt installed, but has all the other hallmarks.
Example Pics;
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Yes on the "small" hex head stop bolt used in 67 and early 68. There is also a large hex head that was used on later production (I have one on a B9 master). The numbers metal stamped into the side was a later phenomenon IMO. I don't believe it was used in 67 and early 68 for instance.
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The numbers metal stamped into the side was a later phenomenon IMO. I don't believe it was used in 67 and early 68 for instance.
Do you think they were there on the '69 / '70 cars?
Or are they maybe something added by rebuilders? I've seen two "NOS" master cylinders with the side stamps, but that doesn't mean they weren't Ford rebuilds maybe.
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The numbers stamped on the side of the master cylinder indicate the assembly date. This will always be different than the casting date on the bottom.
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Do you think they were there on the '69 / '70 cars?
Or are they maybe something added by rebuilders? I've seen two "NOS" master cylinders with the side stamps, but that doesn't mean they weren't Ford rebuilds maybe.
Keep in mind that NOS masters typically through attrition end up being later mfg service parts
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The numbers stamped on the side of the master cylinder indicate the assembly date. This will always be different than the casting date on the bottom.
Marcus,my first thought has been that the metal stamped numbers indicated some kind of assembly date given the one on the bottom was a casting date. Have you figured out how to decipher the metal stamps. If so what is the metal stamped date code sequence? I have yet to figure out how to decipher the metal stamped date code on the ones I have.
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The numbers stamped on the side of the master cylinder indicate the assembly date. This will always be different than the casting date on the bottom.
Any idea why we see some with and some without the side stamps? Is there a certain time-frame when they were stamped vs not stamped?
Were assembly line units side stamped?
As I mentioned, I have one without side stamps, so I'm trying to figure out if this would be a "correct" replacement or if I need to keep looking.
Thanks fellahs!
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Before this gets any deeper (and I should have caught this when this thread was originally started), the Master Cylinder Casting Number that Richard is talking about, is for 1967 with Power Disc Brakes (Manual Drum and Power Drum Brakes for 1967 both used a Master Cylinder with Casting Number 2227061, with different internal parts).
One must also be careful in obtaining this Casting Number Master Cylinder (2227161), making sure that it came from a 1967-72 Mustang with Power Disc Brakes. I say this because this Casting was used in 4 different applications ; 1967-72 Mustangs, 1967 Ford Trucks, 1967-71 Chevy/GMC Trucks, and 1967-70 Dodges and Plymouths. All 4 applications each used a different Master Cylinder ; thus, not only could the internals of each be different, but also the mountings, size of the threaded ports for the lines, seats, etc.
I had a similar situation occur when I went to rebuild the 2227061 casting for the Power Drum Brake Booster I am adding to my '67. I had picked up a Master Cylinder with Casting Number 2227061 from one of our CMF members. I then found an original NOS C7ZZ-2004-A Rebuild Kit for 1967 Power Drum Brake Master Cylinders. I found that not only were the pistons different, but the ports (holes) in the seats were different. Luckily, for my 2227061 casting, only 2 applications are shown ; 1967-72 Ford, Merc and Mustangs with Manual Drum Brakes, and 1967-73 Ford, Merc and Mustangs with Power Drum Brakes. Nonetheless, I found that the ports on the Master Cylinder that I had obtained were 0.089" diameter, and the ones in the Kit were 0.116" diameter. While 0.027" inches difference doesn't seem like a lot, since pressure is inversely proportional to area, this can be a difference of more than double the amount of pressure that is put on the wheel cylinders. As I have heard many people saying before that they never replace the seats when rebuilding a Master Cylinder because they "look good", I thought that I should mention this. The one thing that I don't know about this though (since I noted that I purchased the Master Cylinder "loose") is did the casting I purchased come from a Manual Brake car, or did Ford make a change in the seats used in the Rebuild Kit ? Since my Master Cylinder for my Manual Drum Brakes had been replaced years ago with a Wagner Master Cylinder, I can't compare the Bendix one to it. Possibly someone has an original Bendix Manual Drum Brake Master Cylinder that hasn't been rebuilt, that they could check ?
Just thought that I should add this "word to the wise".
Bob
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Any idea why we see some with and some without the side stamps? Is there a certain time-frame when they were stamped vs not stamped?
Were assembly line units side stamped?
As I mentioned, I have one without side stamps, so I'm trying to figure out if this would be a "correct" replacement or if I need to keep looking.
Thanks fellahs!
As I said before the metal stamping on the sides was a later phenomena. I don't have enough information to be confident to say how much later it was. Given the fact that the masters were painted along with the booster as a unit and that the typically light metal stamps could easily be covered by paint and you might not be able to be see the metal stampings on some regardless of if they were supposed to be there or not.
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On the subject of the stampings on the driver side of the main body of the master cylinders I have not idea of the purpose or pattern as of yet.
Do have examples of NOS with the stampings for 67-70 applications. Not all are Mustang examples but they are examples of new Ford parts - not rebuilts. So these are not all 2227161 but they could be used as evidence of a practice from the same suppliers and workers during a time period.
Even though we have this evidence we can't be certain of when they were produced and in turn put into the service replacement pool of parts. If we understood the stampings then we might be able to figure out a date and then when this practice was started.
Not sure if posting the stampings would help. If the consciences is that it would - I will :)
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Not sure if posting the stampings would help. If the consciences is that it would - I will :)
Couldn't hurt, right?
Thanks Bob, and everyone, I appreciate the info and input!
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Couldn't hurt, right?
You never know ::)
Here you go. Though they are not all very clear it appears there were single and two line versions
67 cast - 2227081
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-310118225459.jpeg)
C8OZ-2140-A
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-310118225421.jpeg)
C8OZ-2140-A
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-310118225333.jpeg)
C9AZ-2140-D
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-310118225254.jpeg)
C90Z-2140-B
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-310118225214.jpeg)
D0AZ-2140-C
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-310118225032.jpeg)
D0xxxxxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-310118225019.jpeg)
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Bob Gaines....Im traveling now in CA but have some stuff at mt shop that I think decodes some of the stampings from Bendix.
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I'm in negotiation with this master for the Shelby. Ok, it's in my hands with a TBD price.
The bottom and sides look right with the correct numbers. Still have to take it apart to check on rebuildability. And yes, it has the cast pimple over the front port.
Two things.
Is this amount of casting flash on the nose normal?
What is the wrench size of the 'small' hex bolt as I will make one on the lathe (any markings on head)?
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I'm in negotiation with this master for the Shelby. Ok, it's in my hands with a TBD price.
The bottom and sides look right with the correct numbers. Still have to take it apart to check on rebuildability. And yes, it has the cast pimple over the front port.
Two things.
Is this amount of casting flash on the nose normal?
What is the wrench size of the 'small' hex bolt as I will make one on the lathe (any markings on head)?
It doesn't appear to have a dimple over the front port .You should be able to see a defined dimple about 1/16 tall and there is none in the picture. From the angle of the picture you should be able to see it if it is there the way it needs to be. Although the other characteristics are there the dimple is the most visible of them . Yes on some can have more casting flash then others. and Yes some are a easy rebuild (I haven't had that kind of luck) and others have to be sleeved. you can't tell until you open them up. Most need a lot of work just to open them up to see.
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It doesn't appear to have a dimple over the front port .You should be able to see a defined dimple about 1/16 tall and there is none in the picture. From the angle of the picture you should be able to see it if it is there the way it needs to be. Although the other characteristics are there the dimple is the most visible of them . Yes on some can have more casting flash then others. and Yes some are a easy rebuild (I haven't had that kind of luck) and others have to be sleeved. you can't tell until you open them up. Most need a lot of work just to open them up to see.
Also the most common hex head stop bolt seen on 67's is 3/8 wrench size. There is also a large version.
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Thanks Bob.
It does have the dimple but the odd angle and flash obliterated it.
I've attached a pic of it so that others can see it too.
I did have to use some AeroKroil (super penetrant) to get the snap ring out. Also put a lot in all the holes. Let soak.
Punch in the aluminum front piston and turn with sharp edge snap ring pliers so the sharp edges dig into the aluminum internal hole. Popped right out.
The dome bolt required a fair amount of heat from a propane plumbing air torch around the raised edge of the casting. Then it came out.
Interesting nose on the dome screw.
The rear piston stayed in and I didn't want to damage the snap ring area by slamming it down that direction so I took a 1 foot long drill bit and drilled a hole in the aluminum piston. A 5" screw and a small slide hammer got that one out.
The lower portion of the bore is too pitted to use. A guy 20 mi from here does sleeving for $100, so off it goes!
[added]
Anyone have a closeup pic of the small bolt? Installed or not.
The bolt I pulled out of my master is a 5/16x18 dome head with a tip (to hold the secondary piston back).
I'm looking for a hex head bolt to whittle down in a lathe as a replacement.
The standard 5/16x18 bolt that Ford uses is the water pump bolt with washer-head.
The washer head would be required in the master cylinder application for the o-ring seal.
However, the water pump bolt has 1/2" flats, not 3/8".
Any standard bolt of 5/16x18 size would have 1/2" flats.
In order to have 3/8" flats, that would be one odd bolt.
Or the early master has a much smaller threaded opening in the master?
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It appears there is more to the master situation than just 'small hex', 'domed allen' and 'large hex'.
If your master has the small 3/8" wrench flats 'small hex' it also sports a 1/4-28 threaded hole and stop bolt.
If your master has the 'domed allen' it has a 5/16-18 threaded hole and stop bolt.
I can't say for sure, but if it has a 'large hex' I assume it has 1/2" wrench flats as that is the standard head size for a 5/16-18 bolt.
Please note that I've had limited sampling so I suggest we get more information on the topic.
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It appears there is more to the master situation than just 'small hex', 'domed allen' and 'large hex'.
If your master has the small 3/8" wrench flats 'small hex' it also sports a 1/4-28 threaded hole and stop bolt.
If your master has the 'domed allen' it has a 5/16-18 threaded hole and stop bolt.
I can't say for sure, but if it has a 'large hex' I assume it has 1/2" wrench flats as that is the standard head size for a 5/16-18 bolt.
Please note that I've had limited sampling so I suggest we get more information on the topic.
I can't say for sure, but if it has a 'large hex' I assume it has 1/2" wrench flats as that is the standard head size for a 5/16-18 bolt.
Confirmed! 1/2 inch hex head bolt has 5/16-18 or 5/16-NC threads. That is my only current example.
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The bolt in the bottom of the master cylinder is commonly known as a button head cap screw.
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The bolt in the bottom of the master cylinder is commonly known as a button head cap screw.
What about the ones that have a hex head? Not to split hairs but button head cap screw is just one of the names it is known by . I think that you will find that a more descriptive and just as common name it is known by is a "stop bolt" which is a description of it's purpose. The type of stop bolt ( button head, small hex ,large hex)is added to complete the description. For example 67 and some 68's are seen with the small hex head stop bolt master. Many later 68, 69 and 70 got the button head stop bolt master. I am not clear where the large hex head master fits in.
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I agree Bob the socket head cap screw only refers to the shape of the top of the bolt. The details.
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As another data point, after you pull the male flare out of the ports I'm seeing 3/8-24 and 1/2-20 threads.
These clean up with a standard tap.
Mine also have faint stampings on the port side that were only visible after some glass media blasting. A fresh coat of paint and these will probably disappear.
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Though not 100% like an original Bendix 2227161, reproductions are on the marketplace that are very accurate in a majority of the basic details. Great alternative, I suppose...while a person waits out an affordable original, which at this time, certain date-stamping codes are not even nailed down yet on. (Referring to the stampings on the sides of the reservoir, nobody seems clear on that just yet so even if you run down what LOOKS right by description: Buyer Beware! One day it might not be "correct" after all!)
NOS units are all but gone or fetch very high prices (as one currently for sale on eBay will likely sell over $350).
USED are also difficult to locate since so many were traded in over the years and most of the time need re-sleeved.
I have an original Used One, it was pitted inside the bore a bit too. I will find out if it needs sleeved after all when I go to bleed the brakes (pitting not where the seals ride on a "full pedal") so in the end, if my original used one "leaks" or "leaks-down", I will probably just replace it with one of these and shelf the other one. I know for sure, I will NOT be paying over $300 for one, not for a basic Coupe application, not considering the current understanding and my current understanding of MCA rules on this item.
PICS attached below
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In addition to my last comment on an aftermarket alternative, I have located a few images of the Stop Bolts, the Allen or button version and the 1/2" wrench hex bolt version. There has been discussion of a 3rd style but I haven't found any pictures of it yet.
Two points I wish to make with this comment. 1.) You can switch out an incorrect stop bolt if it is the wrong one (though you MUST disassemble the cylinder to secure the lower piston beyond the stop bolt if you switch it) and
2.) A person MIGHT find a cylinder with the correct 2227161 casting that does not have a stop bolt (later versions) and machine the area and drill a shallow hole, thread the hole and insert a shortened version of the stop bolt in the correct location, thus SIMULATING a stop bolt in a newer casting.
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Richard -- are these stop bolts in your possession?
Another user PMed with the size of his stop bolt and according to our measurements the large button head stop bolt will not interchange with the small hex head stop bolt.
I believe the large button head stop bolt will interchange with the large hex head stop bolt.
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Richard -- are these stop bolts in your possession?
Another user PMed with the size of his stop bolt and according to our measurements the large button head stop bolt will not interchange with the small hex head stop bolt.
I believe the large button head stop bolt will interchange with the large hex head stop bolt.
No. An ebay seller's. I figured they may be helpful to the discussion.
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2.) A person MIGHT find a cylinder with the correct 2227161 casting that does not have a stop bolt (later versions) and machine the area and drill a shallow hole, thread the hole and insert a shortened version of the stop bolt in the correct location, thus SIMULATING a stop bolt in a newer casting.
This is what I've been considering. My MC has no stop bolt, but appears to have some sort of pin and epoxy in the hole.
Wonder if I could just epoxy the top of a button-head bolt onto the bottom of the MC and call it good >.>
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I doubt that the epoxied pin was original to that MC. My guess is that the original stop bolt was lost, or broken, and someone just epoxied a pin in there to act as a stop bolt. Possibly you could just remove the pin, rethread it for 1/4-28, and put the correct stop bolt in ?
Bob
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Reproductions available as mentioned earlier:
http://therammaninc.com/products/shop_list/Disc-Master-Cylinders-345
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Attached are photos of 3 different fine threaded stop bolts I have found. Appears there are fine thread 3/8" as well as 1/2" and button headed allen. Notice the flattened out top of this button headed bolt.
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Attached are photos of 3 different fine threaded stop bolts I have found. Appears there are fine thread 3/8" as well as 1/2" and button headed allen. Notice the flattened out top of this button headed bolt.
The THREADS of the bolts pictured, ALL look to be the same size & pitch. Do you have a way to measure each thead size and thread pitch? NONE look to be fine thread pitch from what I am seeing in your pictures.
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The THREADS of the bolts pictured, ALL look to be the same size & pitch. Do you have a way to measure each thread size and thread pitch? NONE look to be fine thread pitch from what I am seeing in your pictures.
Yes all 3 are same threads. I don't have a thread gauge, but all 3 thread into the master cylinder that the center (3/8 head) bolt came from. I'm pretty sure this is the 1/4-28 size as referred to earlier.
I also have a master with the larger stop bolt (5/16-18?) and these are too small to thread into it.
The 1/2" flats bolt and the button head bolt came from NOS Ford master cyl. kits - so may not have been assembly line style.