Author Topic: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment  (Read 18183 times)

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2016, 11:10:35 AM »
"For Testing Purpose Only", there are many, many carbs you could try and often times a "Buddy" close by has one available. Just make every attempt to not alter things while making this "test", use a flexible fuel line, leave the throttle linkage alone or build a temporary linkage, do not worry about the choke system, things along those ideas.
If your "test carb" does the same symptoms, maybe your thought on the transmission are more likely then. Personally, your description matches a carb problem but I cannot hear or "feel" what is going on with the car while typing on a keyboard.

This is why I suggested a "KNOWN GOOD USED CARB" (though I didn't come right out in my previous comment and say that, I suppose)

The "borrowed", known to be good donor could be something like an AFB or modern version holley or something with the same carb base only, nothing specific or "exact" as you have.

By using another "known good" (borrowed?) carb, you will answer at least the main question, "Is it my carb or my trans?"
This should be possible by ONLY buying a couple of base gaskets and possibly a few feet of 5/16" rubber hose.

I did this VERY SAME THING several years ago when I tried to fix my old Holley I was then using on my 289. I rebuilt it, It wouldn't idle...no good, I had my older brother rebuild it too...still, the same problem...no good. I tried another (different) carb...BINGO, it's a bad carb. I never figured out "why", I simply switched carbs since 2 different builders couldn't nab the problem AND I needed the car for work. Normally, neither of us have troubles building carbs...but, big difference at the time... I wasn't trying to be Concours. I simply wanted to drive the car. Mine is supposed to have a 4300 Autolite on it...Those are notoriously BAD! At least if you figure out what is wrong (carb or trans), you can get going on the right "Concours correct" solution.
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline Angela

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2016, 12:33:58 PM »
I understand and respect the suggestion to try using a "known good carb". In words, that sounds simple and straightforward. In practice, however, it's not. I've contacted everyone I know (in the hobby or even remotely related) within a couple hour drive and cannot locate a carb (ford, holley or other) that is sitting on a working engine.

Even if I could find a known-good-carb, the next hurdle is getting the owner to let me remove it from their engine.

Fundamentally, IMHO I think the issue is that once fuel has been run through a rebuilt carb, the carb needs new gaskets if not used within a few months. I believe that's why no one has a carb laying around I can use.

Therefore, I thought I'd go back and try to understand the carb problem that many people think is causing my stalling issue. I don't understand the mechanism.

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2016, 01:40:57 PM »
There are SO MANY passages in items like metering blocks as well as the main body of the carb itself and describing how they all work together on any one specific example of a Holley carburetor is I feel fundamentally impossible (using words). This is where somebody who has beat their head in before with the EXACT problem you have, survived the head trauma and actually fixed the problem, before provebially "throwing the carburetor through a windshield of another car" (within throwing distance) comes into play.

Maybe send or take yours to another running car with another FE engine in it? Put your carb on another engine? See if the problem follows the carburetor?
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2016, 12:53:05 AM »
Angela:
A point I made when we first broached the subject and the length of time post rebuild. I am not impressed with Pony Carburetor either. They didn't want to do a set of BJ-BK's. A Holley is a Holley. They claim to run the rebuilt carburetors on an engine post rebuild. If that is the case, the gaskets would be compromised in just a few months of sitting.
Because of the alcohol content in current fuels, I have seen the fuel turn white and crusty in passages in a short time as well. Did you think about contacting Pony and seeing if you could send it back to them and let them inspect it being they rebuilt it. If they are running and adjusting them, it shouldn't be a big issue to sort your carb out.
Call them, you have nothing to lose. P.S. It doesn't have to be an FE you run it on.
                                                                                                      -Keith

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2016, 01:09:14 AM »
Angela:
A point I made when we first broached the subject and the length of time post rebuild. I am not impressed with Pony Carburetor either. They didn't want to do a set of BJ-BK's. A Holley is a Holley. They claim to run the rebuilt carburetors on an engine post rebuild. If that is the case, the gaskets would be compromised in just a few months of sitting.
Because of the alcohol content in current fuels, I have seen the fuel turn white and crusty in passages in a short time as well. Did you think about contacting Pony and seeing if you could send it back to them and let them inspect it being they rebuilt it. If they are running and adjusting them, it shouldn't be a big issue to sort your carb out.
Call them, you have nothing to lose. P.S. It doesn't have to be an FE you run it on.
                                                                                                      -Keith
Keith, you have been out of the loop, Jon of Pony Carbs passed away 3 or 4 years ago. the business closed shortly after.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

1967 eight barrel

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2016, 03:26:23 AM »
Bob,
I wasn't aware of his passing. I had two experiences with him, which left me less that enthralled. I guess that rules out that suggestion.
Here is another with a stellar reputation.

Angela, he does a lot of work for the guys on the 428 Cobra Jet site.
Chris's Carb Shop
email is chriss.carb.shop@hotmail.com
Phone (937)890-0970
Toll free 1-877-498-2272

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2016, 12:57:49 PM »
Angela:
A point I made when we first broached the subject and the length of time post rebuild. I am not impressed with Pony Carburetor either. They didn't want to do a set of BJ-BK's. A Holley is a Holley. They claim to run the rebuilt carburetors on an engine post rebuild. If that is the case, the gaskets would be compromised in just a few months of sitting.
Because of the alcohol content in current fuels, I have seen the fuel turn white and crusty in passages in a short time as well. Did you think about contacting Pony and seeing if you could send it back to them and let them inspect it being they rebuilt it. If they are running and adjusting them, it shouldn't be a big issue to sort your carb out.
Call them, you have nothing to lose. P.S. It doesn't have to be an FE you run it on.
                                                                                                      -Keith
Keith, you have been out of the loop, Jon of Pony Carbs passed away 3 or 4 years ago. the business closed shortly after.
At the MCA Concord, CA car show (2006 or 7 I think), Jon had did several demonstrations. The testing subject was brought up and Jon said the carburetors were tested on an engine, drained and new gaskets were included for shipping. Someone asked about the drained gas and Jon was a bit "miffed" at the subject being brought up again (words like - "Didn't you hear what I said?").
I had three 4100 carburetors rebuilt by Pony Carbs, two were mine, one was a no core purchase. All three were installed without any problems.
Jim 
I promise to be politically correct in all my posts to keep the BBBB from vociferating.

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2016, 02:23:37 PM »
Well, as you may have noted from the discussion: She didn't mention a gasket change. The brown style Holley gaskets are notorious for drying out sitting, especially if they have seen fuel.  Fuel sitting for an extended time tends to turn into a white chalky substance.
Jon would not do BK-BK carbs. That speaks volumes in my book, and trying to convince me there was some voodoo when doing them was what justified my commentary.
The PO had the carb done, Pony has been gone since about 2011. So the question is: How many years ago was it done? Did the PO replace the gaskets? If so, how long ago.
I think we've covered most of the common sense scenarios, and at this juncture the carb is suspect.


Offline Angela

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #68 on: April 11, 2016, 09:07:11 AM »
U P D A T E:

I FINALLY found someone with another holley I could try on my 390. A friend of a friend let me borrow the holley (aftermarket) that was working perfectly on his '70 Mustang. The fuel inlets were on the opposite side of the carb and fuel was directly fed to the secondary, so that complicated getting this carb setup in my '67. But...
When I finally got this known-working carb situated onto my 390, she fired right up and idled. I could hardly believe it. I didn't change any of the idle mixture screws... I just bolted it up and my 390 idled. I let 'er warm up and then attempted to put 'er into reverse and drive...
IT WORKS!!! I cannot believe this!!! Using this borrowed carb, my 390 will now idle perfectly in drive and reverse.... no stalling when in gear! Crazy!
An additional bonus, using this borrowed carb, my 390 idles 150 RPM slower than I have EVER been able to get it to idle (700 VS 850)!

SO, I'd like to know what you guys recommend, should I
(a) Find someone to rebuild the ford-holley 9510-D that's been giving me trouble since I had it professionally rebuilt (and replated) many years ago?
(b) OR, should I find someone to rebuild an identically dated 9510-D spare carb I own?

Option (a) concerns me because that carb has been giving me so much trouble for many years. Even after the professional rebuild, I personally put a rebuild kit (gaskets, power valve, float needles etc) only to find it still behaved the same way). There must be something fundamentally messed up with that carb. I think I'd prefer to start with a different candidate, yet would like some input.

Finally, I still have NO CLUE what on earth goes wrong with a carb such that it causes an engine to idle, yet stalls when shifted into gear. I wish I could understand this.

Thanks to everyone for continuing to push on me to find another carb to try. I kind thought everyone was nuts. Turns out you guys were onto something. Thanks a million! I don't need to yank the drivetrain to replace the torque converter!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline WT8095

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2016, 09:35:15 AM »
IT WORKS!!! I cannot believe this!!! Using this borrowed carb, my 390 will now idle perfectly in drive and reverse.... no stalling when in gear! Crazy!
An additional bonus, using this borrowed carb, my 390 idles 150 RPM slower than I have EVER been able to get it to idle (700 VS 850)!

Congratulations! I can only imagine the huge smile on your face when it worked  ;D

Briefly, I think the two most likely issues with the problem carb are either the secondary throttle plate adjustment not being quite right, or air leaking around worn throttle shaft(s). Some carbs can be repaired by installing throttle shaft bushings (I've done this myself), but I am not yet familiar enough with 4150s to tell you if that's feasible or practical in this case. There certainly could be other issues as well, and in stubborn troubleshooting situations it's not surprising that multiple things are wrong, making diagnosis very difficult.
Dave Z.

'68 fastback, S-code + C6. Special Paint (Rainbow promotion), DSO 710784. Actual build date 2/7/1968, San Jose.
'69 Cougar convertible, 351W-2V + FMX, Meadowlark Yellow.

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #70 on: April 11, 2016, 09:40:21 AM »
It is really good to hear that you were able to finally figure this one out. I am not at all surprised it ended up being the carburetor. I have thought this all along.

As many have suggested already, these carburetors are very tricky. That being said there are people who can work on them and repair your original carburetor. Hopefully somebody will chime in very soon who has had recent good experience with a Rebuilder that can take what you have and find out what exactly is wrong with it. More often than not, a passageway is plugged or something is warped or something is worn out. Somebody with very good experience with you  particular model of carburetor can figure this out.

What a relief this must be for you to know this now.  Ever now and again we need to make progress :D
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 02:12:03 PM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline mtinkham

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #71 on: April 11, 2016, 01:20:42 PM »
If money and time were no object, I would try to find a rebuilder that has a working test engine.  Have the problem carburetor tested, as is, to verify that your stalling condition is transferred to his test engine....then start swapping out components.  Once the right, or wrong, piece is swapped out, you will have confirmation that the stalling condition has been resolved.....Although if you found a good rebuilder, they may already know what the root cause of the stalling condition is.  I have been on the side-lines listening to this discussion...as I have a 390 GT that has not been running for more than 25 years.
1967 S-code Fastback, GT, 3-speed manual, Metuchen, Scheduled 04-21-1967 - Actual 04-25-1967

Offline 69cobrajetrugae2

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2016, 02:25:53 PM »
Option (a) concerns me because that carb has been giving me so much trouble for many years. Even after the professional rebuild, I personally put a rebuild kit (gaskets, power valve, float needles etc) only to find it still behaved the same way). There must be something fundamentally messed up with that carb. I think I'd prefer to start with a different candidate, yet would like some input.

Finally, I still have NO CLUE what on earth goes wrong with a carb such that it causes an engine to idle, yet stalls when shifted into gear. I wish I could understand this.


Hi Angela. You seem smart and carbs are not that hard if you learn the basics. It's imperative that you are able to test the circuits of the carburetor or it's a guessing game. Warped parts are common because the screws do not need to be tight, just barely snug, and most people have over torqued the screws which causes internal and external air and fuel leaks.

 The reason the car would stall in gear is that engine is loaded and needs more volume of the correct air fuel mixture to run, since the engine is asked to do more work.  The problem with your existing carburetor could be the wrong base plate, bent idle screws, bent butterflies or the wrong idle screws we're used at some point and forced into the seat which damaged the port.

My guess is that there is debris in the bottom of the float bowl which is not allowing enough fuel to be drawn in to the carburetor at idle. When the engine was running in neutral I can guess it was running poorly and light popping could be heard which can indicate a lean burn misfire. Lean burn misfires can water the eyes where a rich condition smells like heavy exhaust.

When in neutral, the spark plugs we're just able to fire the lean mixture, when in drive the air passing the crack in the throttle plate is slowed since the engine drops in RPM, and when there was JUST enough pull on the fuel holes in neutral, there was NOT enough pull on the holes in drive so the engine just died, makes sense. 

Here is how the idle circuit works.  At idle, the engine is pulling air on the bottom of the carburetor. The primary throttle plates are barely cracked.  Fuel is waiting at the little crack in the throttle plates in little round holes in the carburetor body. The little round holes are at the end of a idle tunnel which runs through the body of the carburetor and leads to the float bowl where the fuel sits. The idle screws are used to control the amount of fuel that flow through the idle tunnel, the screws intersect the idle tunnel. When you turn the screws out more fuel can flow, conversely when you screw the screws in, less fuel can flow. You have to follow the idle tunnel from the baseplate to the body of the carburetor and make sure it's free and clear with a air hose and a tiny air gun so you can hear the movement of air to the float bowl.

I just rebuilt a 1964 390 police interceptor 4100 and the thing had all sorts of problems from other incorrect repairs.  It wasn't easy.  The utube tutorials we're very helpful to me to sort it out. Now the car run runs awesome, I doubt a carburetor shop could have done the job right. It was not something that could be rushed. I had to stone several parts to flatten them out for proper sealing and to eliminate leaks, this alone took me a couple of hours. The diaphragm for the secondary venturi pull off that came in the kit was too thin and I was unable to get it to seal when I applied vacuum to it. So I purchased a good one for 25 dollars, the whole kit cost me 30 dollars!  Remember these cars are 50 years old and one has to have a simple, but practical understanding of the carburetor to do the job right, and all carburetor parts are not created equal. Good luck!
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 02:28:40 PM by 69cobrajetrugae2 »

Offline Bossbill

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #73 on: October 06, 2022, 01:19:29 PM »
Whatever happened here? Did Angela get a different carb?


Bill
Concours  Actual Ford Build 3/2/67 GT350 01375
Driven      6/6/70 0T02G160xxx Boss 302
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Offline Angela

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Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2023, 01:34:49 PM »
Thanks for asking BossBill. What happened, you ask?  I read every Ford/Holley 4150 book and article I could find and rebuilt the carb two more times. I adjusted everything possible, to the best of my understanding. The engine continued to run exactly the same, however.

Finally, a friend graciously allowed me to borrow a known-good 4150 off of his running Mustang. I set his carb onto my engine, changed nothing else and my car ran perfectly.

I ended up rebuilding another spare carb I had and used that one, which also worked perfectly on my engine.

So, in the end, I was defeated (through no lack of effort) in that the carb won.... I could not for the life of me determine what was wrong with it. Even the famous Joe Bunetic carb rebuild rendered the same result. Sorry guys, I tried... Thanks for all of your help!