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1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1967 Mustang => Topic started by: J_Speegle on August 10, 2017, 05:25:27 PM

Title: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: J_Speegle on August 10, 2017, 05:25:27 PM
Along the "lines" of discussion of underhood items, particularly the valves that connect the lines to the compressor (including the associated caps)...
....

Wasn't the 67 that we looked at a few years back and came up with allot of originals with two styles of caps used originally and in a specific pattern. Forgive me if that was a different year.

Referring to the fill caps not the valve caps
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: 67gtasanjose on August 10, 2017, 06:02:28 PM
Wasn't the 67 that we looked at a few years back and came up with allot of originals with two styles of caps used originally and in a specific pattern. Forgive me if that was a different year.

Referring to the fill caps not the valve caps

I believe you are right and it looks like "OCD me" (from my younger years) switched them to 'match' so perhaps we can revisit this here again or if somebody stumbles onto the other thread, link it to this one.

I have also uploaded some pictures of my compressor and Hardware. It is possible some or all of this is incorrect for my November 2nd 66 built San Jose example. Before understanding date codes for example, I may have swapped this compressor out somewhere in the vehicle's life.
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: krelboyne on August 10, 2017, 10:18:30 PM
My research shows two different sets of service valves were used 1967-68. Not sure if they are York or Tecumseh related?
Service caps can be either brass or aluminum. *I matched mine to Richard's example.
I also am showing a picture of two styles of service valve caps, note that one has distinctly wider (taller?) knurling stamped into it.
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: Bob Gaines on August 10, 2017, 10:45:57 PM
I believe you are right and it looks like "OCD me" (from my younger years) switched them to 'match' so perhaps we can revisit this here again or if somebody stumbles onto the other thread, link it to this one.

I have also uploaded some pictures of my compressor and Hardware. It is possible some or all of this is incorrect for my November 2nd 66 built San Jose example. Before understanding date codes for example, I may have swapped this compressor out somewhere in the vehicle's life.
I have not seen that style clutch if of the eletro magnet variety painted completely black before when NOS or on survivor cars .  I have typically seen them plated silver with black rivets or also sometimes with some of the other features inside the inner center face blacked out but not completely black. I have seen them after being rebuilt paint all black rather then plated silver . If the clutch is of the brush variety I have only seen them as black.
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: 67gtasanjose on August 11, 2017, 04:56:49 AM
I have not seen that style clutch painted completely black before when NOS or on survivor cars .  I have typically seen them plated silver with black rivets or also sometimes with some of the other features inside the inner center face blacked out but not completely black. I have seen them after being rebuilt paint all black rather then plated silver .

Thank you. Details like these are the toughest to duplicate. I have a Ford service replacement clutch that is also all black & assumed this was correct. It may be a remanufactured replacement. If anyone has pictures of these details, much appreciated.

FWIW, small block clutch details differ than big block clutches but I have not been able to pin down all of the differences yet. Too many restored & serviced cars, too few true survivors.
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: Bob Gaines on August 11, 2017, 05:40:21 PM
Thank you. Details like these are the toughest to duplicate. I have a Ford service replacement clutch that is also all black & assumed this was correct. It may be a remanufactured replacement. If anyone has pictures of these details, much appreciated.

FWIW, small block clutch details differ than big block clutches but I have not been able to pin down all of the differences yet. Too many restored & serviced cars, too few true survivors.
On review of the pictures I realize that I got your clutch style mixed up with the type that uses the electro magnet. The brush type style s painted black and the type that uses the electro magnet that I had it confused it with is silver. The faces are very similar. I amended my previous post.
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: J_Speegle on August 11, 2017, 06:16:34 PM
Looked through original unrestored and period pictures and the only place I've finding 67 or 68 AC clutches for Mustang applications that are plated are service replacements

I have more than 100 examples from examples of both years so I'm only going to post a few (basically a nice example from each year and plant) to illustrate what I found 

7R03C1883xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817170853-79911779.jpeg)


7T03A15238x
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817171120-79921415.jpeg)


8F01C1794xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817171226-79931804.jpeg)


8R01C12673x
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817171339-7995853.jpeg)


8T02J1986xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817171421-79961978.jpeg)




Also since the same clutches may have been used on the same pump when installed in other car models a few production car pictures from 67
Sorry some are pretty nasty scans.

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817171518-7997640.jpeg)

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817171522-79982438.jpeg)
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: J_Speegle on August 11, 2017, 06:17:56 PM
Shot of the valves and caps - this time from a 68


8R01C12673x
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817171338-79941947.jpeg)
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: Bob Gaines on August 11, 2017, 06:48:16 PM
Looked through original unrestored and period pictures and the only place I've finding 67 or 68 AC clutches for Mustang applications that are plated are service replacements

I have more than 100 examples from examples of both years so I'm only going to post a few (basically a nice example from each year and plant) to illustrate what I found 

7R03C1883xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817170853-79911779.jpeg)


7T03A15238x
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817171120-79921415.jpeg)


8F01C1794xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817171226-79931804.jpeg)


8R01C12673x
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817171339-7995853.jpeg)


8T02J1986xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817171421-79961978.jpeg)




Also since the same clutches may have been used on the same pump when installed in other car models a few production car pictures from 67
Sorry some are pretty nasty scans.

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817171518-7997640.jpeg)

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-110817171522-79982438.jpeg)
Jeff ,your  picture#3 is of the electro magnet variety and I feel have been painted as replacement parts.
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: J_Speegle on August 11, 2017, 07:02:43 PM
Jeff ,your  picture#3 is of the electro magnet variety and I feel have been painted as replacement parts.

Sure I can look and post a couple of other 68 Dearborn examples if that would help
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: Bob Gaines on August 11, 2017, 07:28:01 PM
Sure I can look and post a couple of other 68 Dearborn examples if that would help
It would be interesting if you would . Black painted contradicts what the Pitts style electromagnetic clutch is typically finished as. The 68 photos, factory and otherwise of 68 Metuchen Shelby's (it is a early vs late thing apparently)  and the 64/65 and 68 Pitts clutch versions (electro magnet) in Mannels book all appear to be plated too. It seems that there is at least some kind of consistency over the course of several years.  I wouldn't think the same manufacture supplying different plants would have a different finish for one (Dearborn) over the other plants . I suppose it could be a anomaly for a short period of time in 68.  There is quite a bit of picture documentation for the Pitts style clutch being silver on 69 Dearborn cars.  I don't think that Pitts had multiple plants but maybe that is it . Hate to put you to the trouble but if you are so inclined it would be interesting to see how much of a anomaly it is.   
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: J_Speegle on August 12, 2017, 12:24:02 AM
It would be interesting if you would . Black painted contradicts what the Pitts style electromagnetic clutch is typically finished as. ..........

Just so I focus and get this right before the search ;)  Your only describing the finish on one style of AC clutch? As your referring to in reply #5

So we're all in agreement that the other style (appears that the electromagnetic was not used in 67 originally) was originally finished in semi-gloss black.

As for the electromagnetic style I know I've got NOS versions of those in the plated finish.  Will look to see what or how side the usage was for that style in 68 in my collection of pictures. Should only take less than an hour I would guess to go through everything I can think of
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: Bob Gaines on August 12, 2017, 01:08:09 AM
Just so I focus and get this right before the search ;)  Your only describing the finish on one style of AC clutch? As your referring to in reply #5

So we're all in agreement that the other style (appears that the electromagnetic was not used in 67 originally) was originally finished in semi-gloss black.

As for the electromagnetic style I know I've got NOS versions of those in the plated finish.  Will look to see what or how side the usage was for that style in 68 in my collection of pictures. Should only take less than an hour I would guess to go through everything I can think of
Yes, I have only seen the Eaton brush style painted black. I agree and don't think that the electro magnet style was used in 67. Yes on focus should be on finish of electro magnet style as pictured in reply 5 and your third picture in reply #6. 
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: 67gtasanjose on August 12, 2017, 08:48:07 AM
On review of the pictures I realize that I got your clutch style mixed up with the type that uses the electro magnet. The brush type style s painted black and the type that uses the electro magnet that I had it confused it with is silver. The faces are very similar. I amended my previous post.

Acknowledged.

Your answer sent me into a image search of previous threads at this site for unrestored examples and with the recent Photobucket tragedy/travesty...those thread's images are not yet available! (Jeff, disregard my other posts for the time being...take your time as is available).

With the un-availability of the unrestored images posted in other threads, balance 'in my universe' sure was upset! Thankfully, the correction of interpretation has resorted my sanity...Ok, temporarily restored my sanity!

Now on to the next task...I ordered the gaskets & seals to re-seal my compressor. My understanding is that the only real issues (failures) of over 90% of these York compressors is 1.) reed valve contamination & 2.) crankshaft seal leaks. Easy repairs for the novice...as long as you do not take the whole compressor apart that is. If anyone else has any pointers along these lines, feel free to share them. It might be later this year before I actually rebuild mine (unless I get a break at work and can take the time).

My thoughts at this time regarding the brush holder mounting plate is to replate the original C3SA-2979-A bracket (with FoMoCo script) and re-rivet it onto a replacement brush set. Most replacement NOS sets have C8 engineering numbers :( Aftermarkets look to be blank.
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: Bob Gaines on August 12, 2017, 02:21:42 PM
Acknowledged.

Your answer sent me into a image search of previous threads at this site for unrestored examples and with the recent Photobucket tragedy/travesty...those thread's images are not yet available! (Jeff, disregard my other posts for the time being...take your time as is available).

With the un-availability of the unrestored images posted in other threads, balance 'in my universe' sure was upset! Thankfully, the correction of interpretation has resorted my sanity...Ok, temporarily restored my sanity!

Now on to the next task...I ordered the gaskets & seals to re-seal my compressor. My understanding is that the only real issues (failures) of over 90% of these York compressors is 1.) reed valve contamination & 2.) crankshaft seal leaks. Easy repairs for the novice...as long as you do not take the whole compressor apart that is. If anyone else has any pointers along these lines, feel free to share them. It might be later this year before I actually rebuild mine (unless I get a break at work and can take the time).

My thoughts at this time regarding the brush holder mounting plate is to replate the original C3SA-2979-A bracket (with FoMoCo script) and re-rivet it onto a replacement brush set. Most replacement NOS sets have C8 engineering numbers :( Aftermarkets look to be blank.
I agree with your strategy but would like to add because of others that may be reading is that only the very earliest of 67 production A/C cars would use the brush set with the C3SA engineering number. I actually have never noticed the C3SA brush set used before on a 67 production but it may be because your car is early production and Ford hadn't switched over yet.  The vast majority of 67 Brush sets are of the C7 variety. The C3,C7 brush sets can still be found in NOS form occasionally. The C8 is much more common relatively speaking.
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: J_Speegle on August 14, 2017, 07:14:46 PM
It would be interesting if you would . Black painted contradicts what the Pitts style electromagnetic clutch is typically finished as. The 68 photos, factory and otherwise of 68 Metuchen Shelby's (it is a early vs late thing apparently) ................

Yes, I have only seen the Eaton brush style painted black. I agree and don't think that the electro magnet style was used in 67. Yes on focus should be on finish of electro magnet style as pictured in reply 5 and your third picture in reply #6.

Looked through my pictures of Dearborn and NJ 68 (only) examples. From the limited number of 68 Dearborn picture I have I don't have one with showing/using the electro magnet

For 68 NJ the results are mixed and I can't see a pattern but we do have many more examples since the production would include Shelbys also. Guess I'll assembly a group of 68 NJ examples for all to see (Deaborn isn't going to provide anything more than what I've provided in words at this point from my source)  and post

Bottom line as I see it this moment is that we're off chasing when each version was used but I think we all agree on what finish each version was originally ;)

Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: 67gtasanjose on August 15, 2017, 06:31:26 AM
Looked through my pictures of Dearborn and NJ 68 (only) examples. From the limited number of 68 Dearborn picture I have I don't have one with showing/using the electro magnet

For 68 NJ the results are mixed and I can't see a pattern but we do have many more examples since the production would include Shelbys also. Guess I'll assembly a group of 68 NJ examples for all to see (Deaborn isn't going to provide anything more than what I've provided in words at this point from my source)  and post

Bottom line as I see it this moment is that we're off chasing when each version was used but I think we all agree on what finish each version was originally ;)



Something I was thinking about regarding the clutch differences seen (and any patterns we may be trying to establish), the early version (brushes style) clutch could easily have been updated to the later version (or vice-versa) during any service procedure. I would be willing to suggest that a Ford service garage would typically sell what inventory was on the shelf first and unlike today's Parts People, these REAL parts People of the Old School variety, KNEW what updates or current inventory stock fits what cars WITHOUT relying on the MPC to tell them. These guys just walked out to the shelf and got the part, they rarely even needed to look the part up.

I agree with your strategy but would like to add because of others that may be reading is that only the very earliest of 67 production A/C cars would use the brush set with the C3SA engineering number. I actually have never noticed the C3SA brush set used before on a 67 production but it may be because your car is early production and Ford hadn't switched over yet.  The vast majority of 67 Brush sets are of the C7 variety. The C3,C7 brush sets can still be found in NOS form occasionally. The C8 is much more common relatively speaking.

I would have no way of knowing that the C3 brush set is ACTUALLY original to my car or consistant to what is found on low-mileage unrestored for an early November, '67 SJ example. I can only say it is what I found during disassembly. (Refer to the comment above) My car was driven over 120,000 miles and the air conditioning would have been used A LOT in the Mojave Dessert in the first 10 years before I got the car in early 1978. The AC system was still functioning as a daily driver in the Palm Springs area well into the mid/late-80's before I quit using it due to an expansion valve defect. This AC system had MUCH use and as we know, the brushes rub on the pulley clutch even when the AC is not being used (wearing down the brushes). The C3 Brushes are now (perhaps, 'again') pretty much worn out at this time but it isn't impossible they are the 2nd set or 3rd set or whatever.
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: preaction on August 15, 2017, 02:47:36 PM
My 67 Cougar had a C3 brush on it as I received it. It clearly was at the end of its service life when I went through the car so it was replaced with a C7 part. When I purchased this car it still had two ink date stamped headlights and a pair of factory brake drums still in use.
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: Bob Gaines on August 15, 2017, 03:03:27 PM
My 67 Cougar had a C3 brush on it as I received it. It clearly was at the end of its service life when I went through the car so it was replaced with a C7 part. When I purchased this car it still had two ink date stamped headlights and a pair of factory brake drums still in use.
The C3 brush set may or may not have been original on your car . Parts department had a good back up inventory and the C3 version was still available long after the C7 were introduced. Just saying that theoretically a C7 brush set may have been replaced with a C3 marked unit because the older stock was still available .It is more likely original if it is a early in production car IMHO.
Title: Re: 67-68 AC Engine Compartment Details
Post by: preaction on August 15, 2017, 06:41:01 PM
Makes sense.