Author Topic: phosphate and oil  (Read 1641 times)

Offline bgp429

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phosphate and oil
« on: January 08, 2017, 06:26:53 PM »
Haven't been able to find the phosphate solution. Has anyone used this Caswell product?

http://www.caswellplating.com/metal-finishing-solutions/black-oxide-kits/black-oxide-kit-1-25-gal.html

Offline carlite65

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5F09C331248

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: phosphate and oil
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2017, 06:31:13 PM »
I've used the blue fluid that is part of this kit as a cold brush on/dip to color parts. Have not used it int he tradition boil method of application

Worked for my purposes just fine. Did purchase my next (similar stuff) from one of the gun shops instead.
Jeff Speegle

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Offline bgp429

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Re: phosphate and oil
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2017, 09:55:42 PM »
Tried to call Palmetto last week, non working number. Will try e mail.

Offline 68NordicCat

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Re: phosphate and oil
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2017, 12:51:18 AM »
I've been using this process with Etch & Prep available from Home Depot.

http://www.southsandia.com/forum/website/phosphate_etching.html

Usually dilute by about half then heat to roughly 190 degrees in a stainless steel vessel (water tray from restaurant supply house and a propane cooker for larger items; one of my wife's mixing bowls and the stove for smaller batches - she doesn't care for this method and the bowl is now a "shop item"). Blasting the parts first cleans them up and creates a nice surface for the treatment.
12/67 SJ Built 68 J code 4-spd Cougar

Offline sportyworty

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Re: phosphate and oil
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2017, 10:54:28 AM »
I use Prep and Etch as well and have for years. Dilute it with Distilled water 50/50 and get it up to 180 degrees and drop a steel wool pad in to agitate the solution. Much has been written here on the subject and peoples processes vary. I buy Manganese and Zinc to alter color on occasion for GM parts which can be purchased at a pottery supply store. Have not needed to use it though last few times for Ford parts by just increasing the time in the solution. Cheap and simple then dump the solution around my fruit trees

Offline bgp429

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Re: phosphate and oil
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2017, 11:22:03 AM »
In stock at Home Depot, on my way there. Thanks!

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: phosphate and oil
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2017, 01:06:40 PM »
. Blasting the parts first cleans them up and creates a nice surface for the treatment.


Be aware that this often changes (depending on pressure and material used to clean) the surface of the part, altering it from original

Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline bgp429

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Re: phosphate and oil
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2017, 01:48:34 PM »

Be aware that this often changes (depending on pressure and material used to clean) the surface of the part, altering it from original

The latch and hinges were spray bombed, so it's not good paint. Going to try aircraft stripper first. That should remove most of it, then fine glass beads at low 80 psi. Think that will be the least invasive method. Home Depot had the Etch and Prep. Thanks everybody.

Offline jwc66k

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Re: phosphate and oil
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2017, 03:21:46 PM »
The latch and hinges were spray bombed, so it's not good paint. Going to try aircraft stripper first. That should remove most of it, then fine glass beads at low 80 psi. Think that will be the least invasive method.
The one area you need to concentrate is the pivot points on hinges and latches. I use TIP http://www.tptools.com/ as a source for glass beads. I like their Scat Magic http://www.tptools.com/Skat-Magic-Abrasive,354.html?b=d*8019 which is made from crushed car window glass, 40-80 grit. When you think you've done a good job, go back and do the pivot points again, there's a lot of residual lubricant and crud in there. When you "cook" the parts in 180F minimum hot water and phosphate mix, some of it will loosen and may flow out. After a cold water rinse and dry cycle, hanging the part over a pan, I flush the pivot point with WD-40 until it runs clear. These are proven and tried methods. The picture of the hood hinge (it's for a 66) is too dark and was redone from scratch to a lighter shade of gray (see the center links). The springs were not redone as they should look like they were heat treated.
Read Phosphating 101 again http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=4624.0 You will be the judge of the finished product, not me.
Jim
I promise to be politically correct in all my posts to keep the BBBB from vociferating.

Offline preaction

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Re: phosphate and oil
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2017, 09:00:05 PM »
If anyone is in need of a very good phosphate solution I have some bulk of E-Phos 630 which has been written about many times here and produces a very good finish for sale, please just PM me thanks Paul.
8R02S125064- January 6 1968  SJ   7F93S591808 - April 28 1967  Dearborn   7F91S544039 - December 17 1966 Dearborn

Offline Bossbill

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Re: phosphate and oil
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2018, 11:16:02 PM »
I've been doing quite a few phosphate and oil baths lately.
Also did a bit of experimenting because when I emailed Palmetto Enterprises I didn't hear from them for a few weeks. Turns out they were on vacation. Still, auto-reply on emails isn't that hard to do!

So I tried the HD Prep and Etch first. I diluted it about 30% and got it up to temperature (180-190).
Got a lot of foam.
The Prep and Etch also resulted in bolts with a lot of fluff (loose black stuff) on them. The color looked great, but there was a lot of fluff. Tried different dip times in the soup, but still fluffy.
I also tried motor oil, but it either takes a lot of blue towels to remove or days to let the oil run off.
It works, but not as clean and well as the next method.

Palmetto emailed back and I ordered the Phosphate and the Zinc solutions.
I used the Zinc first and REALLY liked the color and finish. Leave that for another thread.
I got the water up to temp (190-200) and added the Phosphate solution.
The bolts were already fairly clean, but I used glass media blasting and Jim's (jwc66k) great idea of using a funnel and screen to tumble small parts in the media stream.
After media I make sure to not touch the parts and give them a bath in denatured alcohol.
A quick blast of air and into the soup it goes.
10 minutes in the phosphate bath per the instructions with a constant stir (every 2 min) and then back into the alcohol.
Another blast of air and over to the oiling station.
I purchased a gallon of WD, which came with its own sprayer, and doused the parts.
I spray WD on the parts over a stainless bowl and place the parts on an oil dry pad with plastic film under the pad.
I prefer the non-aerosol WD as you get a lot more for your money and you can really hose on the WD with the sprayer. No nasty propellant fumes either.

Thanks for all the suggestions here. I'm reusing every nut, bolt, washer and J clip on the 67 as well as using this method for any other parts that specify S2. It's a LOT more work than just ordering AMK kits, but every time I reinstall a J clip and see the correct part number on the back ...
Seeing all those factory correct SEMS and other marks is also pretty neat.


The Palmetto solution appears to be "cleaner" and the end product is superior to the Prep and Etch.

Bill
Concours 3/2/67 GT350
Driven     6/6/70 0T02G160xxx B302
Modified  5/18/65 5F09A728xxx 2+2
Race       65 Coupe front clip, Convertible frame mods and SFCs; 2+2 conversion; Many 'glass parts

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: phosphate and oil
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2018, 11:32:03 PM »
Just as a general "watch out" comment. Be sure (especially if you applying spray oil) to separt where you do that from the plating area. 

Too close and its real easy to just get one very small drop in your solution or on a yet to be plated part. It will screw things up quickly as some of us have discovered.  ::) 

I've gone to heating the part again and soaking them in the oil I use- just me  I can be messy
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline caspian65

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Re: phosphate and oil
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2018, 05:26:49 PM »
Not sure where I read it once, but it's recommended to throw a coarse steel wool pad into the heated phosphate solution for about 30 minutes before the first use.  I've found if I don't do this, the color will be lighter.

I usually use manganese phosphate from Palmetto.
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Offline J_Speegle

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Re: phosphate and oil
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2018, 05:31:34 PM »
Not sure where I read it once, but it's recommended to throw a coarse steel wool pad into the heated phosphate solution for about 30 minutes before the first use. 

I've seen it mention a number of times. I've never used them and have been happy with how dark my batches turn out compared to others but maybe I'll give it a try late in a batch with some test pieces just to see.
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)