Author Topic: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ  (Read 417 times)

Offline 70BlackMach1

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Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« on: July 22, 2017, 12:52:42 AM »
I'm not sure if I should start a new topic, but I have a circumstance that relates to this thread.  I have a 1970 Metuchen Mach 1 0T05H10B212 built on 9/12/69.  I have owned this car since 1978 so I am sure it hasn't been restored.  I have read other posts in Boss 302 Registry and Vintage Mustang Forums of Metuchen Mustangs in the September/October 1969 time frame with non-red oxide undercarriages.  This includes mine.  Granted, I wasn't thinking of colors when I took the attached pictures, so I didn't do any in depth checking before I had the unibody stripped.  But, I don't see ANY evidence of red oxide on my undercarriage.  It looks to be a pinkish gray similar to what others have reported.  Even where the seat bolt plug protected the paint, it appears gray.  Are these pictures evidence enough if I paint the undercarriage a pinkish gray to match what I see when judged in a car show (see attached pics)?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Barry

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2017, 05:53:45 PM »
Barry started a new thread so that we could use a more appropriate title to help others find and to focus on this discussion

But, I don't see ANY evidence of red oxide on my undercarriage.  It looks to be a pinkish gray similar to what others have reported.  Even where the seat bolt plug protected the paint, it appears gray.  Are these pictures evidence enough if I paint the undercarriage a pinkish gray to match what I see when judged in a car show (see attached pics)?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Barry

Just a couple of things to start if I may

Guessing that is a "8" rather than a "B" in the VIN you posted "I have a 1970 Metuchen Mach 1 0T05H10B212 built on 9/12/69."

What color is/was the exterior of the car originally?

Picture #4 that you posted shows the outer edge of the rear wheel well. An area that would not have been sprayed by the jets that painted the floor of your car. So not sure where the gray came from there unless its the light gray primer filler applied to the exterior after the red oxide primer coat - in this case possibly applied around the rear wheel well lip/opening.

At this point I'm going to go back through my pictures and notes of NJ cars built during the period of time your focusing on so I can discuss this further. Thanks for all the info on the car and some pictures to start the discussion rolling
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 06:05:04 PM by J_Speegle »
Jeff Speegle

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Offline 70BlackMach1

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 10:58:41 AM »
Oops, sorry about that.  Yes, it is 0T05H108212.  The car was originally black (Black Paint, Ford #1724-A).

Thanks for the quick response.  Looking forward to hearing more.  I am a few weeks from shooting the undercarriage.

Barry

Offline 70BlackMach1

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 03:41:05 PM »
Attached are 4 posts of reports on non-red oxide primer (pinkish/gray) on Metuchen Mustangs.  Two of which were produced close to the date mine was, the other two don't state.  Could there have been an engineering deviation on the line during a short period to use an excess of left over paint?  Maybe a new production line worker?  Shortage of red oxide?  Anyway, something more to chew on.

Barry

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 09:24:36 PM »
First thanks for the exterior color. We needed to eliminate that possibility since a number of the areas your provided pictures from are often well coated with exterior color. We can see what appears to be evidence of that black overspray in at least three of the pictures you posted  The inner seat mount hole in picture #3 is interesting since it appears to show a very dark color, though on a rough surface, far in towards the center of the car. Also very dark on the back side of the torque box of that same picture. An area often not hit with exterior color.

 

Attached are 4 posts of reports on non-red oxide primer (pinkish/gray) on Metuchen Mustangs.  Two of which were produced close to the date mine was, the other two don't state.

Reading the other thread you included now suggest others have found a light red (pinkish) much different from a light gray it would seem. We've seen other plants and time periods where the color have moved more white or chalky they still appear to have a strong base of epoxy red oxide primer sealer. Its not unusual for the red oxide color to vary during the production year for some unknown reason just reporting that there are normally identifiable patterns that develop with these things


If the pictures you first posted truly represent what it looks like in person then I think we have something different from the light red/pink color which is still non-typical of what was traditionally applied at NJ from firewall rearward.



  Could there have been an engineering deviation on the line during a short period to use an excess of left over paint? 

You would have to have a process to use or add the paint. Changing piping, handling and such might be a much more involved change that might not been an opinion for a short period of usage.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 09:43:48 PM by J_Speegle »
Jeff Speegle

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Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 09:37:30 PM »
So looked at the few pictures I have from that plant and time period there does appears that a number of things were going on for some reason. We really don't need IMHO to know what was going on or why but instead document what was done and try and honestly represent that in restoring cars from that plant and period

Since we don't know the order or exactly when these examples were really built their specific VINs do not matter since we can put them in order of assembly . 

So the earliest example I have pictures of this area from is 0T1028xx. Pinkish but not grey like your car





Another example - not like what you found on your car it appears  - 0T1082xx




« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 09:48:12 PM by J_Speegle »
Jeff Speegle

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Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 12:55:14 AM »
Now the last car I have that was possibly built at the same time or very near your car -0T1094xx





Only one picture of the car - but still trying to figure out what it tells us. Its difficult to tell the order of layers (bare metal, black or very dark color, exterior light blue and the light gray primer color.  But this example does not appear to show any red oxide variation anywhere on this rear section

Will try and lable and post another color for discussion
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline 70BlackMach1

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 10:27:02 PM »
Jeff,

I apologize.  The picture you show of the parking cable bracket is actually from my car.  I submitted it in another post and didn't realize I inserted the wrong picture.  The colors on it are not correct.  I had my camera on the wrong setting.  The bracket is laying on a green drafting table.  As you can see the table is not green. 

Attached here is the picture representing the real color of that same bracket.  The camera settings are correct for this one as you can see the drafting table is green.  This bracket fell off the floor pan before I had the car stripped.  I wire brushed the rust off of it.  As you can see, it better resembles the gray of the other pictures of the car. 

Sorry for the bad picture.

Barry

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2017, 12:02:34 AM »
I apologize.  The picture you show of the parking cable bracket is actually from my car.  I submitted it in another post and didn't realize I inserted the wrong picture.  The colors on it are not correct.  I had my camera on the wrong setting.  The bracket is laying on a green drafting table.  As you can see the table is not green. 

Guess this is a great example of why one can not trust what we see posted on the internet when it comes to colors, tones and tints.

You have likely seen  the picture of the aqua car before so let us discuss that one. Unfortunately we only have a single picture and one of low resolution Probelm I/m having is from just the one angle its difficult to see if the light gray is over or under other colors.




For discussion purposes I labeled finishes, coatings and such


Dark green - The light gray
Red - Sound deadener or undercoating
Purple - Bare steel/sheet metal?
Orange - Exterior color overspray. Allot of this car.
Blue - Is this signs of repair and brazing?
Light green - Is this chipping of the top coat exposing what is under - through the light gray applied to the frame rail and area.




As you can make out the wheel wells on this example also have gray pretty heavy in the wheel wells

You can make out the areas where someone has been scrapping with a pulley knife or similar plastic blade. Likely removing the undercoating and exposing the body color under in the area just behind the shock mount support

Keep getting the feeling I'm missing something, a sign or a point, in the picture that would provide a clue to what took place

On your car we had a couple of areas where it seemed it was much darker than other areas.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 12:11:05 AM by J_Speegle »
Jeff Speegle

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Offline 70BlackMach1

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2017, 12:19:04 AM »
Wow, there is a lot going on here.

So, I assume the order of application on this car was:

1) Gray primer on undercarriage
2) Gray primer in wheel wells
3) Sound deadener on undercarriage after axle and brake hardware but before driveshaft and exhaust
4) Sound deadener in wheel well after installation of suspension and axle
5) Body color with overspray on undercarriage
6) Engine compartment black (not discussed here)

I need to apply the sound deadener on the undercarriage since my car is a Mach 1?

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2017, 04:44:15 AM »
Wow, there is a lot going on here.

So, I assume the order of application on this car was:

1) Gray primer on undercarriage
2) Gray primer in wheel wells
3) Sound deadener on undercarriage after axle and brake hardware but before driveshaft and exhaust
4) Sound deadener in wheel well after installation of suspension and axle
5) Body color with overspray on undercarriage
6) Engine compartment black (not discussed here)

Uh ... no can't agree with much of that based on how the cars were typically assembled and its not like they could pick up sections of the line and move them around the factory to apply just to your car or even a group of cars IMHO IF we need to follow this line of discussion I think we'll likely break it away into a new thread


1) Gray primer on undercarriage- Will leave that alone since that is the basis of the original question

2) Gray primer in wheel wells - As mentioned a different gray, a gray primer surfacer was typically applied to the exterior body to fill the small voids and imperfections left in the red oxide application

3) Sound deadener on undercarriage after axle and brake hardware but before driveshaft and exhaust - No the sound deadener applied to the floor was most likely applied at the same station or one before or after (given the needs being different for spraying verses installation of components) when the front wheel well sound deadener was applied
But yes the sound deadener (if you have a Mustang model that was done that way) was typically done before exhaust and maybe driveline. Still working out that last detail as it may have been wrapped, shield or other wise protected from any application. Subject for another thread

4) Sound deadener in wheel well after installation of suspension and axle - The suspension and axles (and just a ton of stuff) was installed in the second part of the assembly and the rear wheel wells sound deadener was applied in the first part of assembly before body color was applied 


5) Body color with overspray on undercarriage - in the trunk in the rear wheel wells and so on

6) Engine compartment black (not discussed here) - After body paint application

Though it's for 70 Dearborn you might want to take a peek at the article in the Library here related to undercarriage painting. Might answer a number of question in general



I need to apply the sound deadener on the undercarriage since my car is a Mach 1?

As mentioned above - yes Mach I's, Grandes and some other models had an application of sound deadener applied to the floor pans,frame and things attached at the time


Now back to the discussion of the gray floor possibility ;)
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline 70BlackMach1

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2017, 12:03:23 PM »
Cool.  Thanks for that info.  I will check out that article in the Library.

Were you able to find any other evidence or pictures of gray on the undercarriage?   My car seems to be strange.  Odd in a couple other areas too (I might post those in another thread in the future).

Barry

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2017, 06:11:45 PM »
Cool.  Thanks for that info.  I will check out that article in the Library.

Were you able to find any other evidence or pictures of gray on the undercarriage?   My car seems to be strange.  Odd in a couple other areas too (I might post those in another thread in the future).

Right now I only have yours and the one I posted - no others

The one one I posted last appears to have grey primer IMHO added to the underside in area ( where it appears to have chipped off exposing color under)  Yet out in the center I can't be sure if the grey is over or under the exterior color but there at least appears to be no evidence of a red oxide colored layer anywhere in the picture so giving the picture the benefit of the doubt/ the possibility.  Too bad we don't know specifically when that car was assembled to compare as the use of grey may have been a few days to a longer (though apparently still small) window. 
Jeff Speegle

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Offline 70BlackMach1

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2017, 06:58:59 PM »
Since we have little/sketchy evidence of gray primer on the underbelly, I am sort of at an impasse here.  Do I paint the underside gray that my car seems to be or default to red oxide that most NJ cars received?  I want to be true to the car, but I don't want points deducted when judged if gray is not acceptable.  If you were judging my car, would you deduct points if the underside was gray?

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Non-Red Oxide Undercarriage Discussion - Sept/Oct 69 NJ
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2017, 07:31:31 PM »
Since we have little/sketchy evidence of gray primer on the underbelly, I am sort of at an impasse here.  Do I paint the underside gray that my car seems to be or default to red oxide that most NJ cars received?  I want to be true to the car, but I don't want points deducted when judged if gray is not acceptable.

Fully understand where your coming from. Have owned a few cars that had oddities and have know a number of owners with some also. Some were examples of poor workmanship and often those were fixed rather than live with an abnormality that likely should not have happened. In other cases the owner/builder choose to be that guy and run the risk of receiving the deduction or explaining over and over the story. 

Do have a thought though I think I know the answer. Did you put the E brake anchor point back on the car during the restoration?

Its not that its "not acceptable" Its about being out of the norm or not what would normally be expected.  This is one reason we taught judges for years to always ask during the introduction of the team to the owner "Is there anything different or unusual about your car that you would like to tell us before we get started"   Or something similar.  I had found this one sentence had served me well for decades and thought it an important one to include.  I hope that judging teams use it as it can help save some problems or issues down the road.  Basically this is an opportunity for the owner/builder to offer evidence, documentation or what ever facts they have to support something like this. The team has the choose to accept or ignore the information but they will listen and take in what is offered in order to base their decision  and go on with the judging  process

If you were judging my car, would you deduct points if the underside was gray?

So with what I stated above. If I rolled under the car and found the underside gray many judges may just write down a comment about the color not matching the rules as written and then take a deduction and go on. It's a long and often hot day and they have allot of cars to judge. Some may ask why but that slows down the process and at this point may not be as patient with the answer/response. 

If it were me - anyone who has judged with me knows I would ask before we (the team) finished judging but would be surprised that you had not mentioned it in the introduction.

If you choose to take the chance and be "that guy"  that owns the gray undercarriage car then come prepared. at least bring print outs of both of these examples, VIN's from each as well as when each was finished in an effort to support why you made the choice you did.  Even this discussion will likely fall under the gaze of one or two people who may be on the judging team who may recall this discussion, pictures and details if reminded which should work to your benefit if you choose that direction.


Sure wish I have a dozen examples to support this finding but I only have what I have at this point
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)