Author Topic: 289 Cobra engine number  (Read 6911 times)

Offline DJames

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289 Cobra engine number
« on: November 12, 2009, 01:36:41 AM »
This is a Cobra question, so, I hope that's ok. If not, sorry about that. Where, if anywhere, is the engine number stamped on a 289 Cobra? There are two of them that have been coming in where I work which have every indication of being very original, unmolested cars. All of the date codes and casting numbers are perfectly consistant with what one would expect to see on cars with the production dates that these have. There's an engine number on one of the tags, and, I was wondering where that number would have been stamped. If at all, that is. Thanks. 

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2009, 03:00:24 AM »
By "engine number" are you asking if it got a VIN number stamped on the block like the Shelby's or something else?

Going out on a limp (not a Cobra guy - one will be along any moment ;) but since the VIN's were applied at the Ford factory I'm not sure how these cars would have received one  during 64-67 period
Jeff Speegle

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Offline DJames

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2009, 10:41:16 AM »
Here is a picture of the tags on one of the cars. All 289 Cobras had these. Since Ford could not possibly have known which cars the motors were going into, and A/C was just sending chassis, it would have had to have been Shelby that stamped the number brfore the motors went into the cars. And, there is always the possibility that he just blew it off, but, that doesn't really sound like something that a person trying to establish a name as a manufacturer, rather than just another hot rod shop, would do. Thanks.

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2009, 09:31:14 PM »
Here is a picture of the tags on one of the cars. All 289 Cobras had these. Since Ford could not possibly have known which cars the motors were going into, and A/C was just sending chassis, it would have had to have been Shelby that stamped the number brfore the motors went into the cars. And, there is always the possibility that he just blew it off, but, that doesn't really sound like something that a person trying to establish a name as a manufacturer, rather than just another hot rod shop, would do. Thanks.
It was somewhat common for competition Cobras to not have the Shelby footbox tag.It is extremely hard to verify some of this info because Cobras frequently were modified from original in some aspect. If one part was modified it becomes difficult to verify for certain if another aspect of the car is modified also.  I had to verify my answer with my friend and Cobra Master Dan Case. The short answer to your question is most HP289 MKII Cobras (including works and AC Cars racers) got engines pulled out of standard HP289 Fairlane production so they had stamped engine block (not engine) serial numbers on the left side and hand painted on the back of the block just like all HP289 Fairlanes (and Comets). Stamping split between left front and left rear block tooling pads.These numbers that were already stamped into the block was what was stamped onto the Shelby footbox tag. 
 Approximately 30 cars finished after August 1964 got odd off specification built just for Shelby five bolt engines with Shelby engine assembly numbers stamped into the block by Shelby personal in left rear of engine block on tooling pad.This number was then stamped onto the Shelby footbox tag. I hope this helps. Bob
 
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline DJames

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2009, 10:19:40 PM »
Thanks.That helps a lot. That would also account for the way that the other car, CSX2507, had a slightly different type of number. It started with a PB, it seems. Thanks again.

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2009, 10:43:25 PM »
Thanks.That helps a lot. That would also account for the way that the other car, CSX2507, had a slightly different type of number. It started with a PB, it seems. Thanks again.
I have been told that ‘PA’ and ‘PB’ are common in Cobras but there are other combinations. I would very intersted in the engine number of CSX2507 as I have CSX2506. You can PM me. Bob
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline DJames

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2009, 01:11:46 AM »
I'll check on that tommorrow. That car is now back with it's owner, but I'm pretty sure that I wrote all of that down somewhere. If not, the car will be back soon. The owner now has a couple more things that he would like to have done to the car. I'll get that to you at the first opportunity. And again, thanks.

Offline Dan Case

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2018, 02:59:38 PM »
I realize this is an old thread but "Cobra engine number"s (That's 1960s AC/Shelby/Ford cars sold under CSX2xxx chassis numbers. COX/COB60xx and 61xx over seas cars are a related subject but not included below and they have an additional "engine number" topic.) gets asked so many times in so many forums I thought I would put in my commentary for anybody searching this site.
Dan

There are four (4) different sources of “engine numbers” known for new 1963-65 Cobras day one:

#1:Ford Motor Company’s engine engineering department that created very hand built (as in many parts were manually produced as required) prototype engines. In regards to Cobras they were the Experimental High Performance 260 engines. Their serial numbers started off with a prefix XHP-260-. There is some evidence that only thirty five of this type engine were built. Shelby American was not the only user of XHP-260 engines in prototype or production street or race cars.


#2:Ford Motor Company’s engine production division. In regards to Cobras they were HP260 and HP289 engines made prior to about July 1964. We have no idea how many HP260 engines were made but there were at least 137 of them because we know where that one is. Shelby American was not the only user of HP260 or HP289 engines in prototype or production street or race cars.


#3:Ford Advanced Vehicles (in the UK). One new race Cobra is claimed to have been sold with a Ford Advanced Vehicles numbered engine. (Speculation on my part is that the engine arrived at SAI installed in a Ford GT40.)

#4:Shelby American’s production department. Ford ended five bolt block engine production before all Shelby’s chassis stock received engines. We don’t know how many were ordered but 48 each odd or hybrid (model year wise), part 1964 specification and part 1965 specification, tagged as 1964 models made in the 1965 model time frame, were delivered. Ford did not serial number them so Shelby’s works created their own numbering system. These engines, made just for new Cobras in August 1964, didn’t cover all the chassis without engines. 42 of the engines were installed in new Cobras, one was used as a warrantee replacement to an owner that damaged one of the 48 racing, and the rest are unaccounted for. Fifteen (15) addition cars received 1965 model year specification Fairlane HP289s built specifically for automatic transmission. These were 1965 model year production so they were based on six bolt blocks and they received numbers assigned by Shelby’s works.

Cobra chassis were not finished in strict chassis sequential serial number order in England, a good example is the test and development chassis CSX2126 was completed before CSX2080. Cobra chassis were not shipped from AC Cars to the east coast (to Hugus) or west coast (to Shelby) in order. Once in inventory in the U.S.A. rolling chassis were not pulled from stock in numerical order to get engines, transmissions, and cooling systems installed to make them running cars.  Engines were ordered from Ford and delivered in lots. Evidence suggests that HP289 wise engines were pulled from Ford stock at random and shipped to Venice California.  Shelby American apparently had no ‘first in first out’ inventory control as once an engine was stored it could end up in any Cobra street or race completed after that.  In studying chassis, when those chassis became running cars, and engine numbers there is no pattern except there couldn’t be an engine made in July 1964 “original” to a car that first ran in February 1963.

Comparing two consecutive chassis numbers and their engines will usually not be very enlightening as there can be a few to hundreds of engines in between the two chassis; engines made in different time frames and maybe even in different model years. Example: Two consecutive VIN chassis sold as what Shelby American described as “1965 COBRA” cars have engines separated by 952 other engine serial numbers. In that pair of cars the highest serial numbered engine went into the lowest serial numbered chassis. One of the largest “spreads” in “engine numbers” I have come across was in the CSX24xx chassis contract of 6,734 engine serial numbers between a 1963 made engine and a 1964 made engine. If you understand that Ford made running changes in subassemblies and final engine assemblies over time, especially between model years, it is also clear that determining how any particular Cobra might have been equipped is not quick or easy. To have any idea how the drive train in a new Cobra was probably finished out one must know the Cobra chassis number, who completed the car (Shelby’s Venice works did the most but they were not the only shop-crew-state-country), the documented engine number associated with the car, and the engine assembly date stamped into the engine block.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 06:31:27 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline mikeljgt500kr

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2018, 06:55:40 PM »
Thank you very much, this is very good and vital info for us Cobra owners to know.
I don't always downshift, but when I do it is near a Prius so they can hear me hurting the environment.

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2018, 07:24:46 PM »
Thank you very much, this is very good and vital info for us Cobra owners to know.
What is the CSX number of your Cobra?
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2018, 08:30:00 PM »
I realize this is an old thread but "Cobra engine number"s gets asked so many times in so many forums I thought I would put in my commentary for anybody searching this site.
Dan


Thanks Dan for taking the time
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline mikeljgt500kr

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2018, 10:36:57 AM »
What is the CSX number of your Cobra?

7972

CSX7972 is stamped on the block in the back, along with assembly date, thanks to Shelby Engine Company policy.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 01:16:45 PM by mikeljgt500kr »
I don't always downshift, but when I do it is near a Prius so they can hear me hurting the environment.

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2018, 02:58:43 PM »
7972

CSX7972 is stamped on the block in the back, along with assembly date, thanks to Shelby Engine Company policy.
I am aware that you had a very nice 7000 series Cobra.  I thought you might have purchased a CSX 2000 or 3000 series vintage Cobra that I was not aware of . Although good to know by any Cobra owner the info Dan provided is relevant to the vintage Cobras. In case you are not aware the build techniques in this engine number regard are not relevant to the 90's on up continuation series Cobras.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline Dan Case

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2018, 06:26:53 PM »
Thanks Dan for taking the time

You are most welcome. Some questions seem to come up frequently somewhere, sometime, or another. An issue is something posted today can be lost in the next hack or system crash or just a discontinued website. Some sites I participated in ten years ago for example have been discontinued and unless you can find a cached copy those threads are just gone.

It is easy to cut and paste text from my archive but sharing pictures has been a problem for years....here today and gone tomorrow so to speak when stored / posted online somewhere.
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline mikeljgt500kr

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Re: 289 Cobra engine number
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2018, 02:38:53 PM »
I am aware that you had a very nice 7000 series Cobra.  I thought you might have purchased a CSX 2000 or 3000 series vintage Cobra that I was not aware of . Although good to know by any Cobra owner the info Dan provided is relevant to the vintage Cobras. In case you are not aware the build techniques in this engine number regard are not relevant to the 90's on up continuation series Cobras.

Yep, same old Bob.......... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I don't always downshift, but when I do it is near a Prius so they can hear me hurting the environment.