ConcoursMustang Forums

1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 => 1967 - 1968 => Topic started by: cmfuser01 on April 02, 2017, 10:36:35 AM

Title: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: cmfuser01 on April 02, 2017, 10:36:35 AM
Though the title says GT 350 I believe this question is germane to other SJ built cars of the same period.

I need to understand, and hopefully photos can be provided, what the correct finish would be for the inside, back side or underside (however it's referred to) of the front fenders... and I mean just the fenders themselves. Some photos I've seen look like a combination of red oxide and bare steel and some folks talk about sound deadener.

Any and all guidance is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: 67gtasanjose on April 02, 2017, 11:04:05 AM
My 11/2/66 built SJ example has a brownish-pink almost salmon colored primer on the undersides of the fenders (I have not stripped them yet) There is NO SIGN of any sound deadener on them at all nor any undercoating of any sort. I could look again around the headlight area to double check for any usage of any sealant, but I think this is fairly accurate. There was no sign of sealant on the rear fender splash shield as found on other examples from other plants and time periods. There is obvious body color over sprayed on top of this primer/sealer at insides of rear fender reinforcement and headlamp area as well as the wheel opening, with overspray lightly reaching the under side of the fender's top due to the wheel opening. I'd say about 60-80% of the under side of the fender you see the primer sealer and the remainder is body color overspray. Scarely any "bare metal" found but any noted would be what was missed by the primer coat and limited to areas like behind the rear welded in fender support since the primer was sprayed (not dipped).
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: cmfuser01 on April 02, 2017, 01:57:39 PM
My 11/2/66 built SJ example has a brownish-pink almost salmon colored primer on the undersides of the fenders (I have not stripped them yet) There is NO SIGN of any sound deadener on them at all nor any undercoating of any sort. I could look again around the headlight area to double check for any usage of any sealant, but I think this is fairly accurate. There was no sign of sealant on the rear fender splash shield as found on other examples from other plants and time periods. There is obvious body color over sprayed on top of this primer/sealer at insides of rear fender reinforcement and headlamp area as well as the wheel opening, with overspray lightly reaching the under side of the fender's top due to the wheel opening. I'd say about 60-80% of the under side of the fender you see the primer sealer and the remainder is body color overspray. Scarely any "bare metal" found but any noted would be what was missed by the primer coat and limited to areas like behind the rear welded in fender support since the primer was sprayed (not dipped).

Thanks Richard! This seems like an excellent description.
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: J_Speegle on April 02, 2017, 07:06:35 PM
Would not expect to see any bare steel on the back side on an original. Rust may have developed over decades of poor storage and such.

Back sides of the fenders can be (looking at originals) heavy dusting/coat of paint just about everywhere (if the worker for some reason got carried away) or a red oxide with limited body color overspray  and areas of nice exterior color in the logical locations.  What I mean by that is there are exterior surfaces of the fender that were coated and when sprayed would produce direct application of body color on panels directly behind or next those panels. In addition there are areas, such as the back end of the fender that would be visible through the door opening when the door was fully opened, the headlight area, from painting the wheel lip section, area behind the surface where the front valance would be attached.  What you don't want is a spot where you have a nice shinny coat of body color and directly next to or behind, by a couple of inches no overspray. This suggests that your painted taped off the openings and tried to fake the overspray later.  Also the new guns (painters sometimes use small guns for the details) don't apply a nice fog of overspray like the original guns and you can often tell the difference

As for sound deadener I've found about 20-30% of the cars with sound deadener along the back side of the front fenders that was applied at the same time as the inner fender panels. From below in a pit so the under sides of the top of the fender was pretty easy to run the wand along. This pass would often include the inner fender panel lip.

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-020417180546-69181660.jpeg)

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-020417180547-69191599.jpeg)

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-020417180548-69201422.jpeg)

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-020417180549-6921819.jpeg)
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: brennancarey on April 03, 2017, 01:51:31 AM
Hi,

Interesting.... thks for the info.

Would the salmon red primer on inner front fenders be for all assembly plants ? Ie would Dearborn also have salmon red primer on front fenders or slop grey ?
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: J_Speegle on April 03, 2017, 01:55:43 AM
Hi,

Interesting.... thks for the info.

Would the salmon red primer on inner front fenders be for all assembly plants ? Ie would Dearborn also have salmon red primer on front fenders or slop grey ?

The panels that arrived, like fenders and hoods, already were primered prior to their arrival at the plants so that finish (strong red oxide or a variation) would be dependent on when they were painted at the sheet metal plant and what plant they were made at.

Has nothing to do with the sealer/primer applied to the floor or unibody at each plant.

So an Oct 66 Dearborn front fender might have straight true red oxide, a lighter shade or a darker one. The pictures I posted are not something I would describe as "salmon" in person
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: brennancarey on April 04, 2017, 09:05:19 AM
The panels that arrived, like fenders and hoods, already were primered prior to their arrival at the plants so that finish (strong red oxide or a variation) would be dependent on when they were painted at the sheet metal plant and what plant they were made at.

Has nothing to do with the sealer/primer applied to the floor or unibody at each plant.

So an Oct 66 Dearborn front fender might have straight true red oxide, a lighter shade or a darker one. The pictures I posted are not something I would describe as "salmon" in person

oh.... ok.... never would have thought of that but makes prefect sense.. we keep on learning !
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: Bossbill on September 12, 2017, 09:12:52 PM
The salmon color appears to be just a light red-oxide.
My early February 67 date stamped SJ Shelby has Dearborn fenders as indicated by the D stamp
on a lot of its individual date stamped fender pieces.
[on edit -- These are NOT Dearborn fenders -- see post below]

You can really make out the salmon color when you sand through the light misted color on the interior of the fender:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4375/37195049435_ef4c8057d1.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YENmkM)
[click on this picture to be taken my Flickr site. Click on Flickr site picture to zoom]

More pics of this fender are available.

It appears I need new shoes too.
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: J_Speegle on September 12, 2017, 09:48:05 PM
My early February 67 date stamped SJ Shelby has Dearborn fenders as indicated by the D stamp
on a lot of its individual date stamped fender pieces.

More pics of this fender are available.

Did you find the date on the headlight section, rear support or on the fender lip?  The pattern you reported doesn't match with that was used on the fender lip during your cars build period from the pictures and cars I have records of.
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: Bossbill on September 12, 2017, 10:45:26 PM
No, you are correct.
The fender was very dirty in the fender lip area and even cleaned up it was very hard to read.
I wrote D in my notes based on the other D parts.

Today I took both fenders out and applied a generous coat of paint stripper and removed the grunge.
The fenders do not designate "D", rather they just indicate a shift (3) with no plant designation at all on the right fender
while the left just has a date code with no shift or plant designation.

Sorry for the confusion.
[editted to clean up some verbiage]
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: J_Speegle on September 13, 2017, 01:58:06 AM
I took both fenders out and applied a generous coat of paint stripper and removed the grunge.
The fenders are do not designate "D", rather they just indicate a shift (3) with no designation at all on the right fender
and the left just has a date code with no shift or plant designation.


Should (typical of that year and plant) have the month, day of month and shift as shown in the parts dating article posted in the Library Looks like you just mistakenly added shift to your last sentence but mentioned it had shift on the line above that one
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: Bossbill on September 13, 2017, 11:38:09 AM
I'm not sure if this board wants us to correct a previous post or clean up any confusion in a later post. I'll do the later.


I understand the sheet metal coding, but my sentence was rather awkward, wasn't it?
I was in a hurry to clear up the Dearborn post and used my phone . . .

Right fender has this format on the fender lip (I made up the day and month, but the shift info portion is as stamped):
1 20 3

Left fender has
2 3

The left fender is stamped/built the same day as the Ford actual build date as noted on my Marti report.
It does not have a shift stamp.

If you like I can PM the pics of the stamps (with the correct dates) to you personally.
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: J_Speegle on September 13, 2017, 05:15:25 PM
Right fender has this format on the fender lip (I made up the day and month, but the shift info portion is as stamped):
1 20 3

Left fender has
2 3

The left fender is stamped/built the same day as the Ford actual build date as noted on my Marti report.
It does not have a shift stamp.

If you like I can PM the pics of the stamps (with the correct dates) to you personally.

Its likely better to go back and correct or strike through the incorrect information in our posts because some may read only that one post and not the correction posts that follow and in turn getting incorrect information

As for the one fender with only the two digits - I would believe that it was a poor stamping and its missing the month (in your case a 1) from the stamping.

In my thinking here are the reasons for that conclusion

- The fender could not be stamped the same day as the car was finished 

- Comparing your cars real build date to other cars finished the same day shows those examples with the same day of the month for the fender stamping (with shift identifier also) as yours suggesting that yours is missing the first digit

No need for pictures of the fender stampings - the information (dates) are what are important for the data collection but would be interested in what Shelby number the car is for filing of the info. Have a good idea of what the Ford VIN is within 100 or less I would guess  ;) There were at least two groups (orders) of 67 Shelbys being completed that day.

Thanks for sharing the dates
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: 67gtasanjose on September 13, 2017, 05:54:31 PM
There should be a couple other date stamps on your fender. The housing spot-welded in around the headlight and the upright reinforcement back where the fender meets up to the door, to name a few
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: Bossbill on September 15, 2017, 11:48:09 AM
I'm out of state right now getting these fenders dipped. Few places do this anymore. I want all traces of corrosion gone. Let's not sidetrack into that topic . . .

The stamp was very poor on the driver's side. Jeff's explanation makes sense. I don't have the headlight data with me, but will report back when I get the  fenders back next week.
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: Fastback2013 on September 16, 2017, 07:51:59 AM
Hello,

Here are some pictures of my fender, driver side.
I took this last week off, so I didn't have the time for cleaning it up.
But I think you're getting a good idea of what it should be after washing it ;)
I took also a closeup of the date stamp at the headlight and the upright reinforcement.
Kind regards,
Jeroen
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: 67gtasanjose on September 16, 2017, 11:56:38 AM
Below, I have included pictures of underside of my known original, date stamp supporting, SJ final assembly date 11/02/66 example. Very IMPORTANT NOTE: This fender was originally Ivy Gold, so the darker underside of fender coloring best represents the actual color found and the lighter shades are the Ivy Gold overspray. (Repaint was dark green)

The original poster was looking for a color sample for EARLY October and this would qualify as late October, very early November. The color sample of what I earlier referred to as salmon, I suppose we can call light red oxide but I think it has a pinkish hue in person (so to me, more like salmon). On my monitor, it looks JUST LIKE the color I see in person. Photo was taken outdoors in natural light, no flash. FWIW, another fender I have dated December has much the same color on the underside, at least what you can make out of it. It is no where near as clean as the pictured examples I have included below.

I find at least 5 date stamps on every original 67 fender I have (3 originals) and only 1 (date?) stamping found (only on the fender lip) of both of the 2 Ford Service replacements I have on hand. One of the service replacements is a "used", later (1990's) black one and the other is an April of '81 shipping label dated, red oxide version, that hasn't been installed before.
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: J_Speegle on September 16, 2017, 03:38:40 PM
Richard - just for comparison what is the date from the fender lip of that fender?  If you please :)
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: 67gtasanjose on September 16, 2017, 04:08:50 PM
Richard - just for comparison what is the date from the fender lip of that fender?  If you please :)
Sure.
Fender lip 10 13 3
Panel behind headlamp (pictured earlier) 10 14 D3 (backwards D)
Rear Fender Reinforce (pictured earlier) 10 11 D3 (backwards D)
Rear Fender Sideways Support 9 11 D2 (backwards D)
Headlight Panel Brace (pictured earlier) 10 8 2D

Although this thread started out about underside fender color and spray patterns, somewhere it took a turn into date codes found. I suppose all pertinent info but now things seem a bit jumbled.

In an effort to get back on track and since today I just pulled out all of my fenders again, let me explain how I got close to the correct under fender color. It begins with my floorpan paint.

After a color scan of my floorpan, I had my paint store mix me a quart to their closest match. It came in much darker than what was on the floor. I sprayed a patch of the paint on the underbody (floorpans) and sprayed some in a similar patch area onto the fender (see picture this post). You can see how much it was too dark. Since both test sprays were wrong to the same or similar extent of the original colors desired, I then took this fender to the paint store. I could not get my paint store to tweek it any better than what is seen in some paint daubs just to the left of the sprayed in patch. The tweaked color was then tested onto the floorpan prior to shooting the whole floor. It was IMHO, about the +95% same of each other. Summary: This original color seen on the underside of my known original fender was IMHO, very close to the original floorpan color. This may not be the "norm" but it is as close as I was able to get things given my location and willingness (or lack of willingness perhaps) of my paint stores.

Although the quart I bought is almost used up after shooting the floorpans last weekend (9/9/17), I am planning to use what I have left over from the floorpans to touch up 1.) where the rotisserie is attached and 2.) use what is left on the undersides of my fenders since I felt it was as close as the paint store could (or would) duplicate.
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: J_Speegle on September 16, 2017, 07:47:51 PM
Sure.
Fender lip 10 13 3
Panel behind headlamp (pictured earlier) 10 14 D3 (backwards D)
Rear Fender Reinforce (pictured earlier) 10 11 D3 (backwards D)
Rear Fender Sideways Support 9 11 D2 (backwards D)
Headlight Panel Brace (pictured earlier) 10 8 2D

Thanks.

How does the dates compare to the rest of the car and could this be a replacement?  Just noticed the shadow from the label  in the one picture
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: 67gtasanjose on September 17, 2017, 01:09:37 AM
Thanks.

How does the dates compare to the rest of the car and could this be a replacement?  Just noticed the shadow from the label  in the one picture

Dates about two weeks before actual build date. Absolutely original to car. The spot you might think is  a label must be the test spray area. Read my earlier message. It is explained in detail
...After a color scan of my floorpan, I had my paint store mix me a quart to their closest match. It came in much darker than what was on the floor. I sprayed a patch of the paint on the underbody (floorpans) and sprayed some in a similar patch area onto the fender (see picture this post). You can see how much it was too dark. Since both test sprays were wrong to the same or similar extent of the original colors desired, I then took this fender to the paint store. I could not get my paint store to tweek it any better than what is seen in some paint daubs just to the left of the sprayed in patch. The tweaked color was then tested onto the floorpan prior to shooting the whole floor. It was IMHO, about the +95% same of each other. Summary: This original color seen on the underside of my known original fender was IMHO, very close to the original floorpan color. This may not be the "norm" but it is as close as I was able to get things given my location and willingness (or lack of willingness perhaps) of my paint stores.

Although the quart I bought is almost used up after shooting the floorpans last weekend (9/9/17), I am planning to use what I have left over from the floorpans to touch up 1.) where the rotisserie is attached and 2.) use what is left on the undersides of my fenders since I felt it was as close as the paint store could (or would) duplicate.

Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: J_Speegle on September 17, 2017, 01:49:34 AM
Dates about two weeks before actual build date. Absolutely original to car. The spot you might think is  a label must be the test spray area. Read my earlier message. It is explained in detail

Thanks
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: Bossbill on September 20, 2017, 03:31:46 PM
Finishing my tangent on date codes, all of the supports and other pieces in the fender all have dates within approximately 6 weeks prior to the fender lip date. A dip did not result in any resolution on the one fender, missing its month date of 1.

Although this is an early March SJ car, here is a pic of the complete underside:
[select any pic to be taken to Flickr, where another click will zoom in]

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4339/37207560141_337fa5658e.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YFUtkB)

Please note the car was undercoated sometime in its life.

In case you wonder how well the dip process works, I very pleased to have this result:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4379/36953603390_461e4e8790.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YisSQW)

DP74LP will be sloshed around on surfaces not visible.
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: caspian65 on September 20, 2017, 05:15:48 PM
If you haven't done so already, you might consider using a pressure washer on the seams or where 2 pieces of metal are spot welded together.  I've had parts dipped in the past, only to have paint ruined later because the stripping chemical came out of the seams.
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: J_Speegle on September 20, 2017, 07:48:19 PM
If you haven't done so already, you might consider using a pressure washer on the seams or where 2 pieces of metal are spot welded together.  I've had parts dipped in the past, only to have paint ruined later because the stripping chemical came out of the seams.

Chemical creep can be a very real issue. Did one car that was chemically dipped. IMHO won't do it again but just me
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: Bossbill on September 20, 2017, 09:43:45 PM
This place has been doing dipping for decades. It specializes in full car dipping.
But it doesn't just dip and send you home. That can cause problems, as you are aware.

* They dip in a hot bath (of unknown, maybe caustic soda)  at over 200 degrees for 2 days
* High Pressure water cleaning
* Acid tank submersion for 2 days. Neutralizes the previous hot bath solution and treats the rust. The rust issues in certain places is why I decided on this method. Mostly in the headlight bucket (rear or vertical) area
* High Pressure water cleaning
* Rust inhibitor bath
* Force Air dry

They laugh when the 'other guys' methods are mentioned. They don't have creep or subsequent paint issues.
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: 67gtasanjose on September 23, 2017, 01:19:04 PM
FWIW, I stripped my original October date-stamped fender and found this "light red oxide", pinkish-colored, salmon colored, whatever you wish to call it, it was everywhere on this fender, outside, under original body color, underneath on the bottom (as mentioned earlier).

The stripping layers went as follows (including outside):
1.) Top layers were 3 re-paints (removed with 1st and 2nd stripping)
2.) black primer (applied under 1st re-paint)
(below is original paint removal)
3.) original ivy-gold body color
4.) light grey primer (outside of fender only)
5.) salmon color (or whatever you wish to call it) sealer coat over all of the inside & outside surfaces

The color of the factory sealer coating (in my opinion), is much the same as the original underbody color, perhaps a few shades lighter but very close.
Title: Re: 1967 GT 350 (Early 10/66) Inner Front Fender Finishing ?
Post by: J_Speegle on September 23, 2017, 06:37:56 PM
Thanks Richard - supports what we've seen on other cars