ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Suspension => Topic started by: preaction on July 04, 2015, 05:23:08 PM
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I looked in a 67 shop manual and it lists .810 as a rotor thickness but not a wear limit does anyone remember one and am I missing this info in the shop manual.
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You use the same rotors (C5ZZ-11002-B) as the 64-66 Mustangs do and the answer I got from my brake guy was no more than 0.010 inch, aka 0.800 inch. The 66 shop manual has it listed as a 0.002 inch "runout" which is supposed to be the same as wear. There are too many variables not specified in the shop manual. As your brake shop for their opinion.
Jim
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The '67 shop manual also contains the following, but the diagram doesn't make sense. Dimension "A" is listed as "maximum" - seems like it should be a minimum. And dimensions "A" & "B" combined would equal over 1.5 inches - does not correspond to the .810" dimension listed on the specs page. Weird.
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Thank you, it seems odd that theirs a wear value for the drums and not the rotors.
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is the minimum thickness not cast into the inside rotor surface??
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I looked into this last year and believe I found the answer over on VMF site. I wish I could recall exactly what it was but think it was like .780", not much room from a stock rotor to be turned more than say one time for runout,(warp) if it's grooved, chances are it is no good.
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What bothers me is that, with most of the crap repop rotors coming from China, many of them have to be trued in a brake lathe before you can use them because the runout is so poor. It used to be that all you had to do was spray them with brake clean, grease and install the bearings and put them on the car.
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Can anyone identify this rotor, I know the repops are close but different.
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author=67gtasanjose
I looked into this last year and believe I found the answer over on VMF site. I wish I could recall exactly what it was but think it was like .780", not much room from a stock rotor to be turned more than say one time for runout,(warp) if it's grooved, chances are it is no good.
Pretty good memory. Brian
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What bothers me is that, with most of the crap repop rotors coming from China, many of them have to be trued in a brake lathe before you can use them because the runout is so poor.
After a couple of hard brakings you'll have to true them once again ;D
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After a couple of hard brakings you'll have to true them once again ;D
That's true!
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Thanks Brian it was hard for me to see the inside of the rotor with it on the car.
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Can anyone identify this rotor, I know the repops are close but different.
it is at the very least older because I it is 2 piece instead of the current one piece aftermarket.
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Who makes the best repop rotors these days? Checked mine today and they are at .775
or, Brian maybe you want to see those rotors go to good use on my car?
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Who makes the best repop rotors these days? Checked mine today and they are at .775
or, Brian maybe you want to see those rotors go to good use on my car?
unfortunityly none are the 2 piece style . The one piece is easily distinguished as after market and non original.
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author=sgibbs
Who makes the best repop rotors these days? Checked mine today and they are at .775
or, Brian maybe you want to see those rotors go to good use on my car?
As Bob points out the C5ZZ rotors may not be your best choice. NAPA sells what appears to be a rotor with these same spec's, is affordable, and may be more in line with your needs. Brian
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Thanks Brian,
No great rush to replace as I drive it less than a tank of gas every year. Will add to my list of parts to source, or maybe someone will start to repop a better version in the future.
Also sent a pm
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Do the rotors have a date code on them ? I saw that there is on the rear drums but never gave any attention to the front rotors.
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You can still get the original style rotors. It uses the original disc brake hub, which you'll have to press the wheel studs out to separate the rotor from the hub. Part Number is: 6004RGS. They are available via OReilly.
Nominal is: .0810 Minimum thickness is: .780. Runout is: .002.
I am trying to figure out how to restore the hub being they have been glass beaded and painted Eastwood's Detail Gray.
Here are pictures for reference.
I hope this is helpful.
-Keith
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You can still get the original style rotors. It uses the original disc brake hub, which you'll have to press the wheel studs out to separate the rotor from the hub. Part Number is: 6004RGS. They are available via OReilly.
Nominal is: .0810 Minimum thickness is: .780. Runout is: .002.
I am trying to figure out how to restore the hub being they have been glass beaded and painted Eastwood's Detail Gray.
Here are pictures for reference.
I hope this is helpful.
-Keith
Once you press the studs and hub back on to the new rotor you will have to have it turned to true it up.
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Bob: There isn't much meat on these. .030 and they are at minimum spec. I think I will check the hub for run out while I'm at it. I was going to buy new hubs, but I don't think the drum hubs are the same as the disc.
-Keith
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Bob: There isn't much meat on these. .030 and they are at minimum spec. I think I will check the hub for run out while I'm at it. I was going to buy new hubs, but I don't think the drum hubs are the same as the disc.
-Keith
With new bearing races installed, you can machine the hub sufaces on a brake drum lathe. (against the disc and the surface facing the wheel)
Naturally, you should refinish the cast iron look of the hub before machining.
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Richard, have you had them done before on a brake lathe?
-Keith
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I have done one of mine already (I own a brake lathe)
I made a hub adapter for straightening my Styled Steel Wheels on (wheels needed to be hub-centric). Not a difficult task, just separate the rotor and center the hub using the brake lathe's wheel bearing adapters, not the "cone" adapters. If memory serves, I used the rotor cutting head, cutting only one face surface at a time.
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Richard,
All went well. The hubs were returned to the "as cast" hub, and they machined the face of the hub before I installed the new rotors onto the original K/H hubs.
The first place I went tried to tell me that the stud holes would damage the brake lathe cutting tool. I asked it they turned drilled and slotted, which they did. Sometimes people aren't too smart.
-Keith
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Richard,
All went well. They the hubs were returned to the "as cast" hub, and they machined the face of the hub before I installed the new rotors onto the original K/H hubs.
The first place I went tried to tell me that the stud holes would damage the brake lathe cutting tool. I asked it they turned drilled and slotted, which they did. Sometimes people aren't too smart.
-Keith
Ha! Kids these days! ;D Many places will not do things they haven't already tried once, fear of causing damage to your part, maybe?...but probably because they don't own the machine & want to stay employed there.
I owned the extra hub and the lathe so for me, it was an easy choice to try it. Outside the box thinking is much better than "canned BS". 8)
This is a much better idea, IMHO than machining a new rotor. For whatever else it is worth, you could be able to test the new rotor for runout on the brake lathe BEFORE mounting it onto the hub and also check it AGAIN, after pressing the studs in (assembling it). That is my plan anyways.
I sure am pleased that somebody is offering the new replacement rotors again.(without being one-piece design), but I can surely see WHY they switched to a one piece design when the tolerances are so narrow.
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Ha! Kids these days! ;D Many places will not do things they haven't already tried once, fear of causing damage to your part, maybe?...but probably because they don't own the machine & want to stay employed there.
I owned the extra hub and the lathe so for me, it was an easy choice to try it. Outside the box thinking is much better than "canned BS". 8)
This is a much better idea, IMHO than machining a new rotor. For whatever else it is worth, you could be able to test the new rotor for runout on the brake lathe BEFORE mounting it onto the hub and also check it AGAIN, after pressing the studs in (assembling it). That is my plan anyways.
I sure am pleased that somebody is offering the new replacement rotors again.(without being one-piece design), but I can surely see WHY they switched to a one piece design when the tolerances are so narrow.
To clarify for those reading, it is the seperate rotor hat and not the complete two piece hub and rotor assembly that is again available. Agree it is a welcome change.
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Richard,
All went well. They the hubs were returned to the "as cast" hub, and they machined the face of the hub before I installed the new rotors onto the original K/H hubs.
The first place I went tried to tell me that the stud holes would damage the brake lathe cutting tool. I asked it they turned drilled and slotted, which they did. Sometimes people aren't too smart.
-Keith
How true did the rotor /hub assembly turn out after truing the hubs and pressing the hat on?
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You can still get the original style rotors. It uses the original disc brake hub, which you'll have to press the wheel studs out to separate the rotor from the hub. Part Number is: 6004RGS. They are available via OReilly.
Nominal is: .0810 Minimum thickness is: .780. Runout is: .002.
-Keith
I just ordered a pair from my local O-Wowie's...Manager says they are the last two in the US!
I might be asking him more details once these arrive, (and confirmed same) See if there can be another pallet sent over from "The Orient" for other interested parties ;)
I'll keep you posted :D
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How true did the rotor /hub assembly turn out after truing the hubs and pressing the hat on?
Bob,
it took .004 to true one and .007 for the other.
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You can still get the original style rotors. It uses the original disc brake hub, which you'll have to press the wheel studs out to separate the rotor from the hub. Part Number is: 6004RGS. They are available via OReilly.
Nominal is: .0810 Minimum thickness is: .780. Runout is: .002.
I am trying to figure out how to restore the hub being they have been glass beaded and painted Eastwood's Detail Gray.
Here are pictures for reference.
I hope this is helpful.
-Keith
Keith, you might double check this figure ;)
Bob,
it too .004 to true one and .007 for the other.
Too bad the new rotors themselves are not too even in the first place, did you happen to have them checked before pressing them together with the hubs?
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I did not have them checked for run out prior to assembly, however, pulling the studs in, I would imagine has a huge chance of distortion. Be SURE to lubricate the splined area on the studs, it really does help in pulling them in.
-Keith
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I just got my pair in. I cashed in a "Professional's Coupon" (I had my store price-match my local warehouse for the typical hub/rotor combo ;) bought for under $31 each :D)
I spun them on my brake lathe, very pleased, less than .001" runout :D
Here are a couple of images. Looking for ideas to make as Concours as possible. I suppose I should machine off the stampings but what about the machining the manufacturer did for balancing? Maybe leave it alone?
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By the way, they are sold under Raybestos brand name as well.
-Keith
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By the way, they are sold under Raybestos brand name as well.
-Keith
Just make sure they are American made. Last Raybestos wheel cylinders I purchased were made in china, complete with metric bleeders.
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Just make sure they are American made. Last Raybestos wheel cylinders I purchased were made in china, complete with metric bleeders.
DREAMER ON FORUM! DREAMER ON THE FORUM!
There are VERY FEW things still made in this country, just because a name USED TO BE "American", never assume it is.
In the situation of these rotors, the particular item of the discussion, NOBODY AMERICAN nor WORLDWIDE has been known to be manufacturing the original design, two piece hub, separate of the rotor, ROTOR used on the 65-67 Mustangs (for maybe about 10 years? Maybe longer???)
Keith happened onto a supplier who did but noted, they are MADE IN CHINA.
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By the way, they are sold under Raybestos brand name as well.
-Keith
Just checked Raybestos company website and they only list "Disc Brake Rotor and Hub Assembly". Nothing else. Not a big surprise that it is obsolete with them also but I was hoping for something different.
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Just checked Raybestos company website and they only list "Disc Brake Rotor and Hub Assembly". Nothing else. Not a big surprise that it is obsolete with them also but I was hoping for something different.
I happened to be addressing this note ALSO, and can confirm, only the HUB/ROTOR as an assembly.
Bob, and recommendations to using the ones I pictured yesterday? I felt I should machine off the stampings at least. What are your thoughts, given the "unavailable" aspect of these original type rotors. I have 2 original and another service replacement but only one original is barely under spec without truing it up again and the one service replacement is about the same. The 2nd original is way too thin.
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I just got my pair in. I cashed in a "Professional's Coupon" (I had my store price-match my local warehouse for the typical hub/rotor combo ;) bought for under $31 each :D)
I spun them on my brake lathe, very pleased, less than .001" runout :D
Here are a couple of images. Looking for ideas to make as Concours as possible. I suppose I should machine off the stampings but what about the machining the manufacturer did for balancing? Maybe leave it alone?
You may want to spray cast blast in between the ribs on the edge leaving the machined outer rim. Same same on the inside ribs . Flash rusting in the rib area is the most common place it is visable. Of course treat the machined areas with something like boe shield or at least a clear.
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DREAMER ON FORUM! DREAMER ON THE FORUM!
There are VERY FEW things still made in this country, just because a name USED TO BE "American", never assume it is.
In the situation of these rotors, the particular item of the discussion, NOBODY AMERICAN nor WORLDWIDE has been known to be manufacturing the original design, two piece hub, separate of the rotor, ROTOR used on the 65-67 Mustangs (for maybe about 10 years? Maybe longer???)
Keith happened onto a supplier who did but noted, they are MADE IN CHINA.
You may say I'm a dreamer.... But I'm not the only one. Once you get chinese brakes, there will be no stopping you.
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You may say I'm a dreamer.... But I'm not the only one. Once you get chinese brakes, there will be no stopping you.
;D WOW, "Imagine" that!
Hey John Lennon, be nice :)
I could quote Supertramps Lyrics for "Dreamer", 2nd verse might fit here rather humorously...but I'll play nice :D
Love the play on words :D
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Stop stirring the pot, Rich.. I'll have to jump on the bandwagon. After dealing with far too many idiots on the job over the years, I have become a very proficient smart ass. ;D
On a serious note: You saw in the in-cut out, on edge of the rotor " made in China" too, I read.
-Keith
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You may want to spray cast blast in between the ribs on the edge leaving the machined outer rim. Same same on the inside ribs . Flash rusting in the rib area is the most common place it is visable. Of course treat the machined areas with something like boe shield or at least a clear.
After painting the inside fins try and machine off the stampings on the edge. That edge and the separate hub are what is going to be seen once wheel is mounted. The separate hub and lack of stampings on the edge will be the defining factor of if "assemblyline like' .
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Bob, did you see the strange inset on the rotor where the venting is on these?
-Keith
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Bob, did you see the strange inset on the rotor where the venting is on these?
-Keith
It must be some kind of fixture holding area for machining of other areas of the rotor. Not much you can do with that. The main thing is that it is separate from the hub IMO . Taking off the stampings on the edge is just icing on the cake to make it less noticeable it is a replacement .it is till better then the one piece IMO.
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Bob, did you see the strange inset on the rotor where the venting is on these?
-Keith
The inset on the edge I believe would be "material removal" for the sake of balancing out the machined casting.
I have observed weights inserted or welded on various "old school" rotors... again, presumably for balancing.
Now discussing the three older rotors I have on hand, two believed as original, factory installed on my car and a third donor (has CENTURY cast into the inside) which I purchased last year from a member of VMF, do not have this machining for balance. Instead, the ones thought to be original, have balance weights welded on. The one with CENTURY cast into the rotor, has no such weights and no such machining. From an engineering standpoint, I cannot see a way to "balance" a hub by itself very easily... however, after a hub would be pressed onto a rotor, I can easily see how the assembly could be balanced.
IMHO, THIS MAY BE WHY WE SEE ONLY ROTOR/HUB ASSEMBLIES available these days. Not just for the inherent defects of "runout problems" like we have been discussing, but also because the two would likely have been FINAL MACHINED for runout AND balanced "as an assembly" (at the factory or manufacturer).
My intentions were to replicate the factory look as best I can with these "Chinitas". Fortunately only one of the "Chinitas" I have obtained has this machining.
As far as the "balancing" issue goes, I will simply leave the rotor with the "groove" cut into it, in play at this time. I'm thinking the hub, by itself, will not contribute too much for any "balance" issue since it is so close to the center of centrifugal force. I will do the machining on both hubs (as previously discussed in this thread) & recheck the assembled hub & rotor for runout and if it is within factory service tolerances (.002"), leave them alone.
Since my local O'Reilley's manager said these were the last two in the country, I suppose having one a bit less than par will be as good as I can get at this time.
On another thought,
Keith, do either of yours do have these machined out areas?
I'm pondering asking if Corporate O-Wowey (my name for OReilley's) if they can make another bulk order of these...maybe trade one in for one without the cut-outs....or just cave in with the idea that Keith & I simply just "got lucky" getting the last two pair available.
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I did not have them checked for run out prior to assembly, however, pulling the studs in, I would imagine has a huge chance of distortion. Be SURE to lubricate the splined area on the studs, it really does help in pulling them in.
-Keith
Reply to an older post in this thread:
It might be a better idea to "press" the studs in rather than "pull" them in. I have done both. I have also "pounded" the studs in a few times (many years ago, never since buying a press).
My usual method of setting the rotor & hub up in the press is using an old takeoff rotor positioned upright as a 'pressing fixture' and with the new rotor face-to-face with the old rotor & 'starting all studs' first using a brass drift and a hammer tamping them lightly into place, then pressing each stud one at a time till MOSTLY seated (rotor still floats a little at this point), followed by a final seating of each stud till they bottom out.
The final result should minimize any distortion but more importantly, not damaging the original studs either.
"Pulling" the studs in (in my experience) has at times 'stretched the studs' slightly, making the lug nuts thread poorly (unable to spin the nuts by using only fingers afterwards)
"Pounding" the studs in, even with a brass drift, just sounds very amateur...This choice of procedure can't be very good with such a low tolerance machined product.
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/\/\ Great idea. What I wil do next time. I used the "pull" method when replacing just one broken stud, and I have noticed the " lug thread issue" when using an OEM style stud. Otherwise I take them to a friend's shop where there is a press.
;D WOW, "Imagine" that!
Hey John Lennon, be nice :)
I could quote Supertramps Lyrics for "Dreamer", 2nd verse might fit here rather humorously...but I'll play nice :D
Love the play on words :D
You better play nice or I'm tellin' mom.
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Richard, I assume you mean the unusual small flat places on the outside edge of the rotor? Yes, mine do as well. Only sharp eyes would detect the issue, as I was more concerned with the "Made In China" on the edge. If someone else needed a pair of these rotors, let me know. I may have access to another pair. Did they give you 6004 RGS?
-Keith
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Richard, I assume you mean the unusual small flat places on the outside edge of the rotor? Yes, mine do as well. Only sharp eyes would detect the issue, as I was more concerned with the "Made In China" on the edge. If someone else needed a pair of these rotors, let me know. I may have access to another pair. Did they give you 6004 RGS?
-Keith
Yes, same boxes you showed.
I'll use my brake drum bar to turn down the outside edge with the "Made in China etc", so that is a really easy task. It might take several 1000ths off the diameter but will not reach come close to the brake pad contact surface of the face side.
(failed attempt to load up to 20 images) Ask me if you are interested, I'll try again
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I didn't have access to a press, however I had the tool for pulling the studs in. The reason they get stretched like that is two fold. 1. He-man doesn't lubricate the threads, the conical portion of the tool or the splines they are pulling in. 2. They are using an impact gun to excess. I marked the studs and the hub so when they were replaced, they went back into the same hole they were pressed from.
I DON'T recommend a brass drift to drive them in. I tried years ago with a three pound hammer. Not a lot going on there, but noise.
-Keith
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I've been trying to get pictures to load. Let me try only one this time and see what happens.
Notice the counter weights inside of the vents?
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Rich, pretty sneaky! Interesting they weighted them in the cooling slots! I would imagine balancing them in the hub would nullify balancing period.
-Keith
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Richard, I assume you mean the unusual small flat places on the outside edge of the rotor? Yes, mine do as well. Only sharp eyes would detect the issue, as I was more concerned with the "Made In China" on the edge. If someone else needed a pair of these rotors, let me know. I may have access to another pair. Did they give you 6004 RGS?
-Keith
For reference, 6004RGS can be translated to one of the following part #'s: 6004R, 18A1342 or 5406
5406 from Autozone...same rotor, different package and they have plenty in stock. It's not rocket science swapping these onto hubs in fact thats how most modern disc brake systems are today.
http://www.autozone.com/brakes-and-traction-control/brake-rotor-front/duralast-brake-rotor-front/238821_205733_4825/?checkfit=true#close
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For reference, 6004RGS can be translated to one of the following part #'s: 6004R, 18A1342 or 5406
5406 from Autozone...same rotor, different package and they have plenty in stock. It's not rocket science swapping these onto hubs in fact thats how most modern disc brake systems are today.
http://www.autozone.com/brakes-and-traction-control/brake-rotor-front/duralast-brake-rotor-front/238821_205733_4825/?checkfit=true#close
Look again at the images of Autozone's rotor and the ones recently purchased at O'Reilley and the original example(s).
Function-wise, sure it will probably work just fine but IMHO, it looks even less like original than the one-piece type that had been typically all you could find in recent years.
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AZ probably using a stock photo, here's what's in the box
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On the contrary, most modern brake systems use a hub that is studded. You don't press the studs out to remove the rotor from the hub. You simply remove the caliper, the caliper bracket and the rotor slides right off the hub. The Mustang retains the hub to the rotor by the studs being pressed in from behind, which sandwiches the rotor between the hub and the stud flanges.
-Keith
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On the contrary, most modern brake systems use a hub that is studded. You don't press the studs out to remove the rotor from the hub. You simply remove the caliper, the caliper bracket and the rotor slides right off the hub. The Mustang retains the hub to the rotor by the studs being pressed in from behind, which sandwiches the rotor between the hub and the stud flanges.
-Keith
Yup and as you said, much easier replacement.
My comment was aimed more at the 2 piece vs. 1 piece rotor topic.
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Makes more sense that way. Commas and periods can be important. :P I like the one piece unit as well, however it's not as it came from Ford, so as usual... We're back to doing it the hard way.. Press part, press back together and turn to true. JOY! 8)
Keith
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I have access to a set or two of Raybestos 2 piece rotors for 65-67. These are old stock MADE IN USA pieces - no made in China to machine off. Raybestos 6004 look identical to the C5ZZ Ford service parts pictured earlier in this thread - Century stamp and all.
Price $300 for the set plus shipping. See pictures.
Please Email me at kthornell@cox.net
I will get back to you as soon as possible.
All available sold.......... Will repost if I can come across any more, Thanks...
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