ConcoursMustang Forums

1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 => 1969 - 1970 => Topic started by: J_Speegle on July 22, 2016, 06:21:36 PM

Title: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: J_Speegle on July 22, 2016, 06:21:36 PM
Was doing some research helping out a need on another site and came up with a little info I thought I should post/share here for members

The ported vacuum switch PVS was attached to the engine at the thermostat housing on most V8 engines used in 1970 Mustangs and controlled the vacuum to the vacuum advance housing attached to the distributor

The C8AE-A version that had been used through 69 production apparently continued to be used and made up into fall of 1969. Latest C8AE-A version I've got records of is from August 1969

D0AE-A version with the Pat. Pend markings were introduced into production in late 1969 (earliest date I've found on one has been October 1969) A later version with a larger sensor/bulb, lack of the Pat Pend lettering and a reinforced upper nipple can often be found also. Since there are no dates on these I've got no evidence of when they started to be used on a production engines in Mustangs.   The latest date I've found on a Pat Pend D0AE-A version has been April 71

NOTE: In the date code stamping a letter was placed between the month and year (as shown in the dating parts article in the library) The letter is believed to indicate the supplier/maker of the part.

Sorry some of the pictures below show the valves/switches in their unrestored condition. The are examples for only markings, design characteristics and other features in this discussion

C8AE-A compared to the D0AE-A Par Pend version

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-220716170243-6032717.jpeg)



Comparing D0AE-A Pat Pend version verses the later D0AE-A switches/valves. Differences - date or lack of date - upper body marking - large verses smaller bulb/sensor

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-220716170245-60341546.jpeg)



Reinforcement added to the later D0AE-A non-dated version

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-220716170244-6033765.jpeg)

 
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: specialed on July 24, 2016, 01:27:18 PM
The 3 nipples are shorter on the doae than the c8ae version & both types of doae was used starting in 70 & I think the 2 doae versions was a vendor change. What I have found on the 2 doae types used depended on the size of the engine & which engine plant assembled the engine & when it was assembled depending on the vendor type used.  These vacuum trees usually don't get changed & if you study certain ford size engines from 68 -74 you can doc the changeover. In 75 ford made a d5ae version also.
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: J_Speegle on July 24, 2016, 04:32:08 PM
The 3 nipples are shorter on the doae than the c8ae version & both types of doae was used starting in 70 & I think the 2 doae versions was a vendor change. What I have found on the 2 doae types used depended on the size of the engine & which engine plant assembled the engine & when it was assembled depending on the vendor type used.  These vacuum trees usually don't get changed & if you study certain ford size engines from 68 -74 you can doc the changeover. In 75 ford made a d5ae version also.

Thanks Ed for your input and sharing your experiences.

Have you paid attention (I haven't) to which ones came on the more common (for restoration) 70 cars?  Boss 302- Boss 429 and the CJ

Will check my pictures to see if I can find any clue - difficult given the pictures and the small size of the details we're looking for

Its possible that with the change from the 68  in which we've documented two suppliers (one marked the switches with a "K" and one with an "H" - likely Holley) when they changed to the new design the "H" versions kept the date code pattern (since they continue to be marked with the "H" and the supplier identified by the "K" dropped the date as a way to track batches or issues.

Again thanks for the sharing   :)
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: sah62 on July 25, 2016, 09:10:43 AM
Its possible that with the change from the 68  in which we've documented two suppliers (one marked the switches with a "K" and one with an "H" - likely Holley) when they changed to the new design the "H" versions kept the date code pattern (since they continue to be marked with the "H" and the supplier identified by the "K" dropped the date as a way to track batches or issues.

For what it's worth I'm still trying to dig up any documentation at all to confirm our suspicion that the "H" and "K" were used to identify suppliers. I had thought that "K" might stand for Kelsey-Hayes, but I haven't found anything at all to suggest that K-H made emissions parts. Does anyone know any other Ford suppliers whose name starts with a "K"?
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: Bob Gaines on July 25, 2016, 05:15:41 PM
For what it's worth I'm still trying to dig up any documentation at all to confirm our suspicion that the "H" and "K" were used to identify suppliers. I had thought that "K" might stand for Kelsey-Hayes, but I haven't found anything at all to suggest that K-H made emissions parts. Does anyone know any other Ford suppliers whose name starts with a "K"?
Kem MFG CO is one, Kysor is another.
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: sah62 on July 26, 2016, 08:51:22 AM
Kem MFG CO is one, Kysor is another.

Hmm, KEM does make emissions parts: http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=6512201
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: azscj on July 26, 2016, 05:10:31 PM
Great discussion here.  I will add a few comments.

Understand that there is a focus on 1970 for these PVS, but these were actually used starting in late 1967.  I have date codes of the C8 version that show that so would seem for the 1968 model year they started using this.

The changeover date from the C8 to the D0 version seems to probably be about September 1969 as I have both versions with those date codes.

One of the original manufacturers most likely was Dole (see below).  They were making various control valves and thermostats at the time so maybe the other vendor was also manufacturing thermostats.  Could be a possibility since they are complimentary products.

The pictures I have here is of an original NOS unit I bought to see both the finish and to show who the manufacturer was at the time.  Its identical to the Ford switches we are talking about, stamped in 1970, and marked the same way.   

(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z213/azscj/IMG_0414_zpsf3o9qy5m.jpg)

(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z213/azscj/IMG_0415_zpsjdaslobj.jpg)

(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z213/azscj/IMG_0416_zpsoifwqfkk.jpg)

 
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: Bob Gaines on July 26, 2016, 05:46:18 PM
Great discussion here.  I will add a few comments.

Understand that there is a focus on 1970 for these PVS, but these were actually used starting in late 1967.  I have date codes of the C8 version that show that so would seem for the 1968 model year they started using this.

The changeover date from the C8 to the D0 version seems to probably be about September 1969 as I have both versions with those date codes.

One of the original manufacturers most likely was Dole (see below).  They were making various control valves and thermostats at the time so maybe the other vendor was also manufacturing thermostats.  Could be a possibility since they are complimentary products.

The pictures I have here is of an original NOS unit I bought to see both the finish and to show who the manufacturer was at the time.  Its identical to the Ford switches we are talking about, stamped in 1970, and marked the same way.   

(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z213/azscj/IMG_0414_zpsf3o9qy5m.jpg)

(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z213/azscj/IMG_0415_zpsjdaslobj.jpg)

(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z213/azscj/IMG_0416_zpsoifwqfkk.jpg)

 
I have never seen any marked with a "D" . Maybe others have.
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: azscj on July 26, 2016, 07:09:17 PM
I also have never seen one marked with a D and doubt you will ever see that.  If you look at the pictures I posted the valve is marked with an H that matches what we see on the valves we are talking about here.

Something else to consider..... is that the K and the H marking has nothing to do with a manufacturer identification at all.  Could be there is an internal mechanical difference between the two.  Perhaps this matches with the temp rating of the thermostat or some internal difference in the valve we dont know about.  Thats another possibility.   
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: J_Speegle on July 26, 2016, 09:28:42 PM
I also have never seen one marked with a D and doubt you will ever see that.  If you look at the pictures I posted the valve is marked with an H that matches what we see on the valves we are talking about here.

Could Dole have purchased and reboxed  switches made by another provider?

Interesting - have never seen or found one marked on the body like your example - also interesting that the Dole design (besides the DOLE rather than the D0.....) also still has the Pat Pend on the upper section  but its reversed. Seems odd to have them designed both ways

Something else to consider..... is that the K and the H marking has nothing to do with a manufacturer identification at all.  Could be there is an internal mechanical difference between the two.  Perhaps this matches with the temp rating of the thermostat or some internal difference in the valve we dont know about.  Thats another possibility.

Don't see any reference to that in Ford or other books on emissions that cover these switches nor anything in the replacement catalogs that suggest that selection should be made based on some temp/mechanical difference. Same thing with the two different D0 versions
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: azscj on July 26, 2016, 09:53:53 PM
Dole is definitely the manufacturer since they are the ones who applied for the patent and have the patent on this.  They are mentioned as Dole Valve Company in the patent.  So if you follow that line of thinking it would be hard to think that there is a second manufacturer making the same part in cooperation with Dole at that time.  You would figure Dole would want the sole rights to this switch and manufacture themselves.  Something else to think about. 

I looked in the Ford MPC as well and I see that its one single part number that covers a variety of applications - so nothing in the Ford books to show a difference. 

Hopefully we will figure it out at some point and decipher exactly what the K and the H really mean.   

Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: krelboyne on July 26, 2016, 11:05:27 PM
There may have been two different (Dole?) plants, or manufacturing facilities represented by the "K" and "H".
My MPC's list only one part number of C8AZ-12A091-A, for the type 2, distributor vacuum control valve assembly. It also lists "(DY-126)".
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: azscj on July 26, 2016, 11:20:56 PM
Thats what I saw Scott.  Two different plants is another good idea.  Thats a possibility. 
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: J_Speegle on July 27, 2016, 04:36:12 PM
There may have been two different (Dole?) plants, or manufacturing facilities represented by the "K" and "H"....

A possibility - Gabriel did that for their shocks they supplied to Ford
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: sah62 on July 28, 2016, 09:14:00 AM
A possibility - Gabriel did that for their shocks they supplied to Ford

Apparently Dole did have a manufacturing plant in a city whose name began with "H" (Hanover, IL). Still nothing on "K", though.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1968/12/17/page/59/article/assure-new-center-for-dole-valve
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: azscj on July 28, 2016, 03:41:30 PM
Interesting Scott.  If there was another facility with K then that would be a really good indicator of what these markings are.  A good possibility.
These guys still in business? 
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: Mike_B_SVT on July 29, 2016, 04:47:03 PM
Mine is dated 8-H-69.  I got this on eBay, it was installed in a 429 thermostat housing.  Not pretty, but it was cheap and filled the empty spot.  Also a great date for my Sept 19th, 1969 engine assembly date.

*I can try to get a better picture of it, if there is interest.
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: azscj on July 29, 2016, 07:30:12 PM
Mike...thats good info.  Since yours is August 69 date code that shows us the D0 version appeared even earlier than what we were thinking.  For sure there is an overlap between the two versions in the August and September 1969 time frame.

As for the K marking on these switches I heard from Bruce Klier who looked up some information and came up with the idea these could have been manufactured at the Kalamazoo facility.  Eaton bought Dole in 1963 and apparently they had a facility in Kalamazoo....so that could be our infamous K marking.   
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: J_Speegle on July 29, 2016, 08:13:16 PM
Mike...thats good info.  Since yours is August 69 date code that shows us the D0 version appeared even earlier than what we were thinking.  For sure there is an overlap between the two versions in the August and September 1969 time frame.


Yes it appears that the maker continued to make the C8 and DO at the same time. Possibly one style at one plant (the H site) while having changed to the new version/design at the other site - K site

...........  Eaton bought Dole in 1963 and apparently they had a facility in Kalamazoo....so that could be our infamous K marking.   

Not sure how that would work (just discussing things ;)  considering the example you posted of the 1970 dated DOLE version  unless they purchased and continued to use the DOLE name up to 7 years after the sale.

Good discussion and sharing
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: sah62 on March 20, 2017, 05:44:59 PM
Apparently Dole did have a manufacturing plant in a city whose name began with "H" (Hanover, IL). Still nothing on "K", though.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1968/12/17/page/59/article/assure-new-center-for-dole-valve

So I was just reading the Boss 302 engine detailing article in the April 2017 issue of Mustang Monthly. The article describes the ported vacuum switch, noting that the date codes used a "middle character representing the manufacturing plant - H for Hanover, Illinois, and K for Kalamazoo, Michigan". Does that put this question to bed?
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: J_Speegle on March 20, 2017, 05:53:37 PM
So I was just reading the Boss 302 engine detailing article in the April 2017 issue of Mustang Monthly. The article describes the ported vacuum switch, noting that the date codes used a "middle character representing the manufacturing plant - H for Hanover, Illinois, and K for Kalamazoo, Michigan". Does that put this question to bed?

Since its a single source I guess the question would be where the information came from or how it was reached.  Not trying to be picky but I think we owe it the hobby (since our sites are were people come to find out information) to do a bit of peer review and we should all expect the same of our self ;)  Except Marcus will see this comment and respond - if not I'll email him (he's busy trying to get a car finished) and ask.   If we don't do some fact checking then we're likely to lead some astray or we'll be changing back and forth which isn't a good thing either.

In the mean time I guess I need to check to see if I have any other letters stamped on any of the later ones than the H or K
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: SCJSTU on March 22, 2017, 12:33:56 AM
Great discussion here.  I will add a few comments.

Understand that there is a focus on 1970 for these PVS, but these were actually used starting in late 1967.  I have date codes of the C8 version that show that so would seem for the 1968 model year they started using this.

The changeover date from the C8 to the D0 version seems to probably be about September 1969 as I have both versions with those date codes.

One of the original manufacturers most likely was Dole (see below).  They were making various control valves and thermostats at the time so maybe the other vendor was also manufacturing thermostats.  Could be a possibility since they are complimentary products.

The pictures I have here is of an original NOS unit I bought to see both the finish and to show who the manufacturer was at the time.  Its identical to the Ford switches we are talking about, stamped in 1970, and marked the same way.   

(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z213/azscj/IMG_0414_zpsf3o9qy5m.jpg)

(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z213/azscj/IMG_0415_zpsjdaslobj.jpg)

(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z213/azscj/IMG_0416_zpsoifwqfkk.jpg)

 D


Marcus, I have a switch with the lines thru the date code like you show but think it has Ford logo....will have to dig it up at work
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: C9ZZ-16228-B on March 24, 2017, 12:50:18 AM
I'll add my 1.5 cents...

'67 had a ported vacuum switch too, that was built on top of the intake water elbow.  It was used on 289's with T/E and A/C.  Looking at the ones i have i couldn't find any date codes.

The earliest C8AE-A valve i have is 7-H-67.  The latest C8AE-A is 9-H-69.

The earliest D0AE-A valve i have is 7-H-69.  The latest D0AE-A (pat pend) is 3-H-71.

It appears there were two different molds at the Hanover plant being used simultaneously as I have both small and large letter C8AE-A and small and large letter D0AE-A.

I have two Pat Pend D0AE-A (one small letter, one large letter) with no date stampings.

I have one valve that is from the same mold as the small letter D0AE-A but is blank where the engineering number and "Ford" normally is, and has a date code of 11-79 with H-1934 beneath it (or above it, as it is stamped into the brass base upside-down.)

It would be my guess that Hanover was the supplier for San Jose, as I only have 2 Kalamazoo valves (dated 9-K-67 and 3-K-69) versus about 30 Hanover valves.

There is also a D3OE-A2A 2-port valve used in 1973 that screwed into the side of the intake water elbow, for the sake of thoroughness.
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: J_Speegle on March 24, 2017, 12:59:20 AM
I'll add my 1.5 cents...

'67 had a ported vacuum switch too, that was built on top of the intake water elbow.  It was used on 289's with T/E and A/C.  Looking at the ones i have i couldn't find any date codes.

That style has been discussed in a couple of other threads and not included in this discussion because of where its located and the title focus


It would be my guess that Hanover was the supplier for San Jose, as I only have 2 Kalamazoo valves (dated 9-K-67 and 3-K-69) versus about 30 Hanover valves.

Must report that I've found about an equal number of K and H D0 style on San Jose built cars. Lets remember that the valves were installed at the engine plant so where the engine was installed likely has nothing to do where the engines were installed at.
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: C9ZZ-16228-B on March 24, 2017, 01:22:11 AM
Must report that I've found about an equal number of K and H D0 style on San Jose built cars. Lets remember that the valves were installed at the engine plant so where the engine was installed likely has nothing to do where the engines were installed at.

Ah, good point, Jeff. 
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: azscj on March 24, 2017, 11:13:28 PM

I can pretty much guarantee that if you look at these vacuum switches you will not find them labeled any other way.  K and H.  And if we know the manufacturer now....and they had two assembly plants in these two locations seems to all fit in place. 
If anyone has same or different information just let us know.   
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: ClevelandKid on March 25, 2017, 11:23:19 AM
Not sure if it makes any difference how the vacuum lines are hooked up to the ported vacuum switch but it goes in alphabetical order from the top down. C,D,I. Carburetor, Distributer, Intake. I have a diagram that shows this  but can't seem to find it at the moment.
Title: Re: 70 Ported Vacuum Switches (PVS) Distributor Vacuum Control
Post by: J_Speegle on March 25, 2017, 06:04:45 PM
Not sure if it makes any difference how the vacuum lines are hooked up to the ported vacuum switch but it goes in alphabetical order from the top down. C,D,I. Carburetor, Distributor, Intake. I have a diagram that shows this  but can't seem to find it at the moment.


Believe it depends on the year and application. Unfortunately I don't have all the 70 versions to share - that is why there are not articles in the Library for 70-73 yet like their are for the earlier years.


As far as the other question Scott proposed at this time, for lack of a better answer and celebrating the efforts that have taken place I'm fine with the manufacturing plant identifier being represented by the middle character in the stamping until and if something better comes along ;)  And have updated the date coding article in the Library to reflect this new information.  Just have to put the newest version and reset the links.

So do we know if there was two suppliers - each with their different plant or one supplier with two plants?  I would guess its the two supplier since that would follow Fords normal practices through the years.