ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Drivetrain => Topic started by: amishtechnology on December 10, 2016, 09:40:38 PM
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I have a Carter fuel pump. Casting 3974-S. Date code 2LSA. Button top. No canister.
The MustangTek web site shows images (http://www.mustangtek.com/fuelpump/M3974.html) but has a question mark for original application.
Any knowledge about where these particular castings were originally used?
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The change over to the CARTER casting was very late 1967 so for the second half of 68 production period based on a couple of NOS ones found that had the box stenciled dated not the date the box was made ;).
It and the CARburaTER casting style continued also for a while to be used for non high performance, 6 cylinders and small blocks also
Looks like your example is possible a 1972 produced one.
Will look through the books but there are allot of different numbers through the years used though the start of the number suggests that its first usage/application was possible in 1965
Follow up - Looked through my stuff and could not find anything. May be for a non Ford product since Carter made pumps for other cars also. Too bad the link didn't include the stocking number. Often they also included (if they fit Fords products) would have the Ford part number also stamped on the end of the box.
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Thanks Jeff. I mistyped the date code. Should read 2L5A. Made me wonder if that was 2 November of 1965.
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I have a Carter fuel pump. Casting 3974-S. Date code 2LSA. Button top. No canister.
The MustangTek web site shows images (http://www.mustangtek.com/fuelpump/M3974.html) but has a question mark for original application.
Any knowledge about where these particular castings were originally used?
Some how they got pictures I used on a ebay ad because I recognize the part,box and the workout mat I laid it on. Disregarding the flange number the 3/8 inlet identify it for use starting from 1968 production .The pump arm indicatesit is for a small block 289,302 or 351W.The button top was a common assemblyline style used 65-70 Mustang. All the small block fuelpumps move the same amount of fuel and use the same internal components. A later date code on yours 72? Would mean a later service part. FYI date coded parts are nice to have but not necessary for all but the strictest concours classes.
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This is an odd fuel pump. I have one of these but it only fits 1 specific application. 1965 Ford large car(galaxie) 289 2V w/o integral filter. I seem to remember something about frame rail clearance, you will notice that the pump is actually about 1 inch shorter than other 66+ style fuel pumps. To my knowledge this is the only Carter crimp together pump used in 65 w/o an integral filter.
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If you look closely at the pics from mustangtek their pump has a 5/16 inlet not a 3/8. The pic also shows the CARTER casting which means this was a service replacement.
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My old Carter fuel pump catalog shows the Ford part number as C5AE-9350-D
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My version has the CARbureTER logo.
How are the dates decoded for these pumps?
And what do I look at re the lever for a clue about it being for a small block vs big block?
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My pump as well has CARbureTER casting. Big question now is what do you do with it? Maybe use it on a 66 or 67 with p/s, would be hard to pick out the difference there.
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If you look closely at the pics from mustangtek their pump has a 5/16 inlet not a 3/8. The pic also shows the CARTER casting which means this was a service replacement.
I have to disagree . You must not have looked too closely yourself because the inlet is 3/8 and not 5/16. I know because it was my pump in the picture as I stated ;) and because I know the difference just by looking at the inlet from the pictures. Once you compare enough pump cores trying to weed out the 3/8 from the 5/16 to have rebuilt they obviously look different. You are mis informed on the Carter marking also . You will find that the " made in USA" fuelpumps are typically marked Carter and the "made in Canada" fuel pumps are typically marked CAR bure TER . The Carter marked "made in USA" small block pumps started to be used predominately on Mustangs starting typically in 1968. It just so happens through attrition that the Carter marked pumps are the only ones in service stock now. Not so much in the late 60's when both were prevalent. Regardless of the flange number the small block pumps move the same amount of fuel . You can verify with Fred who rebuilds the button top pumps for all of us that they all use the same SB arm,internal spring and diaphragm. The same internals = the same output. The pump in the mustangtek picture regardless of flange number or corresponding application works on any year Mustang 66-70 smalblock but is most correct on 68 and up given the 3/8 inlet.
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Cleaning it up a bit more and under brighter lights, it appears the date code may read 22L6A. And adjacent to the CARbureTER mark it says "MADE IN U.S.A." FWIW.
I'm sorry I am not able to post a pic of my pump, but I am grateful for the discussion and suggestions.
I plan to ask Fred for his POV as you suggested, Bob.
Thanks again, all.
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Date codes for CARTER fuel pumps 2L5A
2 day
L month (A Jan and so on)
5 last year or decade (5 1965, 1975 so on)
A most likely shift at Carter plant
Pic is of 3 most popular Carter fuel pump arms for Ford engines you will likely find. Top FE(390,427,428) middle 289 302 351w, bottom 292 312
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My old Carter fuel pump catalog shows the Ford part number as C5AE-9350-D
I went back in my parts room and low and behold I still have the Carter box from the picture. Printed on the side of the box is printed M3974 for FORD C5AZ-9350-A . FYI these Carter boxed pumps were sold at the auto parts store which could explain some inconsistencies. I believe Ford service pumps were in box's with Ford AUTOLITE trademarks.
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I also have been rebuilding these pumps for over 15 years. Fred does them as well but from what he has told me he in in no way involved in the actual rebuilding of the internals, just refinishing the plating, sandblasting and phosphating the arms, unless something has changed another company he knows of sources the new parts and does the disassembly, internal rebuilding , and reassembly. I agree Bob the the internals are all the same and this pump will fit and function on any 289/302, if you change the arm it will work on a 390 or even 460. But the pump in the mustangtek pic looks to me as a 5/16 inlet. I currently have around 75 button top fuel pumps and the vast majority of them cast CARbureTER say made in USA, but I do have a few cast made in Canada, but I cannot remember ever seeing a Canada pump cast Carter but I am sure they are out there. I can only comment on what I have seen in the 400-500 or so I have redone, Fred would most likely have seen a much larger number.
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I have a Carter fuel pump. Casting 3974-S. Date code 2LSA. Button top. No canister.
The MustangTek web site shows images (http://www.mustangtek.com/fuelpump/M3974.html) but has a question mark for original application.
Any knowledge about where these particular castings were originally used?
Your initial post asked when the casting was used . I now get a sense that you are trying to determine a appropriate historical correct pump for your car. It would be best in the future to include that information for the most precise answer. I remember you asking about a sender for a 66 so assume that is what you are working on. The button top CAR bure TER marked pump with the 5/16 inlet is what you are looking for . These are the characteristics that are looked for in concours judging . Date codes and flange numbers are secondary because they are irreverent in all but the most strict concours class .It sounds like you have a appropriate pump from your description. If you need a pump restored Fred Ballard is who does them for me.
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I found my pump and it is a service replacement in a Carter box just like i the pics from mustangtek. I was wrong my pump is cast CARTER just as the pic, Bob is correct about the Ford part number. Ford # really is C5AZ-9350-A according to the carter box, don't know why my fuel pump catalog shows wrong info.
Bob, I have never heard of the association between CARbureTER/CARTER castings and there country of origin. This is very interesting, about how many pumps have you looked at before you saw this trend in casting to country?
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I also have been rebuilding these pumps for over 15 years. Fred does them as well but from what he has told me he in in no way involved in the actual rebuilding of the internals, just refinishing the plating, sandblasting and phosphating the arms, unless something has changed another company he knows of sources the new parts and does the disassembly, internal rebuilding , and reassembly. I agree Bob the the internals are all the same and this pump will fit and function on any 289/302, if you change the arm it will work on a 390 or even 460. But the pump in the mustangtek pic looks to me as a 5/16 inlet. I currently have around 75 button top fuel pumps and the vast majority of them cast CARbureTER say made in USA, but I do have a few cast made in Canada, but I cannot remember ever seeing a Canada pump cast Carter but I am sure they are out there. I can only comment on what I have seen in the 400-500 or so I have redone, Fred would most likely have seen a much larger number.
I believe Fred told me if I remember correctly that he has the pump bodies uncrimped by the company and does the cleanup of the diecast and re Zinc Dichromate of the sheetmetal halfs on his end before taking the separated parts back for re assembly at the company he uses for that. I have a very high confidence level that the pump in the mustang tek pictures is in fact 3/8 for all of the reasons I mentioned. I assumed it was some kind of generic variant. The 3/8 inlet was why I had no use for it . I have enough Carter marked 3/8 pumps for use with 302/351 engines . They are not very popular . I understand and agree on the USA vs Canada which is why I was very careful to use the word "typically" to cover that very small percentage that is otherwise ;). I am glad to hear others that are sticking with rebuilding the crimp together pumps. Best of luck with your endeavor.
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I found my pump and it is a service replacement in a Carter box just like i the pics from mustangtek. I was wrong my pump is cast CARTER just as the pic, Bob is correct about the Ford part number. Ford # really is C5AZ-9350-A according to the carter box, don't know why my fuel pump catalog shows wrong info.
Bob, I have never heard of the association between CARbureTER/CARTER castings and there country of origin. This is very interesting, about how many pumps have you looked at before you saw this trend in casting to country?
I have no idea but not near 400-500. If I were to guess more like 200. I just started to see a pattern . A blind squirrel finds a nut yada yada. ;D
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I do the entire fuel pump rebuild myself, with the exception of the yellow dichromate plate for the bottom. I havbe found I can control the quality of the end product better. Fred told me early on the issues he had with the rebuilder carelessly tearing apart the pump and recrimping, that the first bunch looked awful. Pics of a pump I did a while ago. I have tried to minumize the opening of the crimp so as to not stretch and distort everything.
I really don't have a lot of spare time to do much of this anymore as it is very labor intensive to do everything by hand.
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Thanks, Bob. I'm sure I can use this pump for one of my builds or give it to a friend, but if it's special I don't want to just slap it on some random car. I'd rather give it a proper home in that case. That's why I didn't mention any of my cars in this post -- I was just generally puzzled about this pump and knew I'd get some robust ideas here about how it might have been used originally.
Since you mentioned it: The '66 project I discussed in another post the other day (good memory, by the way!) is a k-code so I'm guessing this pump isn't correct in that case?
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Looks like very nice work 429Scott. Cool to see.
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I do the entire fuel pump rebuild myself, with the exception of the yellow dichromate plate for the bottom. I havbe found I can control the quality of the end product better. Fred told me early on the issues he had with the rebuilder carelessly tearing apart the pump and recrimping, that the first bunch looked awful. Pics of a pump I did a while ago. I have tried to minumize the opening of the crimp so as to not stretch and distort everything.
I really don't have a lot of spare time to do much of this anymore as it is very labor intensive to do everything by hand.
The work on the crimps looks extremly good. Please take this in the positive way it is meant-don't do anymore carter 5/16 pumps given the labor involved unless you have a special reason. The CAR bure TER 5/16 versions are the ones that people are looking for . That CAR bure TER style is the typical assemblyline marking.
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Thank you for the compliments! I understand what you mean about how scarce the 5/16 inlet bottoms are. I made these pumps as an economy driver pump for a few friends, this pump does not have a 100% correct integral filter bottom. Believe it or not but this pump is made with brand new 6 cyl bottoms recrimped onto a button top casting, they came out pretty good and I did not have to replate original 65 bottoms!
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Thanks, Bob. I'm sure I can use this pump for one of my builds or give it to a friend, but if it's special I don't want to just slap it on some random car. I'd rather give it a proper home in that case. That's why I didn't mention any of my cars in this post -- I was just generally puzzled about this pump and knew I'd get some robust ideas here about how it might have been used originally.
Since you mentioned it: The '66 project I discussed in another post the other day (good memory, by the way!) is a k-code so I'm guessing this pump isn't correct in that case?
Yes and No. As mention before the button top ,CAR bure TER marked ,5/16 inlet is the most important aspect. The 66 hipo pump had the flange number 4201 in 1/8 numbers. the hipo pump had a extra spring that was supposed to help with keeping the pump arm stable at 6,000 rpm + operation. The problem was that it was not uncommon to find that extra spring in the bottom of the oil pan. Not a good thing.Once installed extra spring or not it is impossible to tell or see. The small flange numbers are very hard to distinguish once the pump is mounted and as mentioned before is not something that is looked for in concours judging unless in the hardest class where no reproduction parts and everything has to be date correct. The 4201 hipo pump once restored typically sells for 1200-2200.00 if you can even find one to buy. Add to that trying to find one that is date code relevant to your build. To me if you are going to all that trouble for the genuine pump it better be dated correct too or not do it . But that is just me. So armed with that information hopefully you can make a decision that is best for your situation. You can run with a concours correct, look a like pump (button top,CAR bure TER ,5/16) or the same thing with the extra spring ,flange number and date. Oh and lest we not forget cost.
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Thank you for the compliments! I understand what you mean about how scarce the 5/16 inlet bottoms are. I made these pumps as an economy driver pump for a few friends, this pump does not have a 100% correct integral filter bottom. Believe it or not but this pump is made with brand new 6 cyl bottoms recrimped onto a button top casting, they came out pretty good and I did not have to replate original 65 bottoms!
First time for me. I picked up some NOS 6cyl ones cheap at the recent Columbus swap meet for just that reason. I have some ready to go to Fred as substitutes for beat up 289 ones.
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Good thinkin! The 6 cyl bottoms work like a charm! Internally the valves are the same but since the pull rod tower on the 6 cyl top is shorter you will need to use the longer V8 diaphragm assembly. Unless you look real hard the bottoms look correct once installed on the engine.
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amishtechnology - Sorry for the initial date screw up knew it (got it right in the date coding article in the Library ::) but wrote it incorrectly :-[. And the link you posted got the thread way off and down a rabbit hole with the box and casting details that didn't relate to your question.
Scott - nice job especially the crimping. Have you converted big block to small block crimp style. Years ago I found three cases of the Cater zip boxes one for each engine sizes mix of CARburaTer and CARTER pumps of course CARburaTER small blocks were the quick sellers but have thought a few times about converting some of the big block ones with a change of the arm. Just asking since we seem to have figured out the OPs pump issue ;)
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Jeff,
Yes have converted fe pumps with 289 pump arms. If you have extra 289 pump arms its not that difficult to do, the pump arm style dictates where the spring goes (under arm or under button)
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I just procured a rebuildable 4193S button top CARbureTER 5/16 (O.D.) fuel line -- still attached -- from the local Old Car pick 'n pull and need to verify that it will work as a concours substitute for my 67 K motor. It was really, really cheap.
Is this a good candidate for my car considering Fred's cost to rebuild?
I had to use a loupe to even see the very faint numbers.
Are the 4193S CARTERs worth anything, as I got one of those too?
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I just procured a rebuildable 4193S button top CARbureTER 5/16 (O.D.) fuel line -- still attached -- from the local Old Car pick 'n pull and need to verify that it will work as a concours substitute for my 67 K motor. It was really, really cheap..............
One on the right is what your looking for if all the measurements match up not going to be really - really cheap by the time you get done with the rebulding and all but will be cheaper than a real one in most cases.
The other would likely be worth it if you needed it but as one to invest in and have rebuilt the market will narrow and you would have to find a 68 small block owner
Since you didn't mention it - and for others viewing this the numbers you posted in the picture would be the date code of the pump
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Thanks Jeff!
I've given up on real 67 HiPo pumps since I'm not doing Thoroughbred (yet) and a correct date coded pump would be thousands.
Just finding ANY CARbureTER button tops is difficult and most of the "original" NOS examples I've seen online are CARTERs and getting into the 5-600 plus territory.
I can do this one for less than half of that ...
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I just procured a rebuildable 4193S button top CARbureTER 5/16 (O.D.) fuel line -- still attached -- from the local Old Car pick 'n pull and need to verify that it will work as a concours substitute for my 67 K motor. It was really, really cheap.
Is this a good candidate for my car considering Fred's cost to rebuild?
I had to use a loupe to even see the very faint numbers.
Are the 4193S CARTERs worth anything, as I got one of those too?
The one on the right marked CAR bure TER and 5 /16 nipple is the one you want. It will have the look you want once restored. The other isn't worth messing with except for parts. A 68 buyer wouldn't want it because it is 5/16 instead of the correct for 68 3/8 inlet. I don't if Fred would give you credit on it or not . If he does don't expect much.
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Excellent. I'll send it in tomorrow.
Thanks to both of you.
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Thanks Jeff!
I've given up on real 67 HiPo pumps since I'm not doing Thoroughbred (yet) and a correct date coded pump would be thousands.
The engineering number and date can be restamped but that's another guy, cost and process. The alteration can often leave some tell tale clues to the change depending on the job that time and how close you look