ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1967 Mustang => Topic started by: sah62 on February 27, 2017, 07:58:35 PM
-
Has anyone seen a proportioning valve that looks like this used on 1967 Mustangs assembled prior to (approximately) February 1967? If so, I'm trying to learn if it is marked with an engineering number and if it was used on any other vehicles.
-
I have never seen a proportion valve like that used on any 67. The early 67s proportion valve was located in the back of the car just ahead of the flex hose.
Marty
-
Scott,
I have not seen that on any original cars. I've only seen cylindrical types - before, during, and after 1967.
I can say that in 1980 when my Dec 66 SJ Mustang developed a leak in the typical cylindrical 2B091-B version, I went to the Ford dealer to by one, and one that externally looks the same as the one you pictured. In the box was a new shorty brake line.
I just rebuild my original (glad I saved it) with a kit I bought from you last week. I still have the 1980 version out in the garage and will add pictures later on.
By the way having a heck of a time getting the piston out of the distribution block (the one that drives the low level sensor). The grease gun will be next.
John
-
Here are the pictures. Still have the box from 1980
-
Here is one installed on a car from the 114-115xxx period
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-270217212325-67952141.jpeg)
-
Have seen that one on 1968 and 1969's.
-
Here is one installed on a car from the 114-115xxx period
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-270217212325-67952141.jpeg)
So Jeff, this type did come on some 67 cars ?
-
So Jeff, this type did come on some 67 cars ?
That is what that picture is of. Not sure if it was all early or certain application at this point
-
That is what that picture is of. Not sure if it was all early or certain application at this point
Do you know if power drum or disc brake?
-
How do we know it was original to the car and not a replacement such as in John's case?
-
Scott,
I have not seen that on any original cars. I've only seen cylindrical types - before, during, and after 1967.
I can say that in 1980 when my Dec 66 SJ Mustang developed a leak in the typical cylindrical 2B091-B version, I went to the Ford dealer to by one, and one that externally looks the same as the one you pictured. In the box was a new shorty brake line.
I just rebuild my original (glad I saved it) with a kit I bought from you last week. I still have the 1980 version out in the garage and will add pictures later on.
By the way having a heck of a time getting the piston out of the distribution block (the one that drives the low level sensor). The grease gun will be next.
John
Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. I'm pretty sure this is a service part that replaced the cylindrical version at some point. I need to do some more research to see if I can find the engineering number(s) associated with the C7OZ-2B091-B service part number.
John, if you need some help with the grease gun, read this: https://www.musclecarresearch.com/grease-gun-pressure
-
I use a propane torch and heat the block pretty hot. The old O ring and oil get very soft, then I hit it against a block of wood and the piston comes right out.
Marty
-
Check 67 shop manual section 2 part 2-2 fig. 20 - Brake system Comet Fairlane Falcon. Shows the valve labeled as disc brake alternate only.
I once owned a 67 GTA that had one of these plumbed into the normal rear position brake line - worked just fine as far as I could tell.
-
Do you know if power drum or disc brake?
Unfortunately no front spindles on that example - though the cap on the master cylinder suggest disc. So really confusing since we have seen hundreds if not more power disc cars from the early part of the year without this item
Did look up the part number in a 67 MPC and its listed - application Fairlanes and Mustangs - w/power brake booster . No additional information no application date. The base number showed another (approx) 10 other parts using that base number for different applications
Another angle of the same part and car
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-280217173620-68012335.jpeg)
-
It turns out that there are three different engineering numbers associated with the C7OZ-2B091-B service part number:
- C7OA-2B091-A (believed to be the 1967 cylindrical version)
- C7OA-2B091-C (believed to be the 1968 cylindrical version)
- C9OA-2B091-A (believed to be the 1969 cylindrical version)
I also see a reference to a C7OA-2B091-B engineering number, but I don't have anything to confirm seeing that number stamped on any cylindrical valves. Has anyone seen it "live"?
Still no clues to an engineering number for this replacement part, though.
-
Do you know if power drum or disc brake?
IMHO it would have to be a disc car because the is no reason for a proportion valve on a power drum brake car, the pressure is the same front and back.
-
IMHO it would have to be a disc car because the is no reason for a proportion valve on a power drum brake car, the pressure is the same front and back.
I was trying to understand a reason for use . Given that the 67 ,68 ,and 69/70 use virtually the same proportioning valve I am at a loss to understand why it looks so different. Most other Ford brass assemblys like brake lines,typical proportioning valves ,distribution blocks etc. are metal stamped with engineering number in the brass . Maybe after market?
-
...and the mystery deepens. I have personally seen the C9OA-2B091-A engineering number on a cylindrical valve. Take a look at the attached picture and help me understand how the same engineering number might appear on a very different part!
Bob, it may look different as a function of Ford trying to reduce the number of service parts that could be used across car lines. The full-sized A-line cars (Galaxie etc.) used a proportioning valve that looks a lot like this one. Maybe Ford decided to make this part the service part for F-line cars, too.
-
...and the mystery deepens. I have personally seen the C9OA-2B091-A engineering number on a cylindrical valve. Take a look at the attached picture and help me understand how the same engineering number might appear on a very different part!
Bob, it may look different as a function of Ford trying to reduce the number of service parts that could be used across car lines. The full-sized A-line cars (Galaxie etc.) used a proportioning valve that looks a lot like this one. Maybe Ford decided to make this part the service part for F-line cars, too.
That my be it. It wouldn't be the first time Ford did that, make another part that fits a variety of applications that is.
-
OK, one thing is for sure - with a C9 engineering number this isn't a part designed for use during the 1967 model year.
-
........... function of Ford trying to reduce the number of service parts that could be used across car lines. The full-sized A-line cars (Galaxie etc.) used a proportioning valve that looks a lot like this one. Maybe Ford decided to make this part the service part for F-line cars, too.
But that may not apply to the 67 part.
As for the C9 why wouldn't you just use the cylinder style part already in production as the service piece (smaller item that would fit in more spots) unless it was cheaper to make this odd ball shaped one.
Think we need to find some more bridges to reach the answer
-
Cheaper may be the answer, Jeff. The valves that appeared during the 1970 model year used the same basic internal parts as this block-shaped valve. It could be that this is what the manufacturers were moving to.
Keeping this on-topic to '67s, though: if folks could confirm the engineering numbers seen on cylindrical valves (pics would be nice, too) I'd greatly appreciate it.
-
There is a original with the part number.
Perhaps this design was developed because it was installed in the back of the car inline. The shape may not have been as important when it was moved under the distribution block. Just a possibility.
-
Thanks, that's a C7OA-C. Here's a cylindrical C9OA-A. Does anyone have a picture of a C7OA-A or C7OA-B?
-
Just a thought
If this odd shaped one was meant to be a replacement why is it designed and installed at the front (in the engine compartment) and what takes the place of the one in the rear , since there is no additional fittings or item to take up the gap
Surely if there is a problem with the original factory (if that is what is going on) the idea was not to leave it in place once it was replaced by the other
-
I saw a huge clue that it can be a service replacement, in the photo of the instruction sheet for the NOS valve:
This valve is shaped different than valve it replaces ..... and requires the new included brake lines for Fairlane / Montego, Falcon / Comet.
1967- 1969 Mustang / Cougar - Form existing brake lines to accommodate new valve.
I have 3 examples of what I call the 'Texas' shaped control valve. Mine all show: SURF 315-7 or (166-7, 088-5) X-2B328-BB. My guess is that the 315-7 is the Julian Date followed by the year? 1967 and 1975?
We mostly have examples of the C7OA-2B091-C and C9OA-2B091-A. No other casting numbers found. IMHO, I believe that the date code is year,month,day.
For C7OA-2B091-C, I found BA20,BE26,BK09,BL29,CA18,CA23,CA30,CB06,CG02,CG29,CK16.
For C9OA-2B091-A, I found JC21,JE08.
-
I saw a huge clue that it can be a service replacement, in the photo of the instruction sheet for the NOS valve:
This valve is shaped different than valve it replaces ..... and requires the new included brake lines for Fairlane / Montego, Falcon / Comet.
1967- 1969 Mustang / Cougar - Form existing brake lines to accommodate new valve.
Yes would think that you found the smoking gun. Still I have wonder how they addressed the gap (if you removed the factory valve) at the rear
I have 3 examples of what I call the 'Texas' shaped control valve. ...........
Very descriptive - like it
-
...and the mystery deepens. I have personally seen the C9OA-2B091-A engineering number on a cylindrical valve. Take a look at the attached picture and help me understand how the same engineering number might appear on a very different part!
Bob, it may look different as a function of Ford trying to reduce the number of service parts that could be used across car lines. The full-sized A-line cars (Galaxie etc.) used a proportioning valve that looks a lot like this one. Maybe Ford decided to make this part the service part for F-line cars, too.
Adding some new information: someone was kind enough to share an image of a replacement-style NOS C7OZ-2B091-B with yet another engineering number stamped on the body. X-2B328-BB; see the attached image.
-
Scott I bought one like that NOS on eBay in 2003. It was a service replacement part sold in the 1970’s. The kit came with a short hard line to adapt it in place of the cylindrical part which was original to my very early 1967 Cougar.
Has anyone seen a proportioning valve that looks like this used on 1967 Mustangs assembled prior to (approximately) February 1967? If so, I'm trying to learn if it is marked with an engineering number and if it was used on any other vehicles.
-
I have a NOS one in the box.
I'll take some photos and post tomorrow.
-
This is one of the -B valves.
-
Yep, same kit I bought. I remembered only one line but maybe there were two needed. In any case it fit and worked fine. Obviously not concours correct!
This is one of the -B valves.
-
Yep, same kit I bought. I remembered only one line but maybe there were two needed. In any case it fit and worked fine. Obviously not concours correct!
This is a prime example of the perils of NOS parts. You get what Ford service used to keep a customer's car running, not always what the factory originally used. Remember, Ford was not building concourse grade cars.
Years back, a 67 "A" code Fastback I was helping a friend to restore, had his power brake booster rebuilt. On the shelf in back of the order desk were a couple of the correct cylinder style proportioning valves (for reference, Ford engineering part number C7OA-2B91-C, service part number C7OZ-2B091-B).
You might give them a call:
Power Brake Exchange
260 Phelan Ave
San Jose, Ca, 95112
408 292-1305
Jim
-
Although my '67 does not have disc brakes, I found this thread intriguing, and decided to do a little digging on my own. Like Jeff, I started with my 1967 only, Parts and Accessories Catalog (dated January 1967). Like Jeff, I saw that the valve had the Part Number of C7OZ-2B091-B. This raised a "red flag" to me, as no other application is shown with a C7OZ-2B091-A Part Number. This would then imply that a C7OZ-2B091-A must have preceded the "-B". My next "stop" was the 1967 Chassis Assembly Manual to see what it shows. That proved a waste of time ; I don't know about the rest of you, but mine is of such a poor quality that one can't read numbers, and some appear to be missing completely. It does appear to show the cylindrical valve, but the arrow going to it (which would go to the Engineering Number), goes to open space. The sheet is undated, with no "Revision Date(s) shown, so it may be the original "first" design ?
I then went to the 1960-68 MPC. I started with the Illustrations Section, which was more revealing than the Assembly Manual had been. I have attached copies of two page from the Illustrations Section; first is the page for 1967 Mustang Brake System, and second is for 1967 Fairlane and Falcon Brake System. Remember that the Fairlane and Mustang are both noted in the 1967 Only MPC as using Part Number.C7OZ-2B091-B. Note that the last Revision (at least through April of 1968) to the Mustang page (page 25) is August of 1967. Yet, the last Revision to the Fairlane-Falcon page is October 1967. While the Mustang page shows only the cylindrical valve, the Fairlane-Falcon page (page 24) shows the cylindrical valve and the "Alternate" "Block-type" valve. Possibly page 25 should have been Revised in October also ?
Now, on to the 1960-68 Text Section. Here is where there is at least a little light shed on this matter. In the text section, the Part Number for the Valve is =once again shown as
C7OZ-2B091-B (page 25, dated August 1967) ; however, there is a "Ø" symbol noted next to it. Checking the "General information Section of the Text, gives the following description ; "Ø Indicates changes and additions such as change in model application, dimension, etc.". This is a pretty good indication that another part (possibly C7OZ-2B091-A) preceded the "-B" ?
On to the OSI Catalogs. Sure enough, in the July 1967 OSI, it shows that the C7OZ-2B091-A is "NR" (not replaced). It is shown as NR as opposed to "r/b" (Replaced By) since the C7OZ-2B091-B is not a "direct" replacement.
One more "check" I decided to make ; check my May 1967 Ford List Price Book. Interesting here is that Part Number C7OZ-2B091-A is listed (for $46.05) but the "-B" is not yet listed. Unfortunately, that is the latest Price Book I have.
One final look was at the 1965-72 MPC. In the Text Section, the applications are still shown for Fairlanes, Falcons and Mustangs, but now the year applications are shown as "67/69". In the Illustrations Section, it appears that they just used the same ones as in the 1960-68 MPC, with the 1967/68 Mustang one showing the cylindrical valve back by the rear end. However, on the Illustration for the 1969/70 Mustang, it shows the cylindrical valve at the front, on the rear inner fender apron, hooked into the Brake Pressure Differential Valve.
One thing to remember ; all of the above is based on Service Parts, not Factory instaslled parts. While early issues of Service Parts may be the same, such is not guaranteed. As for time difference, my guess would be that when Ford decided to make the change from "-A" to "-B", their intent would have been at the Plants, to use up the "-A's" that they had, before moving to the "-B's". Thus, the Plants' changes could be at different times from when the Service Parts were available.
There you go ; the results of my "digging". Confusion supplied at no extra cost.
Bob
-
Although my '67 does not have disc brakes, I found this thread intriguing, and decided to do a little digging on my own. Like Jeff, I started with my 1967 only, Parts and Accessories Catalog (dated January 1967). Like Jeff, I saw that the valve had the Part Number of C7OZ-2B091-B. This raised a "red flag" to me, as no other application is shown with a C7OZ-2B091-A Part Number. This would then imply that a C7OZ-2B091-A must have preceded the "-B". My next "stop" was the 1967 Chassis Assembly Manual to see what it shows. That proved a waste of time ; I don't know about the rest of you, but mine is of such a poor quality that one can't read numbers, and some appear to be missing completely. It does appear to show the cylindrical valve, but the arrow going to it (which would go to the Engineering Number), goes to open space. The sheet is undated, with no "Revision Date(s) shown, so it may be the original "first" design ?
I then went to the 1960-68 MPC. I started with the Illustrations Section, which was more revealing than the Assembly Manual had been. I have attached copies of two page from the Illustrations Section; first is the page for 1967 Mustang Brake System, and second is for 1967 Fairlane and Falcon Brake System. Remember that the Fairlane and Mustang are both noted in the 1967 Only MPC as using Part Number.C7OZ-2B091-B. Note that the last Revision (at least through April of 1968) to the Mustang page (page 25) is August of 1967. Yet, the last Revision to the Fairlane-Falcon page is October 1967. While the Mustang page shows only the cylindrical valve, the Fairlane-Falcon page (page 24) shows the cylindrical valve and the "Alternate" "Block-type" valve. Possibly page 25 should have been Revised in October also ?
Now, on to the 1960-68 Text Section. Here is where there is at least a little light shed on this matter. In the text section, the Part Number for the Valve is =once again shown as
C7OZ-2B091-B (page 25, dated August 1967) ; however, there is a "Ø" symbol noted next to it. Checking the "General information Section of the Text, gives the following description ; "Ø Indicates changes and additions such as change in model application, dimension, etc.". This is a pretty good indication that another part (possibly C7OZ-2B091-A) preceded the "-B" ?
On to the OSI Catalogs. Sure enough, in the July 1967 OSI, it shows that the C7OZ-2B091-A is "NR" (not replaced). It is shown as NR as opposed to "r/b" (Replaced By) since the C7OZ-2B091-B is not a "direct" replacement.
One more "check" I decided to make ; check my May 1967 Ford List Price Book. Interesting here is that Part Number C7OZ-2B091-A is listed (for $46.95) but the "-B" is not yet listed. Unfortunately, that is the latest Price Book I have.
One final look was at the 1965-72 MPC. In the Text Section, the applications are still shown for Fairlanes, Falcons and Mustangs, but now the year applications are shown as "67/69". In the Illustrations Section, it appears that they just used the same ones as in the 1960-68 MPC, with the 1967/68 Mustang one showing the cylindrical valve back by the rear end. However, on the Illustration for the 1969/70 Mustang, it shows the cylindrical valve at the front, on the rear inner fender apron, hooked into the Brake Pressure Differential Valve.
One thing to remember ; all of the above is based on Service Parts, not Factory instaslled parts. While early issues of Service Parts may be the same, such is not guaranteed. As for time difference, my guess would be that when Ford decided to make the change from "-A" to "-B", their intent would have been at the Plants, to use up the "-A's" that they had, before moving to the "-B's". Thus, the Plants' changes could be at different times from when the Service Parts were available.
There you go ; the results of my "digging". Confusion supplied at no extra cost.
Bob
FYI the cylinder on the 69/70 is the brake proportioning valve although similar in appearance to the 67/68 one it has a C9 engineering number stamped on it. It is plumbed next to the distribution block. I believe what we are calling a proportiong valve is the same as Brake Pressure Differential Valve.
-
I saw that the valve had the Part Number of C7OZ-2B091-B. This raised a "red flag" to me, as no other application is shown with a C7OZ-2B091-A Part Number. This would then imply that a C7OZ-2B091-A must have preceded the "-B".
Bob,
The Ford part numbering system changed dash numbers, in this case the -A and the -B you referenced, when a design change was made OR when a different supplier made the identical part. Without the backup documentation, you would need sample parts.
My next "stop" was the 1967 Chassis Assembly Manual to see what it shows. That proved a waste of time; I don't know about the rest of you, but mine is of such a poor quality that one can't read numbers, and some appear to be missing completely.
Don't blame the messenger. Osborn Reproductions did the best the could with what Ford provided.
All the Mustang Chassis Assembly Manuals did not include the full Ford assembly line part number in all applications, and the drawings were sloppy as well. The lack of a full part number had to have been a decision by Ford purchasing and the assembly line people. They most likely used a printout, computers in industry were just coming into being.
Jim
-
See what I meant about confusion ? What we commonly call the "Proportioning Valve" is designated by Ford as "Front Disc Brake Pressure Control Valve" and what we commonly call the "Distribution Block" is designated by Ford as the "Brake Pressure Differential Valve".
As far as the "C9", I'll be the first to say that I don't know much about 1969 details. I was just passing on what is shown in the 1965-72 MPC. Obviously they either made a mistake noting the 69 as the same part number, or by 1975, the C9 was "NR" and replaced by the C7.
Bob
-
C7 and C9 brake proportioning valves appear identical.
-
Those are not original to any 67. The residual valve should be under the floor at the rear of the vehicle. It simply holds 2LB of fluid pressure. We had this discussion elsewhere and It was tested to do exactly as I stated. The distribution block on a '67 vehicle also does NOT function as a proportioning valve. It is a safety valve that slides to whichever side loses pressure as to keep fluid in the system. A shuttle valve would be more accurate. That was an over the counter replacement for the original residual value. The valves were moved to the LH apron next to the master starting in 1968.
-Keith
-
The valves were moved to the LH apron next to the master starting in 1968.
I believe the valve was a running change in the April-May time period of 1967, at least in San Jose. I assisted a friend restore a May 67 Fastback about 10-12 years ago and that was what we found.
Jim
-
+1 not a hard stop change over at the end of the model year.
-
I respectfully disagree that the 68 style of routing the proportioning valve was used at any time in 67 production. I have seen a number of other late production June builds that were as typical mounted in back which is the basis for my opinion. I think it is more likely that if a 68 style was found on a late 67 that it was because a PO had replaced it . Different distribution block,different brake lines , different brake warning switch and corresponding wiring harness plug are some other issues that would also need to be addressed besides the forward placement of proportioning valve if a change was made in late production. I think this substantial change took place job 1 for the 68 production year until substantial evidence suggests otherwise.
-
Bob,
Look up NPD stock number 2265-25, which is listed for "67 - Very late, disc, w/front mounted proportioning valve -39.95". Also avaiable in stainless. They convinced me.
Jim
-
Using NPD as the sole source for something like this is somewhat risky. I'll go back and look through my photos (a fraction of what Jeff has though) to see if there is any additional evidence one way or the other.
-
We had a discussion about this exact subject on the Cougar website recently. No one had seen any evidence of a '67 with the '68 style proportioning valve set up. Even the Master Parts catalog has zero evidence of anything being different in the late '67 model year. If anything had changed on the line it would normally be shown with an implementation date in the MPC.
I think someone at NPD is imagining something that didn't happen.
I respectfully disagree that the 68 style of routing the proportioning valve was used at any time in 67 production. I have seen a number of other late production June builds that were as typical mounted in back which is the basis for my opinion. I think it is more likely that if a 68 style was found on a late 67 that it was because a PO had replaced it . Different distribution block,different brake lines , different brake warning switch and corresponding wiring harness plug are some other issues that would also need to be addressed besides the forward placement of proportioning valve if a change was made in late production. I think this substantial change took place job 1 for the 68 production year until substantial evidence suggests otherwise.
-
I contacted Scott at NPD (Scott302 on this forum) about the listing in the NPD catalog about the "very late 67 brake line, 2265-25" and here is a portion of his reply. On a side note, I've been in contact with Bob Gaines on this subject as well.
If I remember correctly the part was created by the manufacturer, Classic Tube, based on a sample they received that did not match the drawings they had. They identified it as being original and built lines from that sample. This dates back decades ago. The application info we list is that which Classic Tube provided to us based on the info they were given with the sample. We have to stay open to the idea that the sample was original and our application data specifies very late production with a front mounted prop valve. Those ordering it would understand that requirement (I hope) and is evidenced by the lack of returns of the part.
If it is was not actually an original sample it does allow the use of the Ford replacement valve up front and fills the space left by the removal of the rear cylindrical valve. Regardless I’ll tweak the application info a bit.
Regards,
Scott
-
I contacted Scott at NPD (Scott302 on this forum) about the listing in the NPD catalog about the "very late 67 brake line, 2265-25" and here is a portion of his reply. On a side note, I've been in contact with Bob Gaines on this subject as well.
If I remember correctly the part was created by the manufacturer, Classic Tube, based on a sample they received that did not match the drawings they had. They identified it as being original and built lines from that sample. This dates back decades ago. The application info we list is that which Classic Tube provided to us based on the info they were given with the sample. We have to stay open to the idea that the sample was original and our application data specifies very late production with a front mounted prop valve. Those ordering it would understand that requirement (I hope) and is evidenced by the lack of returns of the part.
If it is was not actually an original sample it does allow the use of the Ford replacement valve up front and fills the space left by the removal of the rear cylindrical valve. Regardless I’ll tweak the application info a bit.
Regards,
Scott
Thanks Jim for reaching out to Scott on this issue. This isn't the first time that the tube companies have made up a pattern based on a incorrect sample. At the very least the modified brake line will allow options for owners on which style they could possibly put on their 67 cars . Not factory but the 68 style on a 67 has maintenance and cost advantages . FYI you will have to substitute the 67 style plastic brake warning switch in the 68 distribution block for things to match up with the 67 wiring harness. The repro 68 distribution block and proportioning valve that includes lines assembly is spot on with the exception of the metal stamped engineering number .
-
I looked through my picture collection and did not find any to support this purported early vs. late thing, so I guess I was caught up in the hype.
-
I looked through my picture collection and did not find any to support this purported early vs. late thing, so I guess I was caught up in the hype.
NPD has such a great track record it is no wonder why so many people myself included bank on many things that they put in their catalog. I don't know about anyone else but I am giving them a pass on this misunderstanding in their catalog.
-
NPD and WCCC has been great to deal with over the years. If this many here are confused I could easily see how it could happen at NPD with what they carry.
Don at West Coast Classic Cougar was extremely helpful as well with some hands-on information.
-Keith