Author Topic: 67 K/H Calipers - Early  (Read 3430 times)

Offline 67gta289

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67 K/H Calipers - Early
« on: March 16, 2015, 10:46:29 PM »
Do these part numbers and stampings look correct for a Dec 66 SJ?  If not what should I be looking for?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 11:26:19 PM by J_Speegle »
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
MCA 74660

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2015, 11:24:01 PM »
An original example from a December 15th scheduled car - Looks like a possible match





And just for comparison for others, one from a March scheduled example. Both San Jose



« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 11:26:35 PM by J_Speegle »
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2015, 06:09:58 AM »
John, I hear this voice echoing in my head....

"THE SEARCH FEATURE IS YOUR FRIEND, ...The search feature is your friend...the search feature is your friend..."

http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=8827.msg51459#msg51459
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 06:12:22 AM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch
MCA Certified Judge, 67-68

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline 67gta289

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2015, 07:05:36 AM »
Hey that is often my line - no fair!  Thanks for the replies, will check thread sizes also.
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
MCA 74660

Offline 67gta289

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2015, 08:41:36 PM »
Thread size on the source line is 7/16 x 24 NS (national special).

Jeff, not to get off trail, but the first picture you provided has what I normally consider a 65-66 brake pad retainer (one large piece), whereas the last picture has what I consider the 67 style, two independent smaller retainers.  Do you concur, is that a slam dunk observation, or do I need to start a different thread?  I guess my post started with threads and ended the same.

Thanks, John
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
MCA 74660

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2015, 01:13:21 AM »
Jeff, not to get off trail,..................

We're still discussing Early San Jose calipers no problem following this path of discussion ;)

Believe you will find that the details you see in that picture is the way early 67 San Jose Disc brake cars were equipped and that the retainer changed with the change to the "stronger" reinforced caliper later in the year.  Looks like the original safety wire is still in place a rare occurrence IMHO
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2015, 07:52:28 AM »
John, Jeff's first picture and all of the pictures in your original post seem to follow your questioning for EARLY caliper design. and all of those pictures look like what I have on my very early November SJ example. (pictures of my calipers are in the other thread I put a link to earlier)

I couldn't tell you when the 67 late design entered the picture (fairly sure the MPC would give the date) but it MAY stand to reason the change occured whenever all of the brake/fuel lines design changed

I have the MPC now on disc but it is at work, so  cannot look at this moment It stands to reason, like Jeff said, that  the hardware would change at the same time the calipers did.

Richard
Richard Urch
MCA Certified Judge, 67-68

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Well Optioned
2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2015, 11:42:15 PM »
I couldn't tell you when the 67 late design entered the picture (fairly sure the MPC would give the date) but it MAY stand to reason the change occured whenever all of the brake/fuel lines design changed

Checked and the MPC shows a change from C7OZ-2B120 & 2B121-B to C7OZ-2B120 & 2B121-C on 10/17/66 but that doesn't seem to hold up well when compared to what they actually did at the plants - original unrestored examples. Another swing and miss for the MPC ;)

BTW the page is from a Aug 1967 version
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline Paperback Writer

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2015, 11:46:06 PM »
Here are some shots of the calipers that were on my 1967 390 GTA convertible. The car was built in SJ on Sept. 22, 1966. 
The first five photos are of the driver side caliper, and the other seven are the passenger side...

1967 390 GTA Convertible
7R03S110###
76B - V - 6U - 30J - 72 - 1 - U

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2015, 02:00:50 AM »
Here are some shots of the calipers that were on my 1967 390 GTA convertible. The car was built in SJ on Sept. 22, 1966. 
The first five photos are of the driver side caliper, and the other seven are the passenger side...
Those are the later style with the different bolts and the larger diameter C7 brake hose.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline Paperback Writer

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2015, 09:06:48 PM »
Thanks for the clarification Bob, and sorry for the confusion.  I've had the car for over 30 years, and had no reason to believe that these were not original to the car...
1967 390 GTA Convertible
7R03S110###
76B - V - 6U - 30J - 72 - 1 - U

Offline 67gta289

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2015, 10:11:14 AM »
Those are the later style with the different bolts and the larger diameter C7 brake hose.

I'm doing some more research, and I've got what appear to be original K/H brakes from a Dearborn build car, schedule date Dec 3.

They are what I'll call 66 style, with the boot ring that is a separate steel ring that pushes on with an interference fit.  They have the older style single full coverage pad retainer.  The hose thread size is 3/8-24 NS.  The hose itself is a C7OZ part, but the rest of the number is not readable.  The hose is 3/8-24 NS.

So I have three questions to start with (may have more later...)

1. Bob mentioned a larger diameter C7 brake hose.  Is that hose diameter only, or is there a commensurate increase in thread size also.  If there is, to what?

2. Am I correct in assuming that the "early" 67 disc brake calipers were actually carry over from 66, and there was a running change to introduce a new version.

3. What is the list of differences between the versions?  (1) pad retainers, (2) dust boot retainer, ???

Thanks, John
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
MCA 74660

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2015, 01:05:51 PM »
I'm doing some more research, and I've got what appear to be original K/H brakes from a Dearborn build car, schedule date Dec 3.

They are what I'll call 66 style, with the boot ring that is a separate steel ring that pushes on with an interference fit.  They have the older style single full coverage pad retainer.  The hose thread size is 3/8-24 NS.  The hose itself is a C7OZ part, but the rest of the number is not readable.  The hose is 3/8-24 NS.

So I have three questions to start with (may have more later...)

1. Bob mentioned a larger diameter C7 brake hose.  Is that hose diameter only, or is there a commensurate increase in thread size also.  If there is, to what?

2. Am I correct in assuming that the "early" 67 disc brake calipers were actually carry over from 66, and there was a running change to introduce a new version.

3. What is the list of differences between the versions?  (1) pad retainers, (2) dust boot retainer, ???

Thanks, John
1. 65/66 smaller size fitting diameter on hose .  2. I can only assume.   3. Same things you list with the addition of hardware.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline 67gta289

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2015, 02:49:00 PM »
(Modified)

Thanks Bob.

Since I have a C7OA hose attached to these 65-66 style Kelsey Hayes calipers, I'm inclined to think that there were at least three different styles used in Mustangs:

1. 65-66 AND early 67 with 3/8-24 NS hose fitting size, external boot retaining rings, and single full size brake pad retainer.
2. 67 with 3/8-24 NS fitting size, internal boot retaining rings, and dual small brake pad retainers.
3. late 67 with 7/16-xx fitting size, internal boot retaining groove, and dual small brake pad retainers.

As Bob mentioned hardware differences are also in play, but I'm concentrating on the big picture at the moment.

Looking for comments and corrections, especially in the 65-66 and late 67 hose fitting sizes.

Bob also stated in the related post that "Early build SJ 67 car's used the small inlet like the 65/66"

So it could be that thr 65-66 and early 67 are 3/8-24 NS, and the late 67 are larger.  If that is the case, then the early 67's may be a direct carry over from 65-66.

As for trying to determine the change over date(s), I can offer:

1. 7F01C129xxx Dec 3 scheduled build, has the 65-66 and early 67 caliper style.
2. My156855xxx Dec 20 actual build car had probably more than one caliper exchanges by the time I got it in 1979 :(
3. Jeff's posting above of "original example from a December 15th scheduled car" that is the early 67 style.
4. Richard's (67gtasanjose) 11/02/66 had the early 67 type http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=8827.msg51459#msg51459
5. Jeff's other examples from March, San Jose, of the late 67 type.

To confuse the issue, I have some 3/8-24 (early) threaded calipers with the late style grooved boot retaining rings, although they appear to be aftermarket, with no K/H markings.  Will post pictures later.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 04:33:04 PM by 67gta289 »
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
MCA 74660

Offline 67gta289

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Re: 67 K/H Calipers - Early
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2015, 07:56:39 PM »
I did a bit more homework, in the attached file.  Comments welcome! John
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
MCA 74660