Topic: Ball Joints 67, Upper and Lower Arm Rebuilding

[67gtasanjose]

Re RIVETS: Thanks for the input to this point. I see that especially for the waffle pattern I need for my build information ON THE UPPERS, it may be best done by somebody who already has the tooling. As I get the arms ready for the riveting, I'll make that final decision when ready. (Still holding out for a source of riveting tool recommendations)

Looking into my UPPER CONTROL ARM SHAFTS, one side had some play in it, other side I had rebuilt just before parking the car 20 years ago and was tight. It looks like I should consider new upper shaft kits. WHERE is the best source of a reproduction shaft kit?, again, looking towards Concours Driven but I want these to look correct.

[67gtasanjose]

ANOTHER QUESTION (to add to my previous post on where to buy correct repro shaft kits):
11/66 built SJ, UPPER ARMS appear to need to be restored to ALL NATURAL STEEL (with gun blueing attributes) and LOWER ARMS maybe??? 1/2 dipped in Semi Gloss Black (also with gun blueing attributes), Is this CORRECT?

Honestly, I think there may be some 67 SJ version LOWER control arms that are completely BLACK. It looks as though mine were BOTH all black, one absolutely know as original to my build and the other removed from another car in 1978 that I got the fender from. The fender has a December date, with evidence it was a San Jose car since it matches 100% to the unrestored underside of the drivers fender (correct date on drivers fender, never repainted before I bought car in 1978)

Attached are 2 pictures borrowed from a renowned Restorer's website including details I hope to duplicate to whatever I ought to do given my build date. Regarding the UPPER control arms, that site only looks to have pictures of a 68-69 version so hardware details would differ (red dye on nuts NOT used on 67's).

Below the two "borrowed" images, are two more images of my original arms, partially stripped down.  You can see evidence of paint under the strut rod mounting and all the way to the tip of the arm suggesting that the whole arm was painted black after assembled. I had never removed these arms completely before, I once replaced the lower inner bushings right after I bought the car (1978) and this was done without removing the arms from the car. After that time, nothing was ever done to the arms.

Any sort of time frame this is correct for that we understand for the SJ cars?

[J_Speegle]

Any sort of time frame this is correct for that we understand for the SJ cars?

After seeing thousands of 67 San Jose cars must report that I've never seen an original completely painted (lower) in all that time other than the ones that had evidence of black on other accepted bare steel parts int he same area - like spindles and sway bar links that suggested that someone had been in there painting

Must say that by 76 allot of things may and were done to many of these cars. Just sharing what I've seen and done

As always one or even two examples may get or attention but still fall short of prof enough (IMHO) to change current beliefs.  This (for others) should not be seen as being closed minded but we need to remain objective and search for more examples, if they are are out there, and more understanding. Think we;ve sort of held all things to these practices for the betterment of the "hobby"

Just as a possibility I wonder what would have been done at Moog or TRW if the mechanism or worker that dipped these parts allowed the part to be submerged completely or past what we see as the norm? Would the parts be thrown away, placed into the over the counter line or just thrown in the container going to the assembly plant and the correction made before the next batch.   Just a though and maybe a possibility

[Bob Gaines]

FYI the 67 arms do not use safety red dye on the grease plugs. Just bare steel . Same on the upper control arm inner shaft nuts . Safety red not used on 67 nuts. 

[67gtasanjose]

After seeing thousands of 67 San Jose cars must report that I've never seen an original completely painted (lower) in all that time other than the ones that had evidence of black on other accepted bare steel parts int he same area - like spindles and sway bar links that suggested that someone had been in there painting

Must say that by 76 allot of things may and were done to many of these cars. Just sharing what I've seen and done

As always one or even two examples may get or attention but still fall short of prof enough (IMHO) to change current beliefs.  This (for others) should not be seen as being closed minded but we need to remain objective and search for more examples, if they are are out there, and more understanding. Think we;ve sort of held all things to these practices for the betterment of the "hobby"

Just as a possibility I wonder what would have been done at Moog or TRW if the mechanism or worker that dipped these parts allowed the part to be submerged completely or past what we see as the norm? Would the parts be thrown away, placed into the over the counter line or just thrown in the container going to the assembly plant and the correction made before the next batch.   Just a though and maybe a possibility

UPDATE FOLLOWING USE OF RUST 911 (Evaporust equivalent)

See pictures below. BOTH arms confirmed now they were clearly dipped similar to others found to date, thus proving Jeff's reply. No anomaly found here after all! I'll update my previous comments so as not to steer anyone incorrectly. (pun intended)

Obviously, I repainted the arms most likely when I replaced the strut rod bushings, this was done when I was 16-years-old. I would have thought I would remember this; but oh well...I'm getting old I suppose  Boy, that old Krylon held up very well under the Easy-Off cleaning!  I am sure nobody but myself has worked on this car...EVER, the mileage when purchased and overall "un-kept" condition of this car when purchased showed me then it was one of those examples we long to seek and find today! (original hoses and the likes ALL still in place back in the day, removed RIGHT AWAY and discarded so it would be safer to drive ~what we all seemed to do back then )

FYI the 67 arms do not use safety red dye on the grease plugs. Just bare steel . Same on the upper control arm inner shaft nuts . Safety red not used on 67 nuts. 

Yep, that much I understood (I actually mentioned the dyed hardware but did not mention the grease zerk plug detail), thanks for pointing the detail out so perhaps others will not copy the detail by viewing the previously supplied images.

Good to have 100% confirmation BEFORE work is done. Thanks everyone! Moving forwards, my decisions are now much better educated

[Bob Gaines]

Although the arms can be dipped straight down when doing them yourself. Many original examples observed seem to indicate that typically they were hung from a hook causing more weight on one side which resulted in them being dipped at a angle . Your witness line on your bare metal arm is just another example of that effect.

[67gtasanjose]

Another note for those taking notes on DATE CODES, I found two very clear to read codes.  UPPER ARM (original to my buid) J4 (September 4th if I understand the decipher correctly) and interesting enough, another J4 on the lower arm known to be replaced way back in '78. (Fender & door also used from the same donor car are both dated early December) The other upper (known original to my build), I see a stamping but cannot make it out clearly. It is possibly something like J5 but top half of stamping isn't clear since it was on a rounded surface. Last, the other lower arm (original to my build), I find no sign at all of a stamp anywhere.

[67gtasanjose]

Still just spit-balling ideas...I cannot imagine nobody has tried these ideas and perhaps since the ball-joint riveting is a safety-related item AND an item many PROFESSIONAL Restorers do as "Services for Hire", my replies are limited out of liability or financial concerns but if anyone has experience they may be unwilling to share publically, please consider private messaging me as an alternative.

Riveting tools like this for duplicating the waffle pattern are out there, so obviously, individuals are doing such work: http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_model_t/waffle-tool-for-setting-body-rivets-use-with-air-gun.html
 At about $30 each tool, I see it becomes cost-prohibitive quickly for most do-it-yourselfers. As mentioned earlier, I often change ball joints for hire so I wouldn't mind outfitting myself to do riveting work on those jobs too. Many ball joint kits have cheap bolts provided that I end up replacing with harder bolts for safety issues.

[CharlesTurner]

I don't see how using that air hammer bit would yield desired results.  Maybe after pressing with a flat bit and then using it as a finisher?

[J_Speegle]

Jeff, does rare parts have the parts and ability to do this job correctly ?  -Concours-

Sorry this took a couple of days - and example of the rivets (waffle patterns - one of maybe a dozen available)  done at Rare Parts (upper A arm style) for comparison

Please ignore the scratches and marks left in the metal - not the focus right now





Original 69s from another thread for comparison

[Bossbill]

Oh boy. My turn.

First pic, from right to left, a spare LCA in all of its greasy glory, a degreased and cleaned version and finally one of my original Shelby arms that still have great jacking tabs and are in really good shape.
The ball joint was removed in order to make sure all traces of rust are removed. I removed the bushing too.

The second pic shows the jack pads.

The third pic is of the original ball joint and rivets with the swollen boot cut off.
Enough of the show and tell.

I have the original lower ball joint and it appears to be in decent shape. I originally planed to just to replace it. Now I'm not so sure.
I've never seen a closeup of a Moog ball joint and don't know if I should use it or the original.

The car will compete in concours.

[Bob Gaines]

Typically the lowers don't need replacement. If they are tight I would just re use them . The upper ball joints take the majority of the abuse. Double check the MOOG ball joints as some are shorter and require the use of a shorter castle nut for the cotter pins to work.

[Bossbill]

After closer inspection I'll reuse the lowers and source new boots, seal holding plate and rivets.
I'll be sending off the arms to have rivets pressed.

These take an inordinate amount of time and labor to look right. I'm beginning to understand the prices people get for completed arms.

[67gta289]

Arms dealers?  Couldn’t resist.

[67gtasanjose]

After closer inspection I'll reuse the lowers and source new boots, seal holding plate and rivets.
I'll be sending off the arms to have rivets pressed.

NOS service replacement boots show up now and again. I believe that I found the zinc plates and gaskets at NPD to finish off the lower ball joint parts list. The plates looked like excellent reproductions, I could not tell them apart.
HARRIS bushings (with the cam bolts as kits) are available about 1/2 as often as the NOS boots. Happy Hunting.
You are correct about how much time it takes to ready the arms for tumbling. Also a good idea to pay to have the rivets pressed 'as original's, the technique and tooling can get pricey if you do not plan to do these as a hobby regularly.