Author Topic: 1965 / 1966 Radiators - Including Soldered Tags  (Read 2312 times)

Offline 65Autolite

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1965 / 1966 Radiators - Including Soldered Tags
« on: September 11, 2016, 11:27:42 PM »
My goal on this thread is to get accurate information spread for concours restorations and collectors!

There were two style radiators used in 1965 / 1966 Mustang production (excluding rare optional "desert cooler" radiators):

W-MO (Western Modine) vendor radiators characterized by rounded strap ends attaching to radiator lid. Lid is shaped to strap ends where strap attach. Lid had "W-MO" in raised letters with date code in MONTH-YEAR format underneath (i.e. 4-65 for April 1965).
-In 1965 Mustang production (could carry over into beginning of 1966) they featured a raised "C4ZE" with "_2" on top lid. The "_" being application letter (see chart below). "2" represented W-MO as supplier.
-In 1966 Mustang production they featured a soldered "C4ZE-_2" tag on RH-side strap on top lid. The "_" being application letter (see chart below). "2" represented W-MO as supplier. V8 radiators are found on San Jose assembled Mustangs.

DEP (Dearborn Engine Plant?) radiators characterized by squared strap ends attaching to radiator lid. These radiators were stamped "DEP C4ZE-8005-_1" on LH-side strap with the "_" being application letter (see chart below), followed by a three digit date code in YEARMONTHWEEK format (i.e. 5DA for 1965 April 1st week). "1" represented DEP as supplier. V8 radiators are found on Dearborn and Metuchen assembled Mustangs.

1965 / 1966 V8 Application ID:
C4ZE-
Y = V8 manual transmission only - Std. Cool.
Z = V8 automatic transmission only - Std. Cool.
G = V8 manual transmission only - with AC, additionally used on K-code including Shelby GT350
M = V8 automatic transmission only - with AC, additionally used on K-code including Shelby GT350

1964-1/2 Mustang V8 radiators have been found with other letters used. Information is very limited.
Examples found:
DEP C4ZE-8005-B1, 4AB date = V8 A/T
W-MO C4ZE-B2, 6-64 date = 260 A/T w/o AC
DEP C4ZE-8005-H1, 4AB date = V8 A/T
W-MO C4ZE-S2, 5-64 date = V8 M/T

NOTE: On 1965 W-MO radiators there have been several G2 examples found with cutout "G" patches attached over the stamped letter on radiator lid. Perhaps these were supplied by W-MO as substitutes for a short supply of G2 radiators.

NOTE: DEP radiator cores have been found with a small soldiered tag with core date code in YEAR/MONTH/WEEK format (i.e. 5DA).

Factory "desert cooler" radiators were also optional:
C6ZE-E (stamped on strap) = V8 manual transmission
C6ZE-F (stamped on strap) = V8 automatic transmission

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Sources of information:
eBay (sales listings for radiator pictures), my personal radiator acquisitions (mainly DEP), Concours Mustang Forum!, SAAC Forum!, build sheets (V8), 1966 Mustang Shop Manual (page 11-12), MCA shows, 65/66 Mustangs for sale, Bob Gains, and Bob Mannel.

Keep in mind you can determine A LOT just by looking at original radiator examples (none of which is subjective):
-Inlet and outlet to determine V8 or I-6
-Bottom tank to determine A/T or M/T
-Western Modine radiators characteristic of "W-MO" on top lid with date code (1964/1966)
-Western Modine radiators characteristic of "C4ZE" on top lid with application letter (1964/1965)
-Western Modine radiators characteristic of soldiered "C4ZE-_2" tag used instead of lid stamp (1966)
-DEP radiators characteristic of LH-side strap with stamped "DEP C4ZE-8005-_1" followed by date code (1964/1966)

To get idea on V8 verification (not throwing darts),
On the W-MO radiators (Y2,G2,M2,Z2) I have personally seen/recorded single application examples of G2 and Y2 for 10 out of 12 months of 1965 and majority of 1966. Additionally, a large number of BOTH G2 and Y2 dated 1964 (Aug.-Dec.). For M2 and Z2 I have looking at a very large number (18+) examples. DEP radiators are harder to reference, I've personally owned eight (four Y1's, one Z1, one G1, two M1) in the last 5+ years. A large sample of each have been verified including Z1.

Determining the M/T "G" versus "Y" and A/T "M" versus "Z" outside of 65/66 survivor Mustang examples can be further supported by Metuchen build sheets that show the ENG., TRANS., RADIATOR, and A/C fields. Metuchen sheets do show in the RADIATOR field the following codes "Y","G","Z","9". The "Y","G","Z" corresponding to appropriately stamped/tagged radiators, whereas the "9" crosses to radiators with "M".
Just several observed writing this post for pure example:
-RADIATOR field of "Y" on 1966 A-code with "5" TRANS, blank A/C field.
-RADIATOR field of "Z" on 1966 A-code with "6" TRANS, blank A/C field.
-RADIATOR field of "Z" on 1966 C-code with "6" TRANS, blank A/C field.
-RADIATOR field of "G" on 1966 K-code with "5" TRANS, blank A/C field.
-RADIATOR field of "9" on 1966 A-code with "6" TRANS, "5" (Fordaire Cond.) in A/C field.

Posting on ConcoursMustang with build sheet decode info:
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=3925.msg22183#msg22183

"1966 Comet, Falcon, Fairlane and Mustang Shop Manual" on page 10-12 shows:
-Five different V8 radiator specifications. The last one is the "desert cooler" so it shows there were 4 different unique factory installed radiators (excluding the desert cooler) to match four different applications.
-Verifies that all V8 applications were applicable to Mustangs with or without TE (Thermactor Emissions) so TE was not a factor on applications.

The expertise of individuals like Bob Gaines can attest to the G2 being used on 1965 Shelby GT-350's, G2 and M2 on 1966 Shelby GT350's.

In 5+ years of observing 64/66 radiators every DEP radiator has had a "1" at end of stamped part # and every W-MO has had a "2" after application letter. Reading about Ford designating suppliers with "1" and "2" at end of part numbers in Bob Mannels book I decided to contact him via E-mail and he confirmed my suspicious that the "1" and "2" on radiators identified supplier/vendor.


*********************

Confusion & Errors

Biggest points to help confusion:
*1965 Mustang production W-MO radiators had part # stamped on lid and DEP radiators stamped on LH-side strap.
*1966 Mustang production W-MO radiators used the soldiered "C4ZE-_2" (V8) and "C6ZE-_2" (6-cylinder) tags.

(The Internet has made it possible to get much more information than what was available in the past on 64/66 Mustang radiators! I realize older references did the best they could with the information they had available.)

To address errors I am seeing people base concours correct information off:

Kevin Marti's "The Mustang and Cougar Tag Book"
Errors (related to Mustangs I can not speak for Cougars and I don't think both should be combined):
*Soldered radiator tags were not used in 1965 Mustang production as listed in first six entries.
*Soldiered radiator tags were not used on a Mustang equipped with 260 engine as listed in four entries.
*C4ZE-G2 soldered tags were used in 1966 Mustang production, not 1965.
*C4ZE-H2 soldiered tags were NEVER used on a Mustang.
*C4ZE-M2 soldered tags were used in 1966 Mustang production, not 1965.
*C4ZE-Y2 soldiered tags were used in 1966 Mustang production, not 1965.
*C6ZE-H2 soldiered tags were NEVER used on a Mustang.

NPD catalog (2016 edition), TAG, Radiator ID
NPD description states "Used mostly on Dearborn built cars. Soldered to tank bracket. About half the 65-68's used these.".
**Soldered tags were not used on 1965 Mustang production radiators (both W-MO and DEP).
**Soldered tags were used on 1966 Mustang production W-MO V8 radiators (found on San Jose built).
Chart:
*W-MO radiators did NOT use soldiered C4ZE-_2 tags during 1965 Mustang production as found in seven entries.
*Soldiered radiator tags were not used on a Mustang equipped with 260 engine as listed in four entries.
*C4ZE-G2 soldered tag was used with AC, NOT "w/o AC" and used in 1966 production, not 1965 as listed. G2 is neither "early" or "late".
*C4ZE-Y2 soldiered tag was used without AC, NOT "w/A/C" and used in 1966 production, not 1965 as listed. Y2 is neither "early" or "late"
*C4ZE-H2 soldiered tag was never used in 1965 or 1966 Mustang production as listed.
*C4ZE-Z2 soldiered tags was used on V8 A/T, not 200 A/T.
*C6ZE-H2 soldiered tag was never used in 1966 Mustang production as listed.

YEARONE (www.yearone.com)
Errors:
*Soldered "C4ZE-_2" tags were not used in 1965 Mustang production, they were used in 1966 Mustang production.
*Soldered C4ZE-H2 tags were not used in Mustang production.
*Soldered C6ZE-H2 tags were not used in Mustang production.
*Too many more to list!

I'd like to work with the above and will do so when I get time!

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I commend AMK Products for taking a very strong interest in providing accurate information on the W-MO soldiered tags they sell!

(AMK does list the orientation of the soldiered C4ZE-_2 tags incorrectly at this time. FRONT should be facing to the > RIGHT in their picture, not < LEFT.)

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***ANY ADDITIONAL 6-CYLINDER EXAMPLES NOT LISTED APPRECIATED!***

1964-1/2 6-cylinder Application ID (WORK IN PROGRESS):
C4ZE-
A = M/T (not verified) *found on W-MO 6-64 lid
N = A/T only *found on W-MO 3-64

2=W-MO

1965 6-cylinder Application ID (WORK IN PROGRESS):
C4ZE-
D = A/T only *found on W-MO 10-64, W-MO 12-64, W-MO 2-65
F = A/T only *found on W-MO 12-64
U = M/T only *found on W-MO 7-64, W-MO 10-64, W-MO 2-65, W-MO 4-65

2=W-MO

1966 6-cylinder Application ID (WORK IN PROGRESS):
C6ZE-
A = A/T only - Std. Cool.
B = M/T only - Std. Cool.
D = A/T only - with AC or XC or TE
G = M/T only - with AC or XC or TE

1=DEP (found on A1, B1)
2=W-MO (found on B2, D2, G2)
*B1 verified with 11 fins/inch.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 01:16:05 PM by Autolite »

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: 1965 / 1966 V8 Radiators - Including Solidered Tags
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2016, 12:47:22 AM »
There were two style radiators used in 1965 / 1966 Mustang production.


We'll we all have to start somewhere and so you'll have at least one response to your post  ;)

Let me start with - Which one of the two styles does the factory installed "Desert cooler" fall into?
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline MattDoscher

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Re: 1965 / 1966 V8 Radiators - Including Solidered Tags
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2016, 02:35:14 PM »
What about the 6cyl folks?  I know this topic was started initially for the V-8 crowd.  Is there any info on 6cyl rads?

Matt
Matt Doscher
5F07C395128
Caspian Blue exterior, Palomino deluxe interior.

Offline Josep

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Re: 1965 / 1966 V8 Radiators - Including Solidered Tags
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2016, 03:32:36 PM »
What about the 6cyl folks?  I know this topic was started initially for the V-8 crowd.  Is there any info on 6cyl rads?

Matt

Well, I'm afraid I started a thread regarding tags on rads, and my car is a 6Cyl..!
So Autolite started another thread..

Josep
1966 Mustang Hardtop 200 Inline 6 - Arcadian Blue - AT TE - 6R07T213966 - San Jose built June 11th 1966
1966 Mustang Convertible 289-2V - Vintage Burgundy - AT PS DB - 6F08C109403 - Dearborn built September 9th 1965

Offline jstefanick

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Re: 1965 / 1966 V8 Radiators - Including Solidered Tags
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2016, 03:34:42 PM »
Autolite-

I can see your passion in wanting to get the details right- I think that is why we are all here, and I applaud you for trying to get an accurate baseline.

While I am not an expert at all myself, I believe I am well read and have access to most of the same internet sources most have for info, for better or worse.

For your initial post in this thread, it is very detailed to the point that I am curious of the source of your info? I cannot say I have any doubt, as I cannot add anymore beyond the in depth searches I do on the Internet.

Do you have some inside info, or perhaps know someone that has this store of information that we are all missing?

Good job trying to clarify what these tags mean and the effort is appreciated.

Offline 1970shelbyguy

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Re: 1965 / 1966 Radiators - Including Solidered Tags
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2016, 05:34:41 PM »
thought i'd ask about the radiator shroud.  when did they come factory installed. i was told at a show sunday that the shroud was an option-  owner's  car was an early production 65 C code fastback - no a/c.   thanks   hey jeff saw your video hanging out in the cougar wrecking yard  describing date codes -  wow!  great stuff

Offline carlite65

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Re: 1965 / 1966 Radiators - Including Solidered Tags
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2016, 05:44:42 PM »
in 65-66 only k-codes & cars with a/c had a shroud from the factory.
5F09C331248

Offline 1970shelbyguy

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Re: 1965 / 1966 Radiators - Including Solidered Tags
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2016, 06:23:34 PM »
 well  very good! - thanks for the verification-

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: 1965 / 1966 Radiators - Including Solidered Tags
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2016, 07:05:51 PM »
Sources added above.
Good job on the radiator information.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: 1965 / 1966 Radiators - Including Solidered Tags
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2016, 08:13:07 PM »
Sources added above.

Thanks

Looked through my collection of pictures and can only offer the following to add to your research. Most I could not read the stamps and many (T code cars) had the no strap style of radiators.


C4ZE-D2 -  (12-64) Automatic only
C6ZE-D2 - (5-66) Automatic only


Thought you might be interested in the following

C4ZE-B2  (6-64)  Very very early -Possible first couple of days of production - F code - Automatic, non- AC



Hope this helps in some way
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 12:38:47 AM by J_Speegle »
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline larryharvey

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Re: 1965 / 1966 Radiators - Including Soldered Tags
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2016, 09:55:07 PM »
Autolite,

Don't want to hijack your thread, but need groups opinion about this radiator. I uncovered it with the rest of my Hi Po parts. Has a couple of tags that I believe are radiator repair shop tags. They used them years ago to id customers radiators. Also wantwant some feed back on weather this radiator would be appropriate for an April 65 Hi Po.
Thanks
65 April 13th Dearborn K code GT

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: 1965 / 1966 Radiators - Including Soldered Tags
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2016, 10:07:53 PM »
Autolite,

Don't want to hijack your thread, but need groups opinion about this radiator. I uncovered it with the rest of my Hi Po parts. Has a couple of tags that I believe are radiator repair shop tags. They used them years ago to id customers radiators. Also wantwant some feed back on weather this radiator would be appropriate for an April 65 Hi Po.
Thanks

Looks like a long shot for a Deaborn or NJ  April built car just looking at the date alone. SHould be able to confirm the typical date spread from other original examples but think almost a year before is a long time
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline larryharvey

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Re: 1965 / 1966 Radiators - Including Soldered Tags
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2016, 10:33:48 PM »
Thanks Jeff,

That's what I was thinking also. I may just get it re-cored anyway. I have just about given up on finding the correct date coded radiator.

Thanks again

Larry
65 April 13th Dearborn K code GT

Offline sglbbs

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Re: 1965 / 1966 Radiators - Including Soldered Tags
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2016, 12:43:49 AM »
Autolite,

Don't want to hijack your thread, but need groups opinion about this radiator. I uncovered it with the rest of my Hi Po parts. Has a couple of tags that I believe are radiator repair shop tags. They used them years ago to id customers radiators. Also wantwant some feed back on weather this radiator would be appropriate for an April 65 Hi Po.
Thanks
Does your G1 have 12 fins per inch? I found this chart which I believe explains the difference between G1 and Y1 radiators.

66 GT 6T09K12---- scheduled Oct 14, bucked Oct 13 '65

Offline larryharvey

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Re: 1965 / 1966 Radiators - Including Soldered Tags
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2016, 12:55:55 PM »
AUTOLITE,

I will check it out tomorrow and post.

Thanks
65 April 13th Dearborn K code GT