ConcoursMustang Forums

Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Misc Items => Topic started by: 67gtasanjose on September 07, 2016, 11:01:37 AM

Title: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on September 07, 2016, 11:01:37 AM
I am rebuilding an otherwise good starter and looking for the paper cardboard gasket under the strap or band. I assume this is not a "special" material so I wondererd if people are simply making their own or if maybe a reproduction version would be more ideal (if available).
Title: Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: jwc66k on September 07, 2016, 11:44:48 AM
Richard,
Having designed, built prototypes and tested electronic components in a previous life, I would say that at the least, the "cardboard material" is most likely a special paper covered with an insulating varnish. The "special" part of the paper may include insulating properties and it may have a specific thickness requirement. It cost me $80 to have the 50 year old starter rebuilt for my 66 GT Fastback two months ago. The guy that actually did the work was almost as old as I am so we hit it off well. It was not a concourse restoration as the housing was painted and the Bendix spring cover and brush cover band were not replated. I would recommend you find a local alternator/starter/automotive electric shop and get some assistance.
Jim
Title: Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: CharlesTurner on September 07, 2016, 12:22:50 PM
I found that to be a simple thin paper gasket.  You can buy rolls of paper gasket material from an auto parts store and make one.
Title: Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: specialed on September 07, 2016, 12:38:13 PM
its a thick brown paper like but durable tape of some sort as I found something but is black  & the brown tape I found was too thin.  Most restorers miss this detail under the starter band & I think it was used to help seal outwater from inside starter.  I am having some autolite starters rebuilt now by a guy who been doing it in his shop last 40years. 
Title: Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on September 07, 2016, 12:58:19 PM
Richard,
Having designed, built prototypes and tested electronic components in a previous life, I would say that at the least, the "cardboard material" is most likely a special paper covered with an insulating varnish. The "special" part of the paper may include insulating properties and it may have a specific thickness requirement. It cost me $80 to have the 50 year old starter rebuilt for my 66 GT Fastback two months ago. The guy that actually did the work was almost as old as I am so we hit it off well. It was not a concourse restoration as the housing was painted and the Bendix spring cover and brush cover band were not replated. I would recommend you find a local alternator/starter/automotive electric shop and get some assistance.
Jim

Thanks Jim, I understand clearly the "engineering standpoint" of the paper (cardboard) gasket.  I can appreciate the nature of what Ford wanted in there.

FWIW, an $80 rebuild isn't really out of the question either but I do want mine rebuilt, not "exchanged".
 
I have rebuilt starters too on many occasions and haven't yet ever had too many issues with their performance, even after per-say the brushes shorted out. I usually turn down the armature and replace or lube the bushings as needed and 99% of the time they get a new drive gear. I am leaning towards doing this myself at this time mostly because the closest starter shop to me closed over 15 years ago now and there really isn't anything except cosmetic issues with this one I have.

Thanks for other inputs to this topic too. I figure it isn't likely that this starter will ever see water or snow exposure so I am inclined to just make my own (unless a good source is known or revealed before it goes on the engine)
Title: Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on September 07, 2016, 01:18:16 PM
Change of heart...I opened it up and the windings (armature & fields) all look a bit weathered by the years. Yes, the brushes are worn down too but I think this one needs a PRO builder.

I called one about 50 miles away...they happen to come TO ME to pick it up since I am very near to a School Bus shop they already come to about once a week.

Jim, you are ACES! :D (but you already knew that :)
Title: Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: jwc66k on September 07, 2016, 04:40:38 PM
FWIW, an $80 rebuild isn't really out of the question either but I do want mine rebuilt, not "exchanged".
A "hint", using a center punch, I made three dimples in the original nose piece of my 66 starter in an innocuous manner. The looked like part of the logo cast in the metal. I also stressed I wanted this starter rebuilt, no exchange PERIOD. On one of my other cars, a previous owner had the carburetor rebuilt. The shop did an exchange, a C5ZF-D 65 Mustang 289 AT, was replaced by a C1AE-AH 61 Ford 390 AT. They did keep the original tag.
Bottom line, tell the shop what you want (get it in writing), and if they won't guarantee that, go elsewhere.
Jim
Title: Re: Starter Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on October 04, 2016, 06:16:02 AM
I got my starter back yesterday. Hand picked up and hand delivered by the local, Cleveland rebuilder (Custom Electric Service, they are about 60 miles away). All work done for a mere $65

I am impressed with their willingness to work with me on Concours details (regarding painting) but we lost out on discussing the cardboard or paper gasket detail because of the primary issue inside about the field winding insulation. They ended up using another core 'body' instead of the one I sent because of the difficulty in removing the windings for replacing them. They did return my original nose cone, strap and abendix cover. Per our discussion, he was able to find in his core pile a Concours correct case "without stampings" as required for an early 67 year model so I am please with the results. They sent it back with a light coat of grey primer, avoiding spraying onto the nose cone housing and cable stud. (I'll paint it myself with my next batch of semi-gloss black parts)

Now, back to the band or strap gasket material issue. I'll give them a phone call and see if they have a product they use. They DID install a gasket under the abendix cover and my understanding is that is "concours correct" but maybe we should discuss this too?

Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 04, 2016, 10:15:01 AM
I am sure no one will notice but the gasket looks like it is a little narrow to me . That is a suggestion for next time . The ones I have seen are not the exact width as the band and hang out a little on each side if perfectly centered . With that said they are typically not seen perfectly centered. I would give it a pass.Good job.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: CharlesTurner on October 04, 2016, 10:49:56 AM
What about the terminal attaching nuts?  I'm used to seeing thin with star washer, same style as used on the solenoid.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on October 04, 2016, 11:22:09 AM
What about the terminal attaching nuts?  I'm used to seeing thin with star washer, same style as used on the solenoid.

Correct. I am understanding this is true also. I put this particular nut onto it when I bench-tested it. (not correct). I should have removed it for pictures

Willing to solicit other observations BEFORE I shoot the semi-gloss paint. Particularly suggestions about the gasket under the band, what best material to use there.
The gasket under the cover looks to be cork. I assume that is correct?
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on October 04, 2016, 11:31:30 AM
UPDATE:

I called the starter shop and they named the "paper" (not cardboard) material. Nomex 410 paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XNomex+paper.TRS0&_nkw=Nomex+paper&_sacat=0

I'll be getting a foot long piece of it from the starter shop next Monday on the delivery route ;)
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 04, 2016, 02:15:25 PM
UPDATE:

I called the starter shop and they named the "paper" (not cardboard) material. Nomex 410 paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XNomex+paper.TRS0&_nkw=Nomex+paper&_sacat=0

I'll be getting a foot long piece of it from the starter shop next Monday on the delivery route ;)
i get gasket paper/material from the auto parts stores . It is not Cork.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 04, 2016, 02:42:26 PM
I would also like to point out to those reading a detail that is overlooked. The factory style square opening plug is commonly replaced by rebuilders with a Phillips head style plug. It is highly visible if you are expecting to see it. The placement of the ink stamp should be more centered on the case near the top on the post side. There is some variation between starters to be sure , just not all the way to the edge of the nose where it may end up when trying to make it easily seen from above looking down . That was not typical.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on October 04, 2016, 02:52:59 PM
I would also like to point out to those reading a detail that is overlooked. The factory style square opening plug is commonly replaced by rebuilders with a Phillips head style plug. It is highly visible if you are expecting to see it. The placement of the ink stamp should be more centered on the case near the top on the post side. There is some variation between starters to be sure , just not all the way to the edge of the nose where it may end up when trying to make it easily seen from above looking down . That was not typical.

Thanks Bob, all "details" are being considered on my restore of the starter. My take on this is that the ink stamp should be much where it is placed (more or less) as in the image 1st shown of the I-6 200 starter used earlier in the thread (and again used here for reference).

2nd, is there a typical direction the screw bolt holding the strap on, or, is there a right way or wrong way that it should be facing? The one sent back from the starter shop is backwards to the "original unrestored" shown here from the 6 cylinder car.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Mike_B_SVT on October 04, 2016, 05:55:40 PM
Out of curiosity, did you happen to measure the thickness of the original Nomex paper?  That might help others get the right material in the future.

Thanks for the great info and details!
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on October 04, 2016, 06:35:48 PM
Out of curiosity, did you happen to measure the thickness of the original Nomex paper?  That might help others get the right material in the future.

Thanks for the great info and details!

15 inches by 1-3/8 inches wide but unknown about the thickness
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Scott302 on October 04, 2016, 07:29:44 PM
Thought there might be an opportunity to make a unique new part so I spent some time tearing apart a few starters I had laying around to create a prototype.  None had the paper intact but I was able to find remnants of the piece.  The thought of Nomex paper sounded interesting so I grabbed one of the pieces and took a lighter to it.  It immediately caught fire and burned.  Nomex wouldn't do that.  That's the charred piece on the right of the first image. 
Looking at the pieces the color looked a lot like a manilla folder so I dug one out of the files and started cutting.  I measured all the pieces that looked whole and came up with thicknesses ranging from .012" to .018" so I settled on .015" as being a good average and a thickness that is available in the Nomex paper. The folder is .010".  A little thin but it's what I had laying around.  I didn't have the overall length so I made this one 14" x 1 3/8".  Paper clipped that to the band and marked the areas to trim out. 
Cheers,
Scott

Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 04, 2016, 08:24:49 PM
Thought there might be an opportunity to make a unique new part so I spent some time tearing apart a few starters I had laying around to create a prototype.  None had the paper intact but I was able to find remnants of the piece.  The thought of Nomex paper sounded interesting so I grabbed one of the pieces and took a lighter to it.  It immediately caught fire and burned.  Nomex wouldn't do that.  That's the charred piece on the right of the first image. 
Looking at the pieces the color looked a lot like a manilla folder so I dug one out of the files and started cutting.  I measured all the pieces that looked whole and came up with thicknesses ranging from .012" to .018" so I settled on .015" as being a good average and a thickness that is available in the Nomex paper. The folder is .010".  A little thin but it's what I had laying around.  I didn't have the overall length so I made this one 14" x 1 3/8".  Paper clipped that to the band and marked the areas to trim out. 
Cheers,
Scott
Scott, although manila folder paper is a inexpensive alternative I think the thin gasket paper would hold up better to the elements and is inexpensive too. The thickness compares favorably compared to the NOS starters with gaskets still intact I have. It is not as inexpensive as cut up folder paper but still relative inexpensive all the same. Being painted as it would be on a completed starter would help protect even the folder paper some . The gasket paper would be given much more added protection as it is a more durable material to begin with. Just my observations. Others may have different.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: preaction on October 04, 2016, 09:14:05 PM
Great detail thanks for the research and posting.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Scott302 on October 05, 2016, 02:16:58 PM
As I mentioned I was creating a prototype.  The intent was to see what the part would look like and what it takes to make them.  My apologies to all if it seemed like I was promoting a manila folder as the material to create a correct reproduction.  I realize that I did not make that obvious in my post.
Upon closer examination of the pieces I pulled out and the remnants still on the starters it seems like the paper areas exposed to the "windows" of the starter case and the internal windings show some signs of extreme heat.  The thought of the paper burning alone (as I tried in my original post) is enough to keep me from supplying the part in a form other than using some kind of heat resistant material regardless of how correct it may be.  The idea of using the Nomex paper would be the only way I could consider it.  The problem then becomes the cost of the Nomex paper.  Just doing some quick calculations shows the material cost alone would be $2.00 or more.  On top of that would be the cost of the die, manufacturing and profit.  Not sure the market would support it with enough volume knowing now how easy it is to do on your own using readily available materials.

Regards,
Scott
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 05, 2016, 04:11:37 PM
As I mentioned I was creating a prototype.  The intent was to see what the part would look like and what it takes to make them.  My apologies to all if it seemed like I was promoting a manila folder as the material to create a correct reproduction.  I realize that I did not make that obvious in my post.
Upon closer examination of the pieces I pulled out and the remnants still on the starters it seems like the paper areas exposed to the "windows" of the starter case and the internal windings show some signs of extreme heat.  The thought of the paper burning alone (as I tried in my original post) is enough to keep me from supplying the part in a form other than using some kind of heat resistant material regardless of how correct it may be.  The idea of using the Nomex paper would be the only way I could consider it.  The problem then becomes the cost of the Nomex paper.  Just doing some quick calculations shows the material cost alone would be $2.00 or more.  On top of that would be the cost of the die, manufacturing and profit.  Not sure the market would support it with enough volume knowing now how easy it is to do on your own using readily available materials.

Regards,
Scott
I suspect the paper gets french fried by exhaust heat every bit as much as heat from extended starting attempts.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: jwc66k on October 05, 2016, 04:26:22 PM
Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? I did an internet search using "electric motor insulation paper" and this is the first site -
http://www.eis-inc.com/products/electrical-insulating-materials/
There are more.
A pattern is a good idea, but don't use ordinary materials.
Jim
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on October 10, 2016, 03:40:59 PM
I ended up going with about 14 1/2 inches.
I wasn't sure where to put the overlap so I put that at the bottom of the starter in case anything needs to drain out.

The Nomex material provided by my starter Rebuilder is approximately 4 mil thick (like posterboard)
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on October 12, 2016, 06:13:35 PM
OK painted.
Please let me know where else I can improve the workmanship.

I know about the onk stam (working on it)

I know about the correct cable nut.

Any other suggestions?
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 12, 2016, 06:20:11 PM
OK painted.
Please let me know where else I can improve the workmanship.

I know about the onk stam (working on it)

I know about the correct cable nut.

Any other suggestions?
A little too much paint on the block side end IMO. Maybe next time no so much . That end typically doesn't have that much paint. Just what I have seen.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on October 12, 2016, 07:15:25 PM
A little too much paint on the block side end IMO. Maybe next time no so much . That end typically doesn't have that much paint. Just what I have seen.

Could you elaborate? By "block side", do you mean the nose end nearest the bellhousing or the back side against the block? (pictures don't really show the back side) I had read elsewhere the black faded out at the nose cone however with an effort to cover the body of the starter up to the aluminum nose cone the transition may have gotten heavy.

This is one detail I haven't really seen enough pictures of what we ought to do, only descriptions that I have read and a few unrestored pictures that are not very clear to interpret.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 12, 2016, 08:13:16 PM
Could you elaborate? By "block side", do you mean the nose end nearest the bellhousing or the back side against the block? (pictures don't really show the back side) I had read elsewhere the black faded out at the nose cone however with an effort to cover the body of the starter up to the aluminum nose cone the transition may have gotten heavy.

This is one detail I haven't really seen enough pictures of what we ought to do, only descriptions that I have read and a few unrestored pictures that are not very clear to interpret.
Yes, a little too heavy at the nose cone or what I called block side even though it technically is bolting to the bellhousing. The point was to not get paint that far up which might hinder grounding. I know that you have it nice and clean on the flange portion that actually makes contact with the bellhousing/block but the minimal paint overspray at the forward section is typically just how they were when new.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: J_Speegle on October 12, 2016, 08:30:25 PM
Think we've discussed the paint details in other threads but here are a couple of examples Do have and have seen some where the outer edges of the mating surface to the black is almost bare of any black paint but as we can see not always.

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-121016193001-63371935.jpeg)

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-121016193000-633679.jpeg)
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on October 12, 2016, 08:52:55 PM
Yes, a little too heavy at the nose cone or what I called block side even though it technically is bolting to the bellhousing. The point was to not get paint that far up which might hinder grounding. I know that you have it nice and clean on the flange portion that actually makes contact with the bellhousing/block but the minimal paint overspray at the forward section is typically just how they were when new.


Think we've discussed the paint details in other threads but here are a couple of examples Do have and have seen some where the outer edges of the mating surface to the black is almost bare of any black paint but as we can see not always.

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-121016193001-63371935.jpeg)

(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-121016193000-633679.jpeg)


Thanks for the input from both of you. BOB, I think I get what you are saying yet Jeff's images are what I had pictured with my "mind's eye" as I read other threads and is very close to what I tried to reproduce.

If I understand this right, (going on Bob's description) "typically", the overspray, though not masked off, just barely makes it onto the nose cone, not as much as what is seen in Jeff's pictures (again, typically).

It's not impossible for me to remove the paint on just the nose cone (it's a Ditzler Lacquer base, gun-sprayed) but is it really worth it, if I might ask? In person, the transition is somewhat thin, transparent in areas.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: J_Speegle on October 12, 2016, 10:33:28 PM
If I understand this right, (going on Bob's description) "typically", the overspray, though not masked off, just barely makes it onto the nose cone, not as much as what is seen in Jeff's pictures (again, typically).

Have found them with a little or allot of fade or overspray on the aluminum section. Believe they wanted to make sure that the iron housing was painted to reduce rust developing and not sure how small a gun or pattern was used to make sure the lip that faces the tip or end of the starter was coated but not too much paint got on the mounting area. Believe that most of the grounding took place between the other side of the aluminum section and the face of the engine plate (sandwiched between the engine and transmission) and we accept the fact that the mounting bolts would have broken through the lightly painted surface providing a more positive and secondary ground.


Of course in cleaning originals we likely removed at least 50% of the light black overspray from the aluminum section this could explain why some have less than the uninstalled units we see examples of above. Just what I'm seeing and have seen - opinions vary :)  but I think we're looking for a range rather than an exact pattern or amount.  For this and me noticeable fade = good. Just remember to do the engine plate also.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 13, 2016, 12:50:06 AM


Thanks for the input from both of you. BOB, I think I get what you are saying yet Jeff's images are what I had pictured with my "mind's eye" as I read other threads and is very close to what I tried to reproduce.

If I understand this right, (going on Bob's description) "typically", the overspray, though not masked off, just barely makes it onto the nose cone, not as much as what is seen in Jeff's pictures (again, typically).

It's not impossible for me to remove the paint on just the nose cone (it's a Ditzler Lacquer base, gun-sprayed) but is it really worth it, if I might ask? In person, the transition is somewhat thin, transparent in areas.
You asked and I gave my opinion because you asked.   If you want to resist that is fine too. I did say "maybe next time"because I didn't think it would be worth the trouble .  Just not what I am used to seeing.    In your case , too much paint can be mistaken for wrong because it may be misinterpreted as being totally painted  where as less paint ,as in a more distinct contrast between the fade is unlikely to be be mistaken .   Again just my opinion.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on October 13, 2016, 05:45:24 AM
Thanks again guys, all of your opinions matter since the goal here is to obtain the "most correct" understanding to not only help myself, but others too that may be reading along.

Maybe time to put this one to rest. I began with what I thought would be a simple starter overhaul and paint job and managed to make a mountain out of a molehill.

SUMMARY: Doing the job all myself was the original plan but as indicated earlier, the internal windings (field coils) were frayed & tattered so the "cleaned" parts went to a local rebuilder who switched out the main body of the starter with another donor core and assembled the starter. Knowing I was wishing to obtain a concours painted finish, the rebuilder simply primered the body of the stater. Upon receiving the starter back, I noticed no gasket material under the band  (the basic root of this thread), I asked the shop what product was typically used there. This shop claimed they typically would use Nomex material for areas like this on an "as-needed" basis. (the strip measures aprox 14-1/2" x 1-1/2" x 4 mil thick) and sent me a strip to use. I trimmed the provided Nomex strip, installed it under the strap and spray-gun painted it semi-gloss black lacquer myself, following my best understanding of details seen in other threads. Hind sight being 20/20, I could probably have used a smaller paint gun (or puff-bomb, rattle can) instead to have ended up with a little less overspray on the nose cone mounting flange. I've since removed the light coat of overspray on some of the mounting flanges of the nose cone using a small brass wire-brush, then I masked off the main body of the now already black starter and edged in a lighter coat, fading in a bit closer to what Bob usually sees and what pictures Jeff provided earlier. I feel I'm now a lot closer to ready for the ink stamp (still working on details for that)

I hope this thread helps others who step out into this job as a do-it-yourselfer. Thanks again for all of the input of experience.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Richard P. on October 14, 2016, 03:37:30 PM
I have two questions. Is the starter in the picture posting # 29 for a 1965/66 Mustang? Does correct the top cover for the coil pull-in (held in place by the band) look like the one in the picture? I thought the top cover was made a little different. I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: jwc66k on October 14, 2016, 04:53:57 PM
Does correct the top cover for the coil pull-in (held in place by the band) look like the one in the picture? I thought the top cover was made a little different. I could be wrong.
I have the same question. My original 66 starter (San Jose, Oct 65, 289) does not have the extra "hump" on the Bendix cover. The replacement starter I installed while mine was being rebuilt, a C7AF-11101-B, has the "hump". The C7AF was a store bought rebuilt so it could have a later cover. Any idea about the cover changeover?
Jim
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Richard P. on October 14, 2016, 05:50:57 PM
I have the same question. My original 66 starter (San Jose, Oct 65, 289) does not have the extra "hump" on the Bendix cover. The replacement starter I installed while mine was being rebuilt, a C7AF-11101-B, has the "hump". The C7AF was a store bought rebuilt so it could have a later cover. Any idea about the cover changeover?
Jim
I don't have the capability of doing this, but could you post a picture of your top cover so that I can compare it with what I have.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: edwardgt350 on November 21, 2017, 10:15:27 PM
any updates for the correct 1966 stamp?
for april 1 car build date, what date should the starter be stamped?
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: J_Speegle on November 21, 2017, 10:28:55 PM
any updates for the correct 1966 stamp?

Not sure what sort of updates were being waited for. Beleive its been discussed, style and design documented through the original shown on the site and people who wanted to have made or purchased stamps for their projects


for april 1 car build date, what date should the starter be stamped?

Since real build dates are only a guess for the 65-6 cars to be safe you are best IMHO to pick a date approx 2 months prior to the guessed upon date your car was built. This also tends to fit the limited information we have comparing the two since most starters have been changed, rebuilt or painted over the last 50 or so years
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: edwardgt350 on November 22, 2017, 01:24:22 AM
was mainly curious as to what material is preferred as the gasket/insulating material under the rear band.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 196667Bob on November 22, 2017, 05:15:16 AM
There is a lot of great information contained in this Thread. However, I am a little confused ; most of the "talk" is about 1965-66's, yet I know Richard has a '67. To what years does this information apply ?
I also am particularly interested in the "all black" (except for the cone) paint. I have seen many, many starters that have natural colored bands, plunger covers and end caps. Is the difference Factory versus Service Parts, or ?

Thanks,

Bob
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: J_Speegle on November 22, 2017, 05:34:33 AM
was mainly curious as to what material is preferred as the gasket/insulating material under the rear band.

Sorry saw the question about the stamp and possible date. Didn't see any reference to the gasket

As for the gasket, since its painted, the exact material may not be as important as the look. I've used thin gasket (cardboard) material in the past, paper bag or covers from Hemmings in a pinch


There is a lot of great information contained in this Thread. However, I am a little confused ; most of the "talk" is about 1965-66's, yet I know Richard has a '67. To what years does this information apply ?

Have "gaskets" on starters up into 1969 built ones at least



I also am particularly interested in the "all black" (except for the cone) paint. I have seen many, many starters that have natural colored bands, plunger covers and end caps. Is the difference Factory versus Service Parts, or ?

Where have you seen these starters?  I've seen tons finished that was in rebuild boxes at parts stores, selling at swap meets and on cars that were suppose to be restored but not on original cars nor in Ford service boxes. Not sure if all the "factory rebuilt" ones were finished as they originally were

 Have allot of pictures of the last two, markings are different as well as other details on service replacements
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: J_Speegle on November 22, 2017, 05:36:57 AM
was mainly curious as to what material is preferred as the gasket/insulating material under the rear band.

Since its painted the exact material may not be as important as the look. I've used thin gasket (cardboard) material in the past, paper bag or covers from Hemmings in a pinch
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on November 22, 2017, 06:21:30 AM
was mainly curious as to what material is preferred as the gasket/insulating material under the rear band.

UPDATE:

I called the starter shop and they named the "paper" (not cardboard) material. Nomex 410 paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XNomex+paper.TRS0&_nkw=Nomex+paper&_sacat=0

I'll be getting a foot long piece of it from the starter shop next Monday on the delivery route ;)

I agree that the actual material is likely not as important as to what it is made out of originally since we are usually NOT driving these cars on a daily basis anymore. I believe the idea behind using a Nomex paper was more intended to be used only because it has a fire-resistant nature...even though materials such as gasket material are not likely a source of any fire under ordinary situations. (in the outside chance of a starter shorting out internally to ground, catching fire)
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 196667Bob on November 22, 2017, 11:02:17 AM

Where have you seen these starters?  I've seen tons finished that was in rebuild boxes at parts stores, selling at swap meets and on cars that were suppose to be restored but not on original cars nor in Ford service boxes. Not sure if all the "factory rebuilt" ones were finished as they originally were

 Have allot of pictures of the last two, markings are different as well as other details on service replacements

Well, obviously, I haven't seen many "original cars" over the last 40 years. Your comment about the paint being this way on original cars confirms the premise that I noted on such, plus your addition of most, if not all Service Replacements, and some Factory Rebuilt Starters, just adds to the knowledge.

I purchased and installed a Factory Rebuilt Starter from Ford in the mid 80's (it has a "C7TZ" body with a "D2" cone, and it came with a plain (not even plated) steel band, plunger cover and end.

So, generally then, all of the info in this thread would apply to 1965-69 Mustangs ; is that correct ?

Thanks for the clarifications.

Bob
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 196667Bob on November 22, 2017, 12:17:29 PM
Thanks Richard. That is the kind of "thing" I was looking for - just how much of all of this info is applicable to what years.
Per Jeff's statement in regard to the paper strip under the band, it sounds like that applies to all 1965-69, as does the painted all black with fading at the attaching flange/ cone.

Also, in looking at the MPC's, it appears that the Cork Plunger Cover Gasket was used into the 70's.

Any other "nuances" for these years would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Bob
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: edwardgt350 on November 22, 2017, 12:29:00 PM
description or pix of the cork plunger cover gasket?
is there any gaskets around the coarse threaded bolt/nut?
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 196667Bob on November 22, 2017, 12:53:06 PM
Here is one. Mine came in a Blue and White Ford Oval envelope, but contents the same.

Bob
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: J_Speegle on November 22, 2017, 01:20:03 PM
So, generally then, all of the info in this thread would apply to 1965-69 Mustangs ; is that correct ?

Yes in general or likely newer depending on starter  type.  One of the reasons this thread was left in the general discussion areas that applies across many different years and models 

is there any gaskets around the coarse threaded bolt/nut?


As shown in the pictures there is a rubber insulator around the stud to insulate it from the main case
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: edwardgt350 on November 22, 2017, 01:22:25 PM
is there a source for the cork cover gasket?
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 196667Bob on November 22, 2017, 01:40:17 PM
Yes, you can get an Aftermarket one that is similar (see attached picture), or "pay the price" on the one I previously pictured currently on Ebay ($11.37).

Bob
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: edwardgt350 on November 22, 2017, 01:45:50 PM
after market gasket at a local napa store or npd, vcm?
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: evantugby on March 31, 2018, 12:35:28 PM
Can anyone provide an image of a 1965-66 concours-correct starter for a 289?
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: J_Speegle on March 31, 2018, 02:26:07 PM
Can anyone provide an image of a 1965-66 concours-correct starter for a 289?

Currently all the ones I have pictures of either lack the correct stamping, are NOS (issues)  or are unrestored
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on March 31, 2018, 02:48:41 PM
Can anyone provide an image of a 1965-66 concours-correct starter for a 289?

In a similar situation, no original image or picture was available for my application. I had to research multiple threads to determine the best information available at this time for my particular example.
If you go back to the image provided in the very beginning of this thread, you will see a picture of a straight-6 cylinder starter. Obviously, that is not the correct engineering number for your needs. It does however give you an idea what an original starter would look like for your application. Do some research. Decide on an approximate date that your car would have on it. My understanding is that yours would have the FoMoCo script similar to what is seen in that image. Next, determine what your engineering number ought to be. The MPC should help you determine that. Finally, make up a mock-stamp and bounce It off members of the community.
I seem to recall there is a thread about somebody making up a starter stamp.

The starter you wish to begin with would have no "engineering numbers" "stamped INTO" the main starter body. Later 67-up uses numbers stamped INTO the starter body INSTEAD of ink-stampings.

Your largest concern would be to locate a nose cone for your application. That item will have a visible engineering number cast into it. The rest of the starter is the same regardless whether it is from a 6-cylinder, 289, 352, 390 and so on. The rest of the starter motor (not the nose cone) doesn't matter if from an automatic or manual transmission either. That is to say that only the nose cone is the only part of the starter that is application-specific. (Well that and the ink-stamped engineering number).
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on April 25, 2018, 07:02:14 AM
While re-reading this thread this morning for discussing another member's need to locate a starter for his 67, though possibly a topic for new discussion, I noticed an unanswered question about the abendix cover, "Bump or No Bump" when did the change-over occur. I did not notice an answer to that question. (See relplies #33-35)

Also, I uploaded here a few shots of my 67's "Finished" starter (any/all critique is welcome for discussion). I need a new nut for the cable still, perhaps I'll remember on my next AMK order ;)
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 66RavenGTCoupeAgain on May 14, 2018, 09:39:17 AM
Hi there,
Is there anyone out there that has the file to get a stamp made for an October 20, 1964 scheduled SJ car? (Really jealous of Richards!  ;) )
I can modify the date if need be as my wife is a graphic designer. At worst , are there any clear images that can be used for this?
I'll be happy to share the file without the date once done if anyone needs it.
Thanks in advance,
Dan.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: 67gtasanjose on May 14, 2018, 09:54:12 AM
Hi there,
Is there anyone out there that has the file to get a stamp made for an October 20, 1964 scheduled SJ car? (Really jealous of Richards!  ;) )
I can modify the date if need be as my wife is a graphic designer. At worst , are there any clear images that can be used for this?
I'll be happy to share the file without the date once done if anyone needs it.
Thanks in advance,
Dan.

I believe your design will be a lot like the image in the initial post (back on first page of this thread). I'd double check what engineering number prefix/suffix would be correct also, as well as a likely build date for the starter, that pre-dates your car by a month or so, I am just saying the "oval script design" is what I think you need.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: preaction on May 14, 2018, 05:38:55 PM
Richard, nice job on the starter.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Bossbill on May 14, 2018, 10:20:39 PM
I noticed when comparing 5 starters for 289s and one for the Boss that all of them had a different style of tin cover.

Is this a good thread to show those details? Or start a new one?

Nice starter Richard.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: J_Speegle on May 14, 2018, 11:14:37 PM
I noticed when comparing 5 starters for 289s and one for the Boss that all of them had a different style of tin cover.

Is this a good thread to show those details? Or start a new one?

I think we bumper into the subject once but we all seemed busy with the main subject at that point. Since rebuilts (which make up a good percentage of what is out there) are often a mixture of parts from different starters I would expect that your going to run across allot of Frankenstein's out there

Think it would be a good subject for a new thread as we collect original examples
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 14, 2018, 11:52:41 PM
C7-B stamp is for 289 auto and C7-D is for 289 4 speed.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Bossbill on April 05, 2019, 01:02:28 PM
I'm assembling my starter right now and I'm using a wrecking yard C3 nose, newer barrel, old plunger cover, non-pop riveted brush holder and old band.
My starter should be, at latest, an early January 1967 date so I feel a stamp would be  proper.
I could not find a barrel that didn't have a D2 or later number so I took the best one (electrically speaking), and sanded the area where the numbers were and used body filler to fill in the engineering numbers.
However, this left the barrel shiny in that area.
The fix was to apply a few coats of black paint, wrap the area in 100 grit paper and lightly tap on the paper with a flat body hammer.
Blow off the "crumbs", apply a light misting of paint and the area now looks like the rest of starter.
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: Bossbill on April 11, 2019, 05:25:28 PM
Removing phillips field coil screws and replacing them with square drive field coil screws can be tedious.
There is a special arbor Ford uses to keep downward pressure on coil screws while turning the screws. I used an impact driver with a very large phillips head socket to take out the phillips coil screws, but had to take an old beat up 3/8 extension and mill down the sides to take out the square drive out of an original barrel.

Even though the milled square drive took out the screws, it left raised edges that wouldn't be present on a new starter.

Off to the lathe to shave the head smooth and keep the circular rings built into the screws.
Results!
Title: Re: Starter Detailing, Original Band Gasket Cardboard Material
Post by: J_Speegle on January 19, 2020, 06:49:05 PM
Just a note for those that found this thread using the search. There are a number of other threads that focus on specific year or a small number of year details that may provide more focused details