ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1964 1/2 - 1965 => Topic started by: CW4macret on January 05, 2018, 05:49:46 PM
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I was looking at the thread below on strut washer because I got a comment on my judge sheet that mine were facing backwards. I just thought it was a mistake because I always have installed the washers so that the cone covered as much rubber as possible ( cone to the inside ). Today I was over by a 66 T code I have waiting restoration and thought I would look at the washer and nut on it’s struts. Well I will be darn, the washer on it have the cone facing away from the rubber. So is this picture correct installation?
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The washers should cup the rubber.
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The washers should cup the rubber.
+1. I think aftermarket kits for some reason will instruct to mount the washers the odd counter intuitive backward way. That might be one reason many get reversed.
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+2 Agree the aftermarket instructions and pictures of cars on the internet with them have lead many to make the incorrect choice
Reposting some 66 San Jose examples - sorry the first post were of 65 Dearborn - was focused on that period while looking for pictures for another post today
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-060118000046.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-060118000805.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-060118000032.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-060118000748.jpeg)
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Both of my San Jose cars have never had them removed as far as I know and they face out. Dec. 1, 65.on T-code, one A-code. I suspect it was at the whim of the person installing and which plant.
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Both of my San Jose cars have never had them removed as far as I know and they face out. Dec. 1, 65.on T-code, one A-code. I suspect it was at the whim of the person installing and which plant.
Have never seen original San Jose washers installed like that and not likely that all of the inspectors would have missed that at one of the stations. After looking at 10's of thousands of examples I would believe they have been removed and installed that way. Does the washers have the lip around the edge like originals? Pictures shows a reflection on one that makes it appear that it was zinc but maybe its just the flash. Maybe they were changed out when they swapped out some of your other front suspension pieces shown in your picture
Easy enough to post a hand full of examples from the same time period and plant as your car but that would take up off of thread slightly. Guessing your car is in the 6R143xxx range?
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Both of my San Jose cars have never had them removed as far as I know and they face out. Dec. 1, 65.on T-code, one A-code. I suspect it was at the whim of the person installing and which plant.
If that is the case how can you explain how many of us that work on SJ cars typically see them cupped in? It seems more logical that the contour of the washer would follow the contour of the rubber bushing rather then the exact opposite. The assembly line manual for 6cyl ,V8 drum and V8 Disc brake illustrations are illustrated to indicate cupped in installation. I only checked the 65 shop manual but the illustration in suspension section 3-2 under " front suspension-typical"is cupped in also .I suspect the other years manuals follow suite. It would seem given the obvious factory engineering direction plus the many first hand observations that many of us have seems to indicate that it would be more of a mistake type anomaly rather then a common practice whim of the person installing If they are installed in reverse .
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Easy enough to post a hand full of examples from the same time period and plant as your car but that would take up off of thread slightly. Guessing your car is in the 6R143xxx range?
They are both 6R0_1384XX. I just went into the garage. The convertible does not appear to have been changed and as far as I can tell the washers and nuts are correct based on previous threads. It does appear the bushings on my GT have been replaced with poly bushing some time ago. I have only owned them both for 20+years so anything is possible in the 20+ years before that I guess. :)
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+2 Agree the aftermarket instructions and pictures of cars on the internet with them have lead many to make the incorrect choice
Some pictures of unrestored 65 Dearborn cars to illustrate
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-050118185141.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-050118185159.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-050118185233.jpeg)
The strut rod washers don't look phosphate and oil to me.
Jim
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The strut rod washers don't look phosphate and oil to me.
Jim
Sorry should have posted 66 San Jose examples. Changed them out for 66 San Jose examples ;)
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66 san jose washers phos and oil or zinc plated?
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66 san jose washers phos and oil or zinc plated?
Phosphate/oil
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Phosphate/oil
+1 :)
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I assume these washers are aftermarket and the nuts original?
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I assume these washers are aftermarket and the nuts original?
Yes those after market washers and the instructions stamped into them are a example of why some are installed differently then assemblyline.
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Yes those after market washers and the instructions stamped into them are a example of why some are installed differently then assemblyline.
+1 the stamping Shouts aftermarket :)
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Gents,
Pic 1: Take a look at my bushing/washers. I don't think these are original but please check.
Pic 2: Am I correct here in terms of the assembly?
If these bushings/washers are incorrect, can you identify the correct part number for the bushing and washers for my strut rods?
Thanks everyone!
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incorrect washers. originals were not marked in any manner. had more of a flat shape. a search here should turn up pics of correct parts.
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Read somewhere that it seems as though some aftermarket manufactures were perhaps using a more of a domed shape to allow for more travel. As previously suggested the originals were more flat. I believe washer direction was just discussed here not long ago.
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For future viewers of this post:
Charles Turner was quoted in another post with the following information: "The strut rods have no dating or engineering numbers on them. The only mark is a narrow raised line, which indicates that that side gets mounted pointing down. There is usually a yellow paint daub near the mark. The washers would be phosphate/oil, the big locking nut, typically cadmium or zinc."
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Correct
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In your original post (second picture) the correct washer orientation is the one that you have marked "not correct".
Also, looking at the integrity of your strut rod(s)-you have "significant" rust-effected areas that should be of concern to you IMO. I know that you are trying to keep as much of the car's originality as you can be these rods have seen better days.
Remember, your life could depend on it.
Frank
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oldguy makes an excellent point. find some better rods & DO NOT use polyurethane bushings. i have replaced rods that have broken in that area.
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I believe the marked washers in the first post are Moog parts.
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There have been a number of threads on the subject. Did search not work for you or did the words you used not turn up the answers you were looking for?
Know for sure there are pictures of the original, order of assembly and so on. Really don't need another thread for the same old things.
That strut rod you show IMHO should not be reused especially if your planning on driving the car on the street !!!
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Correct
Thanks for the information. I have a set of these on order from Fred Ballard now.
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In your original post (second picture) the correct washer orientation is the one that you have marked "not correct".
Also, looking at the integrity of your strut rod(s)-you have "significant" rust-effected areas that should be of concern to you IMO. I know that you are trying to keep as much of the car's originality as you can be these rods have seen better days.
Remember, your life could depend on it.
Frank
Frank,
So if my second picture in the original post marked "not correct" IS in fact correct, why does the washer say "this side toward rubber"?
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originals were never marked. that should answer your question.
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Frank,
So if my second picture in the original post marked "not correct" IS in fact correct, why does the washer say "this side toward rubber"?
Believe he is trying to communicate that the direction of the cup of the washer is correct though the washers themselves may not (should not have printing on them) be correct
I guess you missed this thread in your search
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=17205.msg108127#msg108127
Will merge the two
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A few weeks after this posted I was talking with my Uncle, He gave me my first ride in a Mustang in 1966, anyway I asked about this and he told me it was rumored and many believed the car would handle better if you flipped the washer around and allow for more flex in the bushing.
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In reality, more "flex" in the strut rod bushings would make the car handle worse do to erratic caster. The claim that eurathane bushings promote better handling characteristics stems from the fact that caster is maintained more precisely throughout all driving conditions. I'm NOT promoting the use of eurathane bushings (they will loosen the fillings in your teeth)-just using them as an example of "less flex" in the strut rod bushings.
Better containment of the strut rod bushings (by installing the cupped washers the way that they were designed to be used-"cupping" the bushings) also enhances tire life.
Frank
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This topic just came up on another Forum. I have always been told the cups were reversed which seems incorrect, but the consensus here seems to be that they were installed cupping the washers.
The following instructions were posted by a specialist in suspensions.
https://www.vintage-mustang.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.vintage-mustang.com/attachments/6566-strut-rod-bushing-jpg.837243/ (https://www.vintage-mustang.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.vintage-mustang.com/attachments/6566-strut-rod-bushing-jpg.837243/)
He believes they are the original MOOG instructions. It would seem that the aftermarket changed the orientation from the very beginning. According to him:
The original design was purely rubber, of not particularly high durometer.
Moog is an aftermarket company well known for it's "problem solver" methods on suspension.
The steel-lined strut rod bushings from Moog are a molded rubber outside of higher durometer
rubber than stock and have steel sleeves inside. Way, way stiffer a design than the FoMoCo effort.....
Apparently with the stiffer design they flipped the washer to get the right amount of movement in the strut rod.
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This topic just came up on another Forum. I have always been told the cups were reversed which seems incorrect, but the consensus here seems to be that they were installed cupping the washers........................................................
Here are washers and bushing on unrestored cars. This is the only way I've seen original installed one thousands of them. Guess at the other site they were discussing aftermarket/replacement assemblies
https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=17205.msg108127#msg108127 (https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=17205.msg108127#msg108127)
Original 65-66 versions do not have the cupped washers like aftermarket ones like we see on replacements and original is what our focus is here on this site
Original bushings for the early cars were not shaped like the ones in the drawing you attached either where the rear and forwards ones are reversible.
Hope this clarifies the details
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Thanks, that is what I suspected, So many have been replaced with the newer design, I don?t think I have Ever seen an original set installed.
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+1. I think aftermarket kits for some reason will instruct to mount the washers the odd counter intuitive backward way. That might be one reason many get reversed.
Watching an episode of Garage Squad tonight and this came up. Apparently a couple of the guys used to work on semi's and the truck shocks they replaced use the same metal washer with the "'This side toward rubber" which is the correct way to install them with shocks. That same company supplies the same washers for aftermarket strut bushings stamped the exact same way.