ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Parts => Topic started by: midlife on October 10, 2011, 09:55:10 PM
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OK, guys (and gals)...anyone out there know who manufactured wiring looms for Ford? As best as I can tell, there was probably only one manufacturer during any one year, as there are no substantial differences in connector moldings, wire colors, etc. to the trained eye. I'm just curious who the vendor was.
As an aside, I recently ran across a manufacturer repair before the harness was delivered to Ford. The ACC line running from the fuse box to the ignition was clipped as it exited the tape near each end, leaving a small exposed piece of wire. Another complete line was then installed. How do I know this was a vendor repair? There was a harness sticker on both the inner and outer wraps of tape. Surely Ford did not put the stickers on each harness as it was delivered to the plant.
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I have seen differences in the 67-68 harness used at the SJ plants the plastic anchors are differant than the Dearborn and NJ plants. Leading me to believe that there may have been a California supplier. Marty
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Not sure if there was one source. We see the different ways the ends were wrapped and this may indicate different suppliers or even multiple sub contractors for these.
One story I would also offer. In the mid 70's the family took one of those family vacations which took us across the AZ desert. Dad recalled (and reminded me 20 years ago) that at one of the gas stations we stopped at way out in no where and a jig set up in the service area where they were assembling wire looms for power seats on that years T birds and Lincolns. Doubt they were doing all of them for Ford - more likely a sub for another contractor
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Seen 'CCC' markings on some original looms. Also have seen 'Made in Canada' on some original alternator wiring looms.
Most of them I have seen just have a FoMoCo wrap label with an engineering number and sometimes 'SX' on the label.
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IMHO we will likely find many different markings which may relate to different suppliers and or subs if we look across all the classic years and the three plants
Looking through one group of pictures I have with wiring labels I found the following in addition to the typical dates, FoMoCo and engineering numbers
SX-(small) w
SX-(small) R
SX-(small) A
SX-(small) L
(small) P (then large) SX
PAP
WCC
CCC in an oval
RMTE shaped into a right facing arrow (? on spelling)
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IMHO we will likely find many different markings which may relate to different suppliers and or subs if we look across all the classic years and the three plants
Looking through one group of pictures I have with wiring labels I found the following in addition to the typical dates, FoMoCo and engineering numbers
SX-(small) w
SX-(small) R
SX-(small) A
SX-(small) L
(small) P (then large) SX
PAP
WCC
CCC in an oval
RMTE shaped into a right facing arrow (? on spelling)
Out of all of those WCC (Whitaker Cable Corporation) now defunct was the only one I recognized. They were a Ford OEM based in Kansas City. Bob
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A few years ago I was talking to Ken Rubin, the owner of Alloy Metal in New York. His company makes reproduction wire products and while we talked he told me that he had a print for the odd harness I needed because when his father owned the company they were a contractor for Ford Motor Company and had supplied Ford with the very harness I needed. He did construct the harness and it was an exact duplicate of the needed part. I have no idea what ID Alloy Metal Co. used on their production but I am certain that a company as large as Ford would have redundant suppliers of many products they used. Production of autos could not be stopped because some small company had a fire, an untimely death of the owner, or labor trouble, etc. Ken has passed on so he cannot help with this but his company still makes some of the best reproduction wire products available. The person running the business now may have some insight into how the Alloy Metal Products were tagged before sending to Ford to be used in production or service parts.
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Ken was an asset to the hobby, it's sad he is no longer with us. He had a pretty good sense of humor too!
James Thayer was Ken's business partner and from what I understand, runs Alloy Metal Co. now.
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Very Interesting. I've now run across well over 400 harnesses and most don't have stickers left on them. I've seen some variation in the color molex plastic connectors, and some discrepancies in the blue/red lamp wire colors (bright blue vs. light blue), but that's about it. I don't pay attention to details of tape wrap directions, though.
Thanks for the info, folks.
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I have also found the Name Riverside molded into some Plug connectors and also Xmii on Connectors and on Tags.
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I tried one of the Alloy Metal harness's for my 69 BOSS. Advertised as and exact reproduction. I ended up sending it back. The quality was nice enough, but 'EXACT details', no way. Some connectors in no way duplicated physical attributes of the original connectors (e.g. headlight connectors were much lighter duty on the reproduction loom), though functionally interchangeable. Other connectors looked like perfect clones. Where there was a branch in the loom, the original loom has a special molded plastic fitting to emphasize the branch, the reproduction loom had nothing, other than the tape wrapping to make the branch demarcation. A functional replacement loom, yes it is, an exact reproduction, no way.
The after market manufacturers will make and get away with what ever the buyer is willing to accept or not want to know. Not enough complaints filled IMHO.
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Alloy Metal products make the best stuff I've ever seen for Mustangs....Thumbs up here.
Tony K.
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I tried one of the Alloy Metal harness's for my 69 BOSS. Advertised as and exact reproduction. I ended up sending it back. The quality was nice enough, but 'EXACT details', no way. Some connectors in no way duplicated physical attributes of the original connectors (e.g. headlight connectors were much lighter duty on the reproduction loom), though functionally interchangeable. Other connectors looked like perfect clones. Where there was a branch in the loom, the original loom has a special molded plastic fitting to emphasize the branch, the reproduction loom had nothing, other than the tape wrapping to make the branch demarcation. A functional replacement loom, yes it is, an exact reproduction, no way.
The after market manufacturers will make and get away with what ever the buyer is willing to accept or not want to know. Not enough complaints filled IMHO.
I take it that was a headlight harness? There are no special provisions in an underdash harness for branches.
Both OEM and reproduction have their places. Don't get me started on how badly the OEM harnesses were made...
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That is correct. Headlight harness w/o tach.
I thought this section the forum was out there for opinions, good or bad, so I expressed mine.
I have several other parts I can comment on as well.
My point here was 'Exact Reproduction' claims are sometimes not completely true, even though sometimes the part is pretty good (or better) and 'close' to but not like exact.
I realize Ford had more than one subcontractor making the harnesses, and if you lined all of them up I am sure there would be subtle differences in the produced loom. IMO, this plastic piece that had a purpose that I remarked about, as being non existent in this 'exact reproduction', I think is a significant departure from what was intended.
Anyway, after seeing what an exact reproduction looks like, I simply decided to clean up my harness and re tape it.
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My wife's late uncle was the unofficial head dude at Riverside in Dearborn on Oakman south of Michigan Ave. He was the man that opened the gate and doors in the morning and then closed the place down in the evening. He did what ever it was that was needed. Sweep, pick up parts, deliver parts and what ever the owner or boss needed. From time to time he would bring me rolls of tape that had the Ford part numbers all printed on them. It was a large roll, if you could imagine masking tape with a smaller center opening. I guess this was stuff that they had completed building and were getting rid of the old numbers. He told me that he could get me anything made that I needed for my early interest in Mustangs. He would also mention that he could get me spools of wire and wiring harnesses that were over built. I knew they were a supplier to the DAP (Dearborn Assembly Plant or B Building). He thought the tape was the cats whiskers. Unfortunately, it was a very low grade adhesive and had limited use. Wish I would have saved a couple dozen of those rolls.
He became ill in 1975 and we lost him that year. The building that was used by Riverside went through a bunch of uses. No longer a Riverside facility. The last I remember the building was the administration for Detroit College of Business. Which is now Davenport University.
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Was that breakout a squarish feature that passes wires through it? The best way I can describe it is that it was a molding applied after the wires were laid in place and has an "X" feature on all four sides.
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I would like to find a 1969 NON TACH owner in need of a underdash and headlight harness (that was NOS before installing in my 428scj last year) !
EVERYONE is telling me I need to put the tach back in the car ! I have obtained two clusters and a RATTY HARNESS (I'm not sure I can use) I have hesitated taking out the NOS harness as it was over $700 and the car is finished. I'm not sure I want to do the work, not sure I want "patched up used" wire (that I have) BUT would consider selling or trading for another . (My guess it it will take at least two to make a good one)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/svo2scj/100_4065.jpg)
Placed here to hear more on your thoughts, options or others with parts/needs.
Mark
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How about leaving your car together and adding a NOS hood tach and enjoy the benefits of full instrumentation?
It's so much work to change those harnesses.
Obviously $700 for a NOS non-tach harness is considerably cheaper than a NOS tach harness too.
The hood tach should set you back less than $700.
One went on my local Craigslist for $600.
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What gloss level is the non-sticky wire harness vinyl on 67 Mustangs supposed to be?
All of the repro harness extensions (coil, temp, o/p) have really shiny harness vinyl.
The old harness vinyl as it exists today on my car is almost indistinguishable from 3M 33+ sticky tape.
After unrolling some of my old harness vinyl it measured out at 1", so I bought some generic harness tape and it's as shiny as the repop stuff.
After all of these years it's possible the vinyl lost a lot of its shine due to blush.
Is it supposed to be shiny or is the 3m 33+ color correct?
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What gloss level is the non-sticky wire harness vinyl on 67 Mustangs supposed to be?
Don't think anyone knows for sure what untouched assembly lines out surface wrap looked for sure but the protected under dash finish on a very well preserved unrestored car may be a good indicator. Looks like it was fairly shinny/glossy - not bad after 50 years
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-031117210144.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-031117210200.jpeg)
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Just an observation after looking at probably 2-3000 harnesses from engine, underdash, etc. Most of the factory wrapping tape fades with time, and often gets stained due to exposure to tobacco, the environment, heat, etc. Some factory tape after 50+ years appears dirty, and when cleaned with the strongest solvent, appears shiny when wet but dries to the same dirty appearance.
The cleanest, freshest factory tape I've seen is a tad less shiny than the 33+. When I re-wrap a harness in 33+, it is obvious that it is a re-wrap, as it is too shiny throughout, and doesn't look factory to me. The same goes to the reproduction harnesses: a tad too shiny. I could be biased, though, in that 99.5% of what I see is 50+ years old and it's hard for plastics to retain its original finish after all those years.
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Another famous fuchsia pink arrow! Thanks Jeff.
Compared to my new roll, that is semi gloss and mine is full gloss.
Time to go shopping for the right stuff (NPD perhaps) and some white 3M Scotloks (another story).
Randy -- I'm unsure as to what to do with this harness as it highly visible in the engine compartment.
Re-wrap it in no-glue vinyl so it has the same sheen everywhere?
It's odd. I took the engine o/p, temp, and coil harness apart on the Shelby as there is 3 wires in and two out. Plus it was in sad shape. Two things struck me. I couldn't tell the sticky tape apart from wrap. And SA took the harness apart, snipped the o/p idiot light wire and simply wrapped the thing back with tape. We don't need no stinking light when we have a real gauge!
By the way, I noticed in Jeff's pic that he has cloth tape on the mid span of his loose wires coming out of the main bundle. I noticed every loose wire I have is normal semi-gloss tape. I ASSume this is a plant/year thing.
Is that spelled out in the Library?
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Another famous fuchsia pink arrow! Thanks Jeff.
Compared to my new roll, that is semi gloss and mine is full gloss.
Time to go shopping for the right stuff (NPD perhaps) and some white 3M Scotloks (another story).
Randy -- I'm unsure as to what to do with this harness as it highly visible in the engine compartment.
Re-wrap it in no-glue vinyl so it has the same sheen everywhere?
It's odd. I took the engine o/p, temp, and coil harness apart on the Shelby as there is 3 wires in and two out. Plus it was in sad shape. Two things struck me. I couldn't tell the sticky tape apart from wrap. And SA took the harness apart, snipped the o/p idiot light wire and simply wrapped the thing back with tape. We don't need no stinking light when we have a real gauge!
By the way, I noticed in Jeff's pic that he has cloth tape on the mid span of his loose wires coming out of the main bundle. I noticed every loose wire I have is normal semi-gloss tape. I ASSume this is a plant/year thing.
Is that spelled out in the Library?
SA did not take the engine gauge feed harness apart. They simply snipped the oil idiot light wire where it came out of the existing harness and sometimes but a wrap of electrical or friction tape to cover the snipped wire end and sometimes not.
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By the way, I noticed in Jeff's pic that he has cloth tape on the mid span of his loose wires coming out of the main bundle. I noticed every loose wire I have is normal semi-gloss tape. I ASSume this is a plant/year thing.
Is that spelled out in the Library?
We've discussed in in a couple of threads the way the ends of the looms (adhesive tape, cloth tape or sealant) IMHO use depended on who made the loom and there were likely hundreds of sub contractors making these in garages, basements or who knows where across the country. Told this sorry before but as a kid we ran across a gas station out in the desert on a family vacation. The family was putting together the wire looms for power seats for some Ford model in about 1969. They had a jig that help the ends and plugs as they laid out the wires and wrapped them
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Bob -- I took a loop to the factory loom wrap and see that they did start at the terminal end and worked toward the molded plug end. So the harness was not opened, as you state.
On mine it appears that 5" of the snipped o/p wire was beyond the end of the loom wrap, but there was 6" of black tape wrapped 6".
Normal?
I did find a brand of loom tape that matches the sheen of the old tape, as used by my nearby restoration shop. It looks very good next to original 67 harnesses.
It's Elliott ET301 black. It's the right width and sheen. I found 2 rolls for $12.95 on ebay.
I also found some 3M Scotchlok 564 white connectors and hope to have all of this by next week.