ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Processes, Products & Techniques => Topic started by: jwc66k on April 22, 2012, 02:08:59 PM
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I've been phosphating for over twenty years and this is what it entails. There's a lot of items involved in the phosphate and oil process. Remember, you are playing around with acid.
1. It only works on steel and iron parts so don't try it on aluminum, brass, copper or non-metallic items.
2. Items to be phosphated must be clean. More on that later.
3. Use only stainless steel tanks and tools. One exception is the rinse tank.
4. I preheat three gallons of water in my kitchen and pour what I need into the stainless tank heated by propane.
5. Store unused chemicals in HDPE containers.
6. I found that air drying works best, in temperatures above 72F, in the sun and with a bit of breeze prior to the oil step.
7. I don't recomend drying in an oven as it leads to rust forming. It may be a matter of timing, but air drying works.
Tools - (see pictures)
1. Stove. I like propane. Electric stoves don't seem to last, don't produce enough heat and are too small. You need at least 180F water to phosphate.
2. Tanks - All stainless steel. You can get them from restaurant supply stores, Wall-Mart types or e-bay. My rectanglular tank is big enough to do a hood hinge (12 3/4 X 11 5/8 X 3 7/8), but you have to "splash" the spring retaining arm. The fish poaching tank (19 1/2 X 6 3/4 X 4) works well on long items, center links, strut rods, etc, but you have to swap ends of the item after 45 seconds to a minute. The round pan is for metal blackening and the sauce pan (stainless) is for small batches, mostly nuts and bolts.
3. Tools - Goodwill. I got the long hook from a hardware store. It is stainless (all stainless is expensive). It was 36 inches lon and I cut it in half and promptly lost one piece. Bend as necessary.
4. Metal blackening - Eastwood. Just get the metal blackening solution as the rest of the stuff is a joke. Well, the HDPE container is nice to have.
5. Rinse - A number 3 wash tub works. I also use a plastic bucket for small batches.
Not shown:
- the phosphoric acid concentrate I use. More on that later.
- a 1 cup Pyrex measuring cup, to get the correct mixture from the phosphating concentrate. More on that later.
- a thermometer - a deep fat fryer type.
- stopwatch. It's important.
- a large 5 gallon plastic bucket (paint, dry wall, dish soap types) for used phosphate water. After the water cools and I don't have any small batches to do, I pour the water into a bucket with a couple of scoops of Borax to neutralize the acid.
- neoprene gloves.
- hooks made from coat hangers to air dry items.
- shop towels.
Jim
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Part two - Chemicals -
Metal blackening acid: Eastwood www.eastwood.com Metal Black Concentrate replacement to get a dark looking part prior to phosphating. Mix 8oz concentrate and one quart water (Eastwood is very lax on their instructions) in a HDPE (High Density PolyEthylene, a number 2 in the recycle triangle) container with a HDPE lid, then pour what you need into a stainless steel mixing bowl. When you are done, you can pour the Eastwood black solution back in its container for reuse several times. Don't try any metal lids or aluminum foil in the lid, they corrode away. I used a glass container with a plastic lid for a while, don't bother. Rinse the mixing bowl in the rinse water when everything is done. The entire kit is a waste of time and money, it don't work and looks terrible.
(I left several bolts in this solution for an hour just to see what would happen. After phosphating I was surprised to find that after they were submerged in water for several days they looked great and did not rust. I intend on repeating the procedure.)
Phosphoric acid: E-Phos 630 for the phosphoric finish, available from: EPI www.epi.com There are other sources. I got mine thru the plating shop that does my clear and gold zinc plating. I don't know if EPI sells to the general public but they sell in bulk as in a case with 12 bottles. I don't remember the cost but my plater sold me two quarts and kept the rest as he was thinking of doing some phosphating for a customer. As it is a concentrate, I use 1 to 3 oz per gallon of water depending on what final results I desire. The mixture must be heated to over 180F to "cook" items properly.
I used another product called "Rust-Mort 69504" (the 4 equals a quart) from SEM Products http://semproducts.com/ It's available from Amazon and many auto body shop supply stores. I "adapted" its use because the main ingredient is phosphoric acid. Again, I use 1 to 3 oz per gallon of water depending on what final results I desire. The only drawback is a fine lite layer of crystals that sometimes appears from the "cooking" process.
Rinse water: right from the tap.
Oil: New motor oil, used motor oil, transmission fluid, WD-40. This is the tricky part.
- I tried heating new motor oil to 400-450F and succeeded in stinking up the neighborhood. Air temp clean oil seems to work sometimes if left parts are left for a day, but a hood hinge requires about three gallons of oil.
- Used motor oil has acid in it so you are defeating your goal. I've read that others use different "shades" of used to get the desired dark finish.
- Transmission fluid was suggested but I haven't tried it.
- WD-40. It works.
Arm and Hammer Borax laundry soap: used to neutralize the leftover phosphoric acid solution after it cools. A cup per gallon of water solution should do the trick. Let the water evaporate and then throw what remains in a garbage bag and then into the garbage.
Jim
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Sounds complicated, dangerous, messy and expensive, I think I will just send my parts out for phosphating to someone like you that has experience. Do you offer this service or just do your own parts?
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Sounds complicated, dangerous, messy and expensive, I think I will just send my parts out for phosphating to someone like you that has experience. Do you offer this service or just do your own parts?
Phosphating is about one of the simplest coatings to work with. I wouldn't consider it dangerous at all.
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Good write-up. The only thing I would add is to make sure the parts are dry before coating in oil or whatever. I usually blow-dry with compressed air before putting in an oil bucket. I just use a straight 30W motor oil, new, nothing fancy and soak the parts for 24 hrs. What's nice about soaking in oil is that it penetrates the phosphate surface. Once I've gotten all the oil off with paper towels, I let them sit out for a while. Can wash them with dish-washing detergent, which removes oil from the surface so it doesn't attract dust.
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Part three - Hardware Restoration - Preliminary
This applies to nuts, bolts, screws, washers and other small steel parts like clips and brackets. My intent was to do a lot of items with a minimum of hands-on labor as I had 4 Mustangs at the time.
1 I got a five gallon bucket of Mustang parts from an auto dismantler about every other month for the last 20 years. As I empty the bucket, I sort hardware into screws and bolts, nuts and washers, special parts, non-metallic parts and everything else. In this and every following step, if the part is broken, threads damaged, too much corrosion or beyond use – I toss it.
2 Soak all hardware in solvent such as Berrymans B12 for a week. I use coffee cans with holes punched in the bottoms and a small chain as a handle in a paint can, with a lid, with the Berrymans. I also have a 5 gallon metal bucket with Berrymans to strip paint from medium size items. Keep a lid on it.
3 After a week in the solvent and while still in the coffee can, rinse in soapy water, as in a deep sink where the laundry water goes using the laundry water.
4 Empty can on a shop towel and allow to air dry for a couple of days. The items will be dirty but the paint and crud will be soft. Put more hardware in the can and return to the Berrymans.
5 I use a two drum rock tumbler (Thumbler’s Tumblers - got the idea from my Postman) using the metal filings from brake shoes and rotors as a cleaning (abrasive) media, to clean most of the crud and rust off the parts. Your friendly local tire store is the source of the filings. Don’t put wet, moist or damp items in with the metal filings, everything will rust. It takes between two and five days at 24 hours a day to tumble parts clean. A week’s worth of tumbling won’t harm most metal parts. Use a straining screen (TP Tools) to separate the filings and hardware when done. I get about four loads (a months use) then toss the filings. On clips with the plastic/rubber insulation you may have to remove the plastic by hand and then return to the tumbler.
6 Dip tumbled items in kerosene to remove filing dust and to give a protective coating to prevent rust. Do not use paint thinner or gasoline.
7 Allow to air dry for a day or two.
8 Sort into containers for whatever you want to do next, phosphate and oil, paint, clear zinc plate, gold zinc plate or cadmium plate.
9 An Eastwood Vibratory Tumbler is an asset. I use TSP (Tri-Sodium Phosphate available from Home Depot) and water with the Eastwood green pyramids.
10 What doesn’t work “well” is a wire wheel. It’s time consuming and will tear up your fingers.
Sources:
-TP Tools & Equipment www.tptools.com
Bead blasting cabinets, blasting media, restoration tools, paint
- Eastwood www.eastwood.com
Bead blasting cabinets, blasting media, restoration tools, paint, vibratory tumblers, chemicals
- Thumbler’s Tumblers http://thumlerstumbler.com/
Rock tumblers.
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Good write-up. The only thing I would add is to make sure the parts are dry before coating in oil or whatever. I usually blow-dry with compressed air before putting in an oil bucket. I just use a straight 30W motor oil, new, nothing fancy and soak the parts for 24 hrs. What's nice about soaking in oil is that it penetrates the phosphate surface. Once I've gotten all the oil off with paper towels, I let them sit out for a while. Can wash them with dish-washing detergent, which removes oil from the surface so it doesn't attract dust.
I ain't done yet.
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Hardware Preparation - Final - Phosphate and Oil, Zinc Plating, Painting
1 Bead blast everything. Use glass beads. I like TP Scatblast media made from crushed glass. It's more abrasive which saves time. There are other media: round glass beads, walnut shells, plastic, steel grit, aluminum oxide, soda, etc. You need a bead blasting cabinet to do any of this. I got my cabinet from TP Tools over 20 years ago and it shows its age. Eastwood has them as well. Mine is big enough to do 15 inch rims. I tape a 33 gallon black plastic trash bag over the open door to blast sway bars. If you do get a cabinet you must get a vacuum system otherwise you won't be able to see what you are blasting because of the resulting dust and the used media needs to get tossed. Glass beads are not considered a hazard (TP provides info about that) but what you blast off may be. A general use shop vac lasts about a week before the bushings get wore out from the dust so don't bother. A large compressor is needed to provide the air. Mine is a 6hp 33 gallon direct drive Craftsman. It's the third one I've owned and each one was an upgrade to a larger size. I sold the others to grateful neighbors with kid's bicycle tires, soccer balls and footballs to air up.
2 To hold screws and bolts use plumbers tape. (See picture.) That's the perforated one inch wide metal strip that holds water pipes to floor framing. The large holes will retain 5/16 dia screws, bolts and studs, the smaller hole will hold 1/4 inch dia items. You may have to tap the holes to insert the items. I have about a dozen well used strips about 8 to 10 inches long. Start blasting the head of the bolt/screw first then under the head and star or disc washer. After you bead blast and while still in the cabinet, give each screw a couple of turns inward and that will expose the area covered by the metal strip. Don't forget the bottom end.
3 For 3/8 inch and larger bolts, hold by hand.
4 Use metal shower rings/clips for anything with a hole in it, washers, nuts, clips, springs, etc. Leave them on the rings for phosphating, remove for zinc plating. (See picture.)
5 For smaller parts (like 6-32X3/8 screws), use a homemade container made from metal screen with some heavier mesh backing. It may not last long so be careful. TP has a "Bolt Basket" that works but real small items tend to fly out. For one or two items, try a small electrical alligator clip about two or three inches long. Turn parts around to finish.
6 For phosphating, do not touch cleaned parts without latex (or other types) gloves.
7 For zinc plating, you can handle everything sparingly. My plater cleans everything I send to him in an acid bath to remove any residual oil like from your hands prior to any other steps.
Sources:
-TP Tools & Equipment www.tptools.com
Bead blasting cabinets, blasting media, restoration tools, paint
- Eastwood www.eastwood.com
Bead blasting cabinets, blasting media, restoration tools, paint, vibratory tumblers, chemicals
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Phosphating -
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Procedure
Note: Don't phosphate anything that is greasy or has not been bead blasted. I've found that bead blasted items can be done a couple of days in advance and still come out OK as long as they are kept dry..
Actual steps: metal blackening (if required); phosphating; rinse; dry; oil.
1 Heat water in a large enough pot to provide more than you need as you may need to top off phosphating pan as the water boils off. My large pan takes 2 1/2 gallons so I heat 3 to 3 1/2 gallons. I usually do this on my kitchen cooktop in a big clean pot. The poacher is about 2 1/4 gallons full.
2 Get all equipment ready: propane tank, propane stove, stainless steel pan for phosphating, stainless steel pan for metal blackening, stainless steel perforated strainers (one for parts from metal blackening to phosphating pan, one for pan to rinse water), stainless hooks, Pyrex glass measuring cup, thermometer, stopwatch, drying towels, rinse water pan and water, drying hooks (coat hangers cut and bent), phosphoric acid concentrate, metal blackening concentrate, oil, oil bath table covered with newspapers, evaporation bucket, baking soda.
3 When the water is hot, pour into phosphating pan on propane stove, light stove, measure phosphoric acid concentrate. I use 1 to 3 ounces of concentrate per gallon of water, usually starting at a small ratio.
4 When the water in the tank is boiling you are ready to "cook" parts. Use the thermometer to verify the temperature. If the temperature drops below 180F, stop and allow to temperature rise to boiling (or at least 200F). This is important. I use a wooden cover on the pan while heating.
5 Start with items that do not require the blackening step or items that should have a natural steel look. Do items that need to be blackened last. The phosphating tank will become "contaminated" with the blackening solution items if you do them first.
6 Timing:
- Natural looking steel - two to three minutes in the phosphating bath.
- Large bolts - four to six minutes in the phosphating bath.
- Small bolts, nuts, washers and screws - one to two minutes in the metal blackening solution and then eight to ten minutes in the phosphating bath. Any more than ten minutes may leave crystals on the items' surface.
- Dip in rinse water for 15 to 20 seconds.
- Air dry until no trace of water is seen.
7 Do small batches, a single item up to maybe 20 screws per batch. The most items I've "cooked" in one afternoon session were about 400, mostly screws, bolts and nuts. Don't touch items with bare hands, use a shop towel or vinyl gloves. Stir items in pan as bubbles will form and stirring will allow bubbles to escape. Large items (hood hinges) need to be turned a couple of times for the same reason. Long items will require a fish poacher and may require lifting out "cooked" end and dipping the other end in swapping ends about every 30 to 45 seconds for three or four minutes to get an even finish.
8 When item have "cooked" for enough time, scoop out and rinse.
9 Place rinsed items on hooks or on drying towels.
10 When items are dry, oil. I found WD-40 works very well. SAE 20 works but can get expensive.
11 When you are done, allow the phosphating bath to cool. Pour leftovers into a HDPE plastic bucket and add a cup of baking soda per gallon. This should neutralize the acid. Allow water to evaporate then scrape out residue or toss the entire bucket.
12 Clean metal blackening pan, phosphating pan and tools in the rinse water. The metal blackening pan will probably turn black but don't be concerned. The grey-white residue in the phosphating pans will come out if lightly bead blasted. Do not use baking soda or laundry soap to clean pans or tools as they might have residual alkali that will slow or stop the acid from working the next time you use them.
Safety
The acid baths are diluted enough that if you get splashed, soap and water will neutralize them. This does not apply to the concentrates. Use the borax to neutralize spills.
It is hot water, so be careful.
Keep kids and animals away. Wives or girlfriends are encouraged to bring adult beverages while working.
Jim
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Phosphating
Tips and Tricks
I found that small items rolled off the strainer so I put a couple of stainless steel screws and nuts at the handle end to keep them in the strainer.
If I have more small screws or bolts to do, I'll save some phosphating bath in a covered stainless steel sauce pan for use later (like the next day).
Tie rod ends and center links, items with a ball stud. Remove rubber cover from ball stud and clean the item with a solvent. Scrape, dab or whatever you need to do to remove as much grease from the ball stud as possible. Clean with a solvent again and when dry, using Permatex Ultra Blue No Leak Silicone Gasket sealant (the blue stuff), seal the ball stud. Use a lot. Allow sealant to dry at least three weeks. Bead blast item being careful to not disturb sealant. As most of these items are natural and some are longer than the rectangle pan, use the poacher for a short cooking time. Cook, rinse, air dry and oil per steps above. After a couple of days, remove the sealant using a razor blade, wire brush and/or wire wheel. Set the item in the hot sun with ball stud up so heated grease is forced out along with air bubbles. Rotate the ball stud to facilitate bubbles getting out of the gap. What also may come out is rusty crud. Add heavy oil, 20W or 30W, to the gap around the ball stud. When the item cools off at night the oil will be drawn in. Don’t leave the item out in any rain. Do this daily for a couple of weeks until the rusty crud stops coming out. The entire process may take over a month. Remember, a NOS center link is over $100.00 and NOS tie rod ends are over $40.00, if you can find them.
Thanks goes to Rich Ciaffredo, a MCA Gold Card Judge, who got me started phosphating a long time ago, and to Charles Turner, a MCA Gold Card Judge, who gave me some critical tips.
Samples:
1 and 2 - Rear bumper bolts.
3 thru 8 - Fender and other 5/16 bolts
Special tools:
9 - The tumbler with strainer screen.
10 thru 12 - Something I made from a dip basket, funnel and a ABS pipe coupling (it fit, that's why), assembled, and with a blasting nozzle inserted into the funnel. You place small parts in the basket, assemble it and hold it up side down so the glass beads blasting up cleans and gravity returns the parts to the narrow end. After about 3 or 4 minutes check the results. Repeat as necessary. Remember, I was going for m inimum effort on a lot of items.
13 - A TP blast basket in the back, and a basket I made from a small dip basket, tin can and a clamp. I wore it out.
Jim
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Some more samples:
1 - Hood hinges and springs. I did these about 4 years ago and the hinges are too dark. The springs are OK, but I will do the hinges over but lighter in shade.
2 - Center link. I did these the way I described in the Tips and Tricks section. I did four in this lot, one went on my "K" car, the other on a 66 GT-350.
3 - Strut rods. These are the pair from my "K" car, I had another set ready to go. The center link and strut rods are lighter in color because of less time in the acid bath.
Jim
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Thanks, Jim. I've really been enjoying this series of posts. It's been very educational. I might even try tackling some small stuff to experiment with. :-\
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Jim, I have always wondered if using Evapor-Rust rather than water in a vibratory parts cleaner such as you described along with the green triangle media would hasten the cleaning process or make the job easier and better. Posed this question some time ago but no response so maybe it is just a silly notion. Anyone attempted this? Enjoy reading these posts greatly. Normally use an outside propane BBQ grille for heating the phosphating solution since it is handy and has four burners to heat the pan for hood hinges and other larger items. Thanks for sharing your methods.
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John,
It's the warning message on Evaporust that bothers me. The chemicals in Evaporust strip off everything, which is what you want, but you must put on a protective coating within two weeks or the part "rusts". That's what stopped me in doing rear springs, It was, "What's the next step?" I fooled around with a few degreasers until I spotted TSP on a shelf and tried it. The TSP and green pyramids in the Eastwood vibrator removed that last bit of oil/grease/dirt and left an item clean enough for the next step. I'll take a picture tomorrow of some items ready to be bead blasted and then clear zinc plated. They spent about four hours in the vibrator then air dried. They are almost usable at that stage.
Jim
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Evaporust cleans the parts really nice and speeds up the blasting process. But, I would never phosphate parts that have only been soaked in evaporust. I would always either lightly bead blast or use an acid wash.
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On the Evaporust website, a customer showed how he used a spray bottle on the frame of a Plymouth Roadrunner to remove rust http://www.evaporust.com/chassis.html . It works and works well to remove rust, but you need paint or some other treatment to cover up bare metal. I've not tried phosphating or zinc plating on items treated with Evaporust so I can't comment on those next steps. I'll take Charles comments as fact. On the two major items I used Evaporust on (a door and a fender), I primed and painted after the stuff dried. The door and fender are back on the car which was sold.
Jim
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A couple of other pictures:
1 - Some items cleaned in a vibrator with TSP and water (except the long bolts) to be eventually clear zinc plated. I did these last November. Note, no major rust after five months.
2 - My cabinet area. Note the 8 inch rear axle on the right. If and when it's needed, I'll send it out to be powder coated.
3 - The vibrator with the two bowls, covers and colander containing the glass pyramids. Note the black rubber covered "nut" to keep the covers on. Don't lose it.
I use about 3 or 4 tablespoons of TSP with the pyramids and cover the batch with water. About four hours of viabrating, a rinse in cold water and air dry.
Jim
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A couple of other pictures:
1 - Some items cleaned in a vibrator with TSP and water (except the long bolts) to be eventually clear zinc plated. I did these last November. Note, no major rust after five months.....................
Careful Jim - you'll get the evil eye from our friends in the rustier parts of the country ;)
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Careful Jim - you'll get the evil eye from our friends in the rustier parts of the country ;)
Yeah, it's rough living in a dry rust-free area. Yesterday's humidity was 16 percent. Today feels "muggy" at 24 percent (heh heh heh).
Jim
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Jim -
Thanks so much for the effort and detail you provide to the forum. As a "Newbie", it is invaluable to have stuff like this available. For the veterans, it probably gives them new ideas; but for the new hobbyist, it provides a general understanding of the procedures and gives (at least me) a sense that a lot can be done personally. However, it probably opens the door for a number of dumb questions from beginners, such as:
In the Hardware Prep - Preliminary
you reference using a Vibratory tumbler in Step 9. Is that in lieu of the Rock tumbler Step 5?
Could acetone be used as a cleaning/drying agent in Step 6? I am going to be doing very small batches initially and would likely move to the phosphate/plating step in short order after tumbling.
In the Hardware Prep - Final
You indicate bead blasting everything. I assume this is to remove the kerosene or other protective coating that was placed on the parts until ready for phosphate/plating. I garner it is also to prepare the parts to better accept whatever final coating is being applied. If this is the case than going straight from tumbler to phosphate wouldn't be an option.
Question, is there an etching solution or other option to blasting? I have not gotten a blasting cabinet yet...might need to just bite the bullet. I suspect using a vibratory tumbler with a course media wouldn't quite cut it.
I have gathered a variety of nuts and bolts from the recesses of the garage (hopefully haven't fallen off my car) and am going to give this all a trial run with a variety of the most common finishes. Again, I really think it is great that you volunteer your time and knowledge to those that may have neither(only speaking for myself).
Thanks
Bill
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Jim -
Thanks so much for the effort and detail you provide to the forum. As a "Newbie", it is invaluable to have stuff like this available. For the veterans, it probably gives them new ideas; but for the new hobbyist, it provides a general understanding of the procedures and gives (at least me) a sense that a lot can be done personally. However, it probably opens the door for a number of dumb questions from beginners, such as:
In the Hardware Prep - Preliminary
you reference using a Vibratory tumbler in Step 9. Is that in lieu of the Rock tumbler Step 5?
Could acetone be used as a cleaning/drying agent in Step 6? I am going to be doing very small batches initially and would likely move to the phosphate/plating step in short order after tumbling.
In the Hardware Prep - Final
You indicate bead blasting everything. I assume this is to remove the kerosene or other protective coating that was placed on the parts until ready for phosphate/plating. I garner it is also to prepare the parts to better accept whatever final coating is being applied. If this is the case than going straight from tumbler to phosphate wouldn't be an option.
Question, is there an etching solution or other option to blasting? I have not gotten a blasting cabinet yet...might need to just bite the bullet. I suspect using a vibratory tumbler with a course media wouldn't quite cut it.
I have gathered a variety of nuts and bolts from the recesses of the garage (hopefully haven't fallen off my car) and am going to give this all a trial run with a variety of the most common finishes. Again, I really think it is great that you volunteer your time and knowledge to those that may have neither(only speaking for myself).
Thanks
Bill
Check out "Vibratory tumbler " from harbor freight,eastwood, Cableas, Bass Pro shop ,National tool. etc. They all carry Vibratory tumbler's and show pictures so you can compare the differance. A rock tumbler is not going to get the job done. In asking the questions you are on the right path . :)
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you reference using a Vibratory tumbler in Step 9. Is that in lieu of the Rock tumbler Step 5?
It's in two different steps that I use the rock tumbler and the viabrator.
Could acetone be used as a cleaning/drying agent in Step 6? I am going to be doing very small batches initially and would likely move to the phosphate/plating step in short order after tumbling.
Acetone is flammable. I avoid things that burn and go boom in the night. Ask Jeff about fire related stuff. My fire fighting experience stems from being in a Damage Control Party on a US Navy Destroyer. However, my kerosene is kept and used outside. All containers are covered except when accessed.
You indicate bead blasting everything. I assume this is to remove the kerosene or other protective coating that was placed on the parts until ready for phosphate/plating. I garner it is also to prepare the parts to better accept whatever final coating is being applied. If this is the case than going straight from tumbler to phosphate wouldn't be an option.
The volatile part of the kerosene evaporates after awhile, leaving a light oil residue. That residue reduces the probability of rust, but it's still too "sticky" for the glass beads. I've got tumbled and kerosene dipped parts on the shelf for over 15 years (it's the low humidity and lack of rain in Northern California). The blasting gets into the threads and cleans them out. If you don't do this, your nuts and bolts will have a dark band in the thread and quite possibly will not thread and torque properly.
Question, is there an etching solution or other option to blasting? I have not gotten a blasting cabinet yet...might need to just bite the bullet. I suspect using a vibratory tumbler with a course media wouldn't quite cut it.
A vibrator tumbler uses 3/16 ceramic pyramids as a media, way too big to get in to clean the threads of nuts and bolts. I got in to doing a lot of parts so my procedure was as follows: soak in cold parts cleaner for a week; rinse in soapy clothes washer water; air dry for a week; tumble in metal filings for a week; dip in kerosene; air dry for at least two weeks; bead blast up to four days in advance of phosphating; phosphate; rinse immediately; air dry in air temperatures above 72F (Northern California does that) for an hour or two; spray with WD-40; sort (the batches are usually between 150 and 300 items). Beer drinking is encouraged.
Contact forum member preaction about phosphating materials.
A rock tumbler is not going to get the job done.
After 20 some odd years of using a rock tumbler (I even used the tumbler for rocks one winter), I can safely say that is gets the job done very well.
I got a couple of customers "encouraging" me to phosphate some hardware right now. I prefer to do a quality job so I'll wait for some warmer weather.
Jim
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Great post, Jim. I have been doing Garands, M-14 and M1-A's for some time. Some finishes are almost green. So be careful if you're using what is made for firearms.
Now most of us know, but ALWAYS WEAR SAFETY GLASSES and GLOVES during the process and when cleaning up.
-Keith
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It's in two different steps that I use the rock tumbler and the vibrator.
So do you use the vibratory tumbler as stated in Step 9 of Hardware Prep, after the kerosene wash?
Sorry for being slow on the uptake.
Bill
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tumble in metal filings for a week; I can safely say that is gets the job done very well.
It is safe to say that I don't have your patience. A virtue you have that I am in short supply of. ;) ;D
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It is safe to say that I don't have your patience. A virtue you have that I am in short supply of. ;) ;D
Patience grasshopper, patience (kids ??? ) -
Jim
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Patience grasshopper, patience (kids ??? ) -
Jim
Being out of the "Rat Race" helps with such patience...not HAVING to chase after that next paycheck lends to a much more relaxed life(style)...
I'm WAY far away from being this kind of patient yet (aged 55 this year)...With no pension plan in the foreseeable future, even SSI benefits will not, in and by themselves, afford much of a relaxed "senior years" living for a good majority of future would-be retirees. Looks like I (as well as many others) need to stay plugging away at life, likely a worker-bee till I take my last breath (Upside though...many millions of Americans depend on work force people like me staying employed till their dying day too!)
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Patience grasshopper, patience (kids ??? ) -
Jim
OK email me some of yours. ;D
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Jim, is that a radio on top of your bead blast cabinet ? Also I made a bulk purchase of E phos 630 which is manganese phosphate and is available if anyone needs some just send a PM.
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Jim, is that a radio on top of your bead blast cabinet ? Also I made a bulk purchase of E phos 630 which is manganese phosphate and is available if anyone needs some just send a PM.
Not a radio but a pair of RCA WSP150 wireless speakers, something to reduce the noise of the blast cabinet vacuum tank.
Jim
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By the way I did my first phosphate today and the parts came out great the biggest pieces being hood hinges and I followed your procedure and I couldn't ask for a better finished product thanks for all of your posting on this subject Jim. ;)
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Glad I could help.
Jim
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OK so I gotta ask the dumb question. I read early on ' bead blast everything ' really ? Pictures are of the hood hinges that I have cleaned, used paint remover on, wire brushed and went over with steel wool. The original greyish phosphate finish covers most of the parts with some discolored staining on some areas. For the most part rust and grease are gone. Is bare metal the desired surface prior to the new P & O application ? Thanks, Brian
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OK so I gotta ask the dumb question. I read early on ' bead blast everything ' really ? Pictures are of the hood hinges that I have cleaned, used paint remover on, wire brushed and went over with steel wool. The original greyish phosphate finish covers most of the parts with some discolored staining on some areas. For the most part rust and grease are gone. Is bare metal the desired surface prior to the new P & O application ? Thanks, Brian
Plating doesn't happen very well if at all even over light grease or rust. More likely then not you will get inconsistent results if you don't bead blast prior to zinc phosphating. With fresh bead blasting prior to cooking you are lessening the chance of splotchy plating . FYI in case you didn't figure it out wear rubber gloves (i use the med exam gloves ) while handling the parts so oil from your skin doesn't contaminate the part.
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OK so I gotta ask the dumb question. I read early on ' bead blast everything ' really ? Pictures are of the hood hinges that I have cleaned, used paint remover on, wire brushed and went over with steel wool. The original greyish phosphate finish covers most of the parts with some discolored staining on some areas. For the most part rust and grease are gone. Is bare metal the desired surface prior to the new P & O application ? Thanks, Brian
Plating doesn't happen very well if at all even over light grease or rust. More likely then not you will get inconsistent results if you don't bead blast prior to zinc phosphating. With fresh bead blasting prior to cooking you are lessening the chance of splotchy plating . FYI in case you didn't figure it out wear rubber gloves (i use the med exam gloves ) while handling the parts so oil from your skin doesn't contaminate the part.
Wire brushing does not get into the moving areas on hinges and latches. Bead blasting does, at least it does a better job. Grease still needs to be removed and it's better to do that before blasting. Soaking is a solvent of your choice (no smoking and fasten your seat belts if you do) is the best way.
Bob stated the grease and consistency problems. That's the real goal - consistency. As to grease, if you don't remove all of it prior to blasting you might spread it around with the beads and air making the items surface worse. For handling, I use a dry shop towel from the blast cabinet to the "to be phosphated area" - it's a quick move and then it's back to blasting. Rubber gloves are best when actually putting item into and taking them out of the phosphate bath. Careful - if you're doing this correctly, the phosphate bath is 180 to 210F.
Each time I get ready I walk thru the process - blast; stage (is it dry); blackening (for bolts); phosphating SST pan; Stove; propane for stove; tools, hooks, strainers all SST; rinse water (I use a 15 gallon galvanized wash tub); drying hooks (bent coathangers); towels for bolts and things that don't "hook"; oiling area (I use the top from a 30 gallon plastic trash can with several sheets of newspaper and a couple of shop towels); WD-40; watch (some parts need to be light, some need to be dark); beer (I know I left out something, so I'll do it again).
A tip on bead blasting - start on the inside edges like on a hood latch, and work your way out. Concentrate on hard to see spots, holes and edges first, the flat areas will take care of themselves.
Jim
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[quote author=Brian Conway Is bare metal the desired surface prior to the new P & O application ? Thanks, Brian
Thanks fellas; so the answer to the question is yes, bare metal. About the grease; a gasoline bath, a follow up with carb spray cleaner and using a toothbrush, q-tips and tooth picks does a pretty through job.
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[quote author=Brian Conway Is bare metal the desired surface prior to the new P & O application ? Thanks, Brian
Thanks fellas; so the answer to the question is yes, bare metal. About the grease; a gasoline bath, a follow up with carb spray cleaner and using a toothbrush, q-tips and tooth picks does a pretty through job.
I guess you don't have a bead blaster.
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No I don't have one. I sorta have access to a couple but really hate to be a bother and don't like having to ask. I'll figure something out. Brian
Well got it figured out.
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I've begun this process using most of Jim's excellent processes.
I really like the funnel idea for sandblasting small parts.
I was ready to try this today, so the locally available Klean-Strip Phosphoric Prep and Etch and Denatured Alcohol idea worked out real well.
I'm not so thrilled with using motor oil and will try WD instead. Maybe buy a gallon and dip parts instead of spraying.
Here's one of my first efforts, the hood catch:
[try again with pic, this time a download to this site]
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your pic did not come thru for me. just a blank square.
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Soaking in motor oil is a bit messy. What I do is soak for 24 hours, wipe off the excess, then clean with dish washing detergent and a tooth-brush in warm water. This will not remove the oil from the surface. Follow with whatever rust inhibitor you like.
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Thanks for the tip, Charles. I'll also see what Boeshield does after oiling. I'm in a test phase with this whole process right now. Too much time in the phosphate soup appears to obscure details on the bolt head.
Picture has been downloaded here instead of using a link to Google's cloud. I'll do either that or link to Flicker account from now on.
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I've always thought that one of the important thing was to fill the pores and if metal can "soak" up the oil give it the opportunity. I've often reheated the finished metal to remove any moisture then soak the parts in a 5 gallon light gear oil bucket I got at the parts house. After the soil I do a similar process to Charles then treat it with one of the fancy micro oils - currently Boeshield. Of course our conditions are much kinder in this part of the country
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I've got to bring this up to the top for the new guys. Phosphating is one of the oldest metal treatment techniques around. It is simple and effective. It is what Ford specified as a finish, -S2 and -S4, on many of their parts. I suggest you read this how to.
Jim
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I just tried my first finish. I used the instructions included in my palmetto order. It came out splotted. I bead blasted and didn’t clean prior to dipping. Temperature was 190. Palmetto’s instructions were different than what was in this thread. When the finish was bad I searched and found this forum. Is it splotchy because it wasn’t clean? Do I need to re-blast and start over? Have you seen this before?
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I just tried my first finish. I used the instructions included in my palmetto order. It came out splotted. I bead blasted and didn’t clean prior to dipping. Temperature was 190. Palmetto’s instructions were different than what was in this thread. When the finish was bad I searched and found this forum. Is it splotchy because it wasn’t clean? Do I need to re-blast and start over? Have you seen this before?
Looks like there was something (could be oil from touching it with you hand) that kept the liquid from doing its job. Yes its back to the beginning but part of the learning curve. Most of us have been there before
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Some items that were previously zinc plated (or some other type of electrolysis type of media deposit), will leave a light "blotch" if phosphated. That's an indication there was good penetation of the zinc. When that happens, it's back to the blasting cabinet. There are other items that have a "flaw" in their material and just will not cooperate. From the blasting cabinet to the phosphating tank, the items must be clean, free from oil and grease - that includes your own fingers - before phosphating. I use a clean shop towel or dry type rubber gloves to handle items. A pre-phosphating cleaning bath or dip (like acid) is not recommended. The one "exception" is if you are using Eastwood's metal blackening solution prior to phosphating nuts and bolts to get a dark finish.
What is the item you are having a problem with? Is it magnetic?
Jim
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Thanks for the replies. I'm trying to do the hood safety latch. I didn't touch it (gloves only). I don't know if it's original or aftermarket. What material are after market latches made of? Any chance they're not compatible?
After trying the latch, I had a spare tire hold down disk (not sure of the correct name) and phosphated it and it came out nicely. The only difference was that I used Easy Off to degrease it not knowing if that was the problem. The good news is that I've got something to work correctly. I used somebody else's cabinet so maybe the media could have been contaminated - who knows. I'm going to buy my own cabinet to make sure I know what condition the media is in.
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I just tried my first finish. I used the instructions included in my palmetto order. It came out splotted. I bead blasted and didn’t clean prior to dipping. Temperature was 190. Palmetto’s instructions were different than what was in this thread. When the finish was bad I searched and found this forum. Is it splotchy because it wasn’t clean? Do I need to re-blast and start over? Have you seen this before?
Hi gimmea250swb. I use the Palmetto system as well with both zinc & manganese. I also use a bit of a different process, but it is close to the same and generally get a great result unless of course the parts are not properly prepared or get contaminated.
Regarding the splotchiness, it is contamination. Contamination can be from various things, but the key is to make sure that you're blasting is very thorough, and that your blasting is the same consistent color all over. If there is any variation on your part before phosphating it will be the same after.
As has been pointed out, some previous coating that you may not be aware of, like zinc plating, anodizing, cad etc are often difficult to remove. Also residual petroleum products etc.
For my process I I start by washing the part in soap and water if there is no grease or rust.
If there is grease or oil I use the parts washer first. Then I go right to the dry media blaster.
From the media blaster depending on the part I may vapour blast the part if I want a shinier finish like on some fasteners and other parts. Then I submerge the parts depending on size i various containers and build to between 190-200 degrees.
Then I usually put the parts in small metal baskets with hooks on them if the parts are small. For bigger parts like hood springs I just drop them right in the container. I leave the parts in for 10-15 minutes max.
Then I rinse with water, then blow dry with compressed air and then spray directly with Boeshield and let dry. I generally don't wipe down the parts and just let the boesheild dry fully overnight or for 24 hours approx.
I may try adding the oil step just before Boeshield to see if it yields a darker finish.
FYI I just did some hood spring tonight that were previously cad plated and they did not take well. So I blasted them a second time and they still did not take well. The good news is I can see the areas that didn't take well and know which areas still need to be blasted longer. Hopefully another thorough blast will yield a good result. I didnt see this article until after I left my shop but will post a photo tomorrow. Take a close look at the photos I posted of the hood springs and you can see the difference in color. Even this subtle difference makes a big difference in the final result.
Here are some parts I have done using my method. Like other have said it is quick and simple and yields a great result as a rule. Note that the Axel studs were previously zinc platted and turned out fine with proper blasting time.
FYI I also recently tried to phosphate some shackles that were stainless steel and they don't take at all as the meal is not phosphorous.
Good luck with that stubborn part.
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If you put the part in some muriatic acid it will bubble wildly as long as the zinc or cad are on it . After the the zinc or cad is dissolved by the acid (typically less then 5 minutes) the bubbles will slow dramatically which means the zinc or cad is gone. I use this process when ever I have a plating issue like that and it soles the problem the quickest.
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If you put the part in some muriatic acid it will bubble wildly as long as the zinc or cad are on it . After the the zinc or cad is dissolved by the acid (typically less then 5 minutes) the bubbles will slow dramatically which means the zinc or cad is gone. I use this process when ever I have a plating issue like that and it soles the problem the quickest.
Thanks Bob appreciate it
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If you put the part in some muriatic acid it will bubble wildly as long as the zinc or cad are on it . After the the zinc or cad is dissolved by the acid (typically less then 5 minutes) the bubbles will slow dramatically which means the zinc or cad is gone. I use this process when ever I have a plating issue like that and it soles the problem the quickest.
Excellent. I've not had that problem, but it's nice to know there is a solution. Keep in mind that all acids are hazardous. Keep a container of baking soda (Borax or Arm and Hammer) around for neutralizing spills, on the ground, or on you.
Jim
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Excellent. I've not had that problem, but it's nice to know there is a solution. Keep in mind that all acids are hazardous. Keep a container of baking soda (Borax or Arm and Hammer) around for neutralizing spills, on the ground, or on you.
Jim
I am going to try the acid method as it is definitely inconsistent with the media blaster based on my experience trying to remove previous coatings. Some come off easier than others depending on the coating, the metal, the part etc
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Excellent. I've not had that problem, but it's nice to know there is a solution. Keep in mind that all acids are hazardous. Keep a container of baking soda (Borax or Arm and Hammer) around for neutralizing spills, on the ground, or on you.
Jim
+++++1. and wear eye protection to be on the safe side.
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If you put the part in some muriatic acid it will bubble wildly as long as the zinc or cad are on it . After the the zinc or cad is dissolved by the acid (typically less then 5 minutes) the bubbles will slow dramatically which means the zinc or cad is gone. I use this process when ever I have a plating issue like that and it soles the problem the quickest.
I've made it a practice to give the parts, that I'm either zinc plating or phosphate treating, a final "dip" in a muriatic acid solution before processing to assure a great finished product. I use a 5-10% acid concentration for this dip. I don't leave the parts in the acid for more than a couple of minutes. I've learned to do this final dip because I've experienced similar "contamination" or "staining" issues as everyone else and find that the final acid dip usually eliminates them. I do a post-rinse with distilled water and blow dry with compressed air. Make sure to NOT to touch your parts with your bare hands at any time following your initial degreasing (which includes post bead blasting) to keep skin oil off of the part. I've discovered that there is no such thing as being too clean when doing these processes.
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I've made it a practice to give the parts, that I'm either zinc plating or phosphate treating, a final "dip" in a muriatic acid solution before processing to assure a great finished product. I use a 5-10% acid concentration for this dip. I don't leave the parts in the acid for more than a couple of minutes. I've learned to do this final dip because I've experienced similar "contamination" or "staining" issues as everyone else and find that the final acid dip usually eliminates them. I do a post-rinse with distilled water and blow dry with compressed air. Make sure to NOT to touch your parts with your bare hands at any time following your initial degreasing (which includes post bead blasting) to keep skin oil off of the part. I've discovered that there is no such thing as being too clean when doing these processes.
I use the same diluted solution for parts that are already stripped . It will slightly etch the surface a long with cleaning off contaminants. Just a note that the 5-10% solution will take many hours to strip zinc plating off of a part. I use the undiluted solution to strip zinc plated parts quickly.
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Has anyone sourced a RETAIL source of E-phos 630 or the likes (that they have been happy with the results) ?
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I use the same diluted solution for parts that are already stripped . It will slightly etch the surface a long with cleaning off contaminants. Just a note that the 5-10% solution will take many hours to strip zinc plating off of a part. I use the undiluted solution to strip zinc plated parts quickly.
How about a description of the tools you use, materials, life expectancy, etc?
Jim
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Has anyone sourced a RETAIL source of E-phos 630 or the likes (that they have been happy with the results) ?
The shop that does my zinc plating ordered a case of E-Phos 630, half for them, half for me. They had a customer that wanted some items phosphated and oiled. If you have a "friendly" plating shop you use, see if they would order some. That shop probably has a Federal Certification for handling that type of material, you don't. Don't be surprised if you need to order a case. You may be able to sell a bottle or two on this forum.
The link: https://www.epi.com/phosphates/steel/#e-phos-630
Jim
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The shop that does my zinc plating ordered a case of E-Phos 630, half for them, half for me. They had a customer that wanted some items phosphated and oiled. If you have a "friendly" plating shop you use, see if they would order some. That shop probably has a Federal Certification for handling that type of material, you don't. Don't be surprised if you need to order a case. You may be able to sell a bottle or two on this forum.
The link: https://www.epi.com/phosphates/steel/#e-phos-630
Jim
Thanks Jim.
I get eager at times and probably because of that, shoot myself in the foot.
Earlier today, I ordered this:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001B800OQ?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_prod_image
I will report back how things turn out, if not here in this thread, my 67 GTA thread in the Members Build area.
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Earlier today, I ordered this:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001B800OQ?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_prod_image
I will report back how things turn out, if not here in this thread, my 67 GTA thread in the Members Build area.
The solution worked out good, see attached photo.
I did have some flash rusting when I followed directions for air drying after rinse.
I then re-cooked the hinge and went straight to water rinse, straight to WD-40 spray followed by air dry and re-spraying with the WD and a wipe down with a rag.
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Yeah! You get a gold star.
WD-40 flushes out any built up crud (an old US Navy term) that has accumulated between the moving arms. It also acts as a lubricant after the crud is flushed, a dual purpose liquid.
Jim
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The solution worked out good, see attached photo.
I did have some flash rusting when I followed directions for air drying after rinse.
I then re-cooked the hinge and went straight to water rinse, straight to WD-40 spray followed by air dry and re-spraying with the WD and a wipe down with a rag.
I have learned to pat dry to keep from flash rust.
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I have learned to pat dry to keep from flash rust.
I don't have that problem in the warm California sun - ;)
Jim
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I have learned to pat dry to keep from flash rust.
I don't have that problem in the warm California sun - ;)
Jim
...Meanwhile, the rest of us hobbyists are trying to accomplish such things in whatever environment they live within.
FWIW, I gave So. Calif. 21 years of my adult life and have experienced a low to no humidity environment and YES, that aspect is desirable for such projects...
...but out here in the Real World...we need a process that works in ANY and EVERY environment (even in a TROPICAL environment such as Florida or the likes) so I hope to hear from others who have successfully achieved positive results like what Bob has shared.
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...Meanwhile, the rest of us hobbyists are trying to accomplish such things in whatever environment they live within.
In can't control the environment, and I wish you luck in finding a "universal" and "foolproof" method of preventing surface rust when the phosphate part is done. The best I could come up with is actually simple, and smelly. Have a pot of heated motor oil ready to drop the post-phosphated, post-rinsed items into. I think Charles has gotten some results this way. That's the way they did it way back when. Your only remaining problem is complaints from family and neighbors. Then there's the fire department looking for the source of the oil smell.
Jim
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In can't control the environment, and I wish you luck in finding a "universal" and "foolproof" method of preventing surface rust when the phosphate part is done. The best I could come up with is actually simple, and smelly. Have a pot of heated motor oil ready to drop the post-phosphated, post-rinsed items into. I think Charles has gotten some results this way. That's the way they did it way back when. Your only remaining problem is complaints from family and neighbors. Then there's the fire department looking for the source of the oil smell.
Jim
...I did have some flash rusting when I followed directions for air drying after rinse.
I then re-cooked the hinge and went straight to water rinse, straight to WD-40 spray followed by air dry and re-spraying with the WD and a wipe down with a rag.
...agree, this seems to be similar to what I tried...going STRAIGHT TO WD-40 out of the rinse.
I appreciate all you have contributed to share your experiences Jim, especially starting this thread...I doubt I would have attempted this without all your input.
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I appreciate all you have contributed to share your experiences Jim, especially starting this thread...I doubt I would have attempted this without all your input.
Thanks. I have to again thank a couple of MCA Gold Card Judges, Rich Ciaffredo and Bruce Cunningham, for getting me started in P&O about 25 years ago. For me, it's still a learning process as new techniques are tried all the time, some with success. Keep asking questions, keep trying new stuff. It all helps.
Jim
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I appreciate all of the information that has been shared. I have "restored" several Mustangs and Cougars in the past but not to the level I intend on my current project. That being said the process of; cleaning, tumbling, blasting and treating/ finishing the different components can be time and money intensive. In wanting to do it Right and only Once (understanding there is some trial and error) is there a single resource that one can go to that lists the correct finishes and coatings based on year and assembly plant? BTW the current project is a Dearborn assembled 1968 Cougar which, from my experience, was built in a similar way as the Mustangs of the same generation. I appreciate your help in advance!
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First, welcome to the forum. In general, the assembly line worker had a "bucket" (some other container) of hardware to be used for whatever task that worker was required to do. As always, there are exceptions. That being said, you could use the "Mustang Hardware Spreadsheet 67-68" as a guideline (apologies to Captain Barbossa) to determine most of your requirements. What I'm saying is a fender bolt is a fender bolt. You can also use the measurements of an item of hardware you're holding in your hand to identify what it is and where it might go. Ford seldom had two different finishes for the same part on the assembly line.
Give that direction a try, then ask specifics.
Jim
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I haven't read this whole thread, so this may be a dup.
I use the gallon size of WD-40 with its sprayer. You don't get all the air bublles you get with the spray, it has a lot more control as you can pull on the sprayer just a little or with more force to get more. It appears you get more soluble liquid on the part rather than a bunch of it going into the air.
I slather the crap out of the part and use gloves to move it around. As Jim states, it moves media blast remnants out of moving parts.
A superior delivery method, in my book. And cheaper in the long run than all of those cans.
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Thank you for the reply and the welcome Jim. I guess more of what I was trying to locate are what parts should be phoshated other than bolts? Would it be all natural metal, unpainted parts or is there a list that exists somewhere with the component parts that received this treatment. There is a wealth of knowledge on this site however I have not been able to locate a consolidated list of parts which may exist I just haven't located it yet. I hope that helps.
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Thank you for the reply and the welcome Jim. I guess more of what I was trying to locate are what parts should be phoshated other than bolts? Would it be all natural metal, unpainted parts or is there a list that exists somewhere with the component parts that received this treatment. There is a wealth of knowledge on this site however I have not been able to locate a consolidated list of parts which may exist I just haven't located it yet. I hope that helps.
Hi Kerry I was asking the same thing a while back, and I have since made my own list for fasteners and parts. I have not shared it yet and would like to have it doubled checked, but it is getting updated all of the time and I am using that list as the basis of my restoration. I have seen a few different lists floating around in various places and used those as a starting point and then asking lots of questions and doing my research. It is not an official list per sey, but I have cross referenced it with the MCA judging rules, input from this forum and talking to individuals with experience. I am sure it is not perfect, but it is a great start and will continue to be updated until I am confident that it is accurate and correct. I am sure that other have done the same thing. I would be great if there was one comprehensive document that was available for reference. FYI as there are differences for each year and plant etc, you need to take that into consideration and make sure that the information you are applying is on point for your application. Also I stress to not assume. I also have taken the advice of forum members suggestions to use the search function, library, MPC, Osbourne Manuals, fastener spread sheets and other resources available.
I think a cheat sheet should be available ideally. I would be willing to share mine, but it would only be applicable for my year, model, plant etc. I stress a disclaimer that it is based on my research and is in no way an endorsed comprehensive document, but rather a work in progress. I would add to that, that after my car is judged I will have a much better idea of how correct my list is, but doing everything I can in the meantime by asking questions and researching to get as close as I can to that goal. And yes it is a lot of work and requires a lot of time and dedication, something most of us go through when restoring our cars
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Thank you for the reply and the welcome Jim. I guess more of what I was trying to locate are what parts should be phoshated other than bolts? Would it be all natural metal, unpainted parts or is there a list that exists somewhere with the component parts that received this treatment. There is a wealth of knowledge on this site however I have not been able to locate a consolidated list of parts which may exist I just haven't located it yet. I hope that helps.
Welcome also to the site. You will want to focus on Dearborn details and the related years of the cars you own on many details such as finishes since over and over we continue to find differences in the finer details but yes Mustangs were built one after another with the Cougars and the same container that held the (for example) hood hinge bolts was used for both cars. The other thing to at least try and focus on it when your car was really built - available from a Marti report.
Again welcome. Lots of reading and getting comfortable ( as much as possible) with the search feature
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The solution worked out good, see attached photo.
I did have some flash rusting when I followed directions for air drying after rinse.
I then re-cooked the hinge and went straight to water rinse, straight to WD-40 spray followed by air dry and re-spraying with the WD and a wipe down with a rag.
Richard,
I have most of the supplies put together to do some phosphating, including the LCW Manganese Phosphate Solution, so I'm almost ready to try my hand at this.
To get the color for those hinges, did you use the Black Dip Pre-Treatment that LCW sells, or was that just the Phosphate?
If you recall, what kind of timing did you use for the hinge vs the spring?
General question:
Can this stuff be stored long term after mixing and use and reused, or must it be left to evaporate and be disposed as mentioned?
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To get the color for those hinges, did you use the Black Dip Pre-Treatment that LCW sells, or was that just the Phosphate?
If you recall, what kind of timing did you use for the hinge vs the spring?
Hinges are supposed to be natural, the springs are darker primarily because of the heat treatment process required.
Timing is difficult to state. In other words, experiment. It is dependent on your water (mine comes from the Sierra Nevada Mountains), the type of phosphoric acid used, the amount of phosphoric acid used, the temperature of the bath, with a 10 minute maximum (self imposed) bath time. There's also a minimum time to achieve a "natural steel" look, about one to two minutes. I'll use a couple of freshly bead blasted bolts as test subjects to determine what my current bath will do.
Hints:
1. Do all your "natural" parts first, the "Black Dip Pre-Treatment" parts last.
2. Don't do any phosphating if your air temperature is lower than 72F.
3. Air drying seems to be the best method to get rid of rinse water (aka, a dry day). Oven drying tends to leave "flash rust".
When I get finished with all I the phosphating I'm going to do, I pour off the cooled hot water pan into a 5 gallon plastic bucket and pour in a couple of cups of Borax - an alkali - into the acid bath to neutralize it. Occasionally, I will save the acid bath for use the next day - covered of course. I use Eastwood's metal black (which seems to be discontinued) but pour it into a plastic (Eastwood supplied) container for future use when done. I wind up with the concentrate and my diluted mix. It is not heated to work. I don't know if the stuff you have will function in the same way.
Storage of unused chemicals should take into consideration winter temperature. In Silicon Valley, freezing temperatures are very infrequent (and illegal ;) ).
Jim
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Thanks Jim.
I'm in Southern California, so freezing temps aren't a concern here either. Although, the folks in Texas may have said the same thing a few weeks back!
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I will pat dry with a old towel the items to minimize the possibility of flash rust while they all the way air dry. If you try to blow them dry with air pressure expect to see flash rust.
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Richard,
I have most of the supplies put together to do some phosphating, including the LCW Manganese Phosphate Solution, so I'm almost ready to try my hand at this.
To get the color for those hinges, did you use the Black Dip Pre-Treatment that LCW sells, or was that just the Phosphate?
If you recall, what kind of timing did you use for the hinge vs the spring?
General question:
Can this stuff be stored long term after mixing and use and reused, or must it be left to evaporate and be disposed as mentioned?
I only used the phosphate solution for a shorter length of time to achievethe lighter color (as Jim indicated). I did store the solution but only needed it a few times over last year and it worked out ok being re-used. I still need to dispose of it soon.
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I only used the phosphate solution for a shorter length of time to achievethe lighter color (as Jim indicated). I did store the solution but only needed it a few times over last year and it worked out ok being re-used. I still need to dispose of it soon.
Good to know. Thanks!
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Posting this again because there are a lot of recent questions that have their answers in this thread.
Jim
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Great information in this thread. I'm a novice when it comes to this process but I have done a couple things with good success. It's nice to have the tips for dealing with things like bolts and screws which were going to be next on my list to attempt.
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I'm getting ready to try my hand at this for my hood hinges and a couple of questions:
1)Is it ok to spray the hinges with a degreaser after bead blasting before phosphating ?
2) For the rinse can I just run the hinge under a tap or does dipping in a bucket do a better job ?
3)This is the product that I'm going to use mixed 4:1 , dose it look suitable ?
https://www.duracoatfirearmfinishes.com/zinc-phosphate-parkerizing-solution-p/zps.htm
4)I'm thinking 7-8 minutes in the bath ,does that sound right ?
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I'm getting ready to try my hand at this for my hood hinges and a couple of questions:
1)Is it ok to spray the hinges with a degreaser after bead blasting before phosphating ?
No! The metal MUST be dry and clean. If you are in an area of the country that is humid, wait until a hot day in summer.
2) For the rinse can I just run the hinge under a tap or does dipping in a bucket do a better job ?
No. The bucket stops the phosphating process, rinses and cools the items. I HIGHLY recommend you do any phosphating when the air temperature is above 72F. Otherwise, you get surface rust. I found that air drying is the best method. Oven drying leaves surface rust, compressed air is not much better if you are in a humid environment.
3)This is the product that I'm going to use mixed 4:1 , dose it look suitable ?
https://www.duracoatfirearmfinishes.com/zinc-phosphate-parkerizing-solution-p/zps.htm
4)I'm thinking 7-8 minutes in the bath ,does that sound right ?
In any chemical process, do a test piece first. The "parkerizing" process is designed to get a maximum of protection and that results in a very dark finish, you want a lighter shade to replicate cold rolled steel. That means a couple of ounces of solution to a gallon of water. Timing is another factor. Two minutes may be too much.
DO A TEST PIECE FIRST.
Hood springs should be darker as they were heat treated.
Don't forget the WD-40.
Jim
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No! The metal MUST be dry and clean. If you are in an area of the country that is humid, wait until a hot day in summer.No. The bucket stops the phosphating process, rinses and cools the items. I HIGHLY recommend you do any phosphating when the air temperature is above 72F. Otherwise, you get surface rust. I found that air drying is the best method. Oven drying leaves surface rust, compressed air is not much better if you are in a humid environment. In any chemical process, do a test piece first. The "parkerizing" process is designed to get a maximum of protection and that results in a very dark finish, you want a lighter shade to replicate cold rolled steel. That means a couple of ounces of solution to a gallon of water. Timing is another factor. Two minutes may be too much.
DO A TEST PIECE FIRST.
Hood springs should be darker as they were heat treated.
Don't forget the WD-40.
Jim
The hood hinges look like zinc phosphate and the springs look like manganese. That is how I did mine as well. The hood latch looks manganese as well
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The hood hinges look like zinc phosphate and the spring look like manganese. That is how I did mine as well. The hood latch looks manganese as well
I just looked at my stock (again) and it's either manganese phosphate or the container says "contains phosphoric acid, 75 %". That last was from a product called "Rust-Mort". I used that because that was all that was available at the time. Even my Parkerizing solution is manganese based.
I get my finish "shades" with a low amount of mix and "timed" cooking in the mix. REMEMBER. That bath is at least 190 degrees F. Boiling is better.
Jim
Here's a link to the preferred solution.
https://www.epi.com/phosphates/steel/#e-phos-630
You normally cannot order it direct. I get mine thru a "friendly" plating shop.
One more thing -
DO NOT TOUCH FRESHLY BEAD BLASTED STEEL WITH BARE HANDS
-Use clean, dry gloves or clean dry shop towels.
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Thanks guys !
Back to the degreasing just for a minute,
Wouldn't the bead blasting process remove any oils that are on the hinges ?
If so then why degrease before bead blasting ?
and for timing, if i think it's too light a shade can I just put it back in the bath ?
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Thanks guys !
Back to the degreasing just for a minute,
Wouldn't the bead blasting process remove any oils that are on the hinges ? .......
Think the answer is that oil can and does get in the metal where blasting only deals with the surface
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Also read that the phosphating process is complete when the bubbling stops.
Is that an accurate statement ?
Is distilled water better for the phosphating solution ?
I thought I read that somewhere...
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Back to the degreasing just for a minute,
Wouldn't the bead blasting process remove any oils that are on the hinges ?
If so then why degrease before bead blasting ?
and for timing, if i think it's too light a shade can I just put it back in the bath ?
Be reasonable. The piece has to be dry to bead blast, and clean to phosphate. How you get to those stages is different for each part. I use kerosene, Berryman's B12, paint thinner and other solvents to get a part prepped for bead blasting. There is no single perfect preparation, the part needs to be CLEAN.
Also read that the phosphating process is complete when the bubbling stops.
Is that an accurate statement ?
Is distilled water better for the phosphating solution ?
I thought I read that somewhere...
Two "no" answers, and throw away the "somewhere".
Jim
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Thanks Jim, I appreciate the help and your patience ;D
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I went back to the initial post to see if I missed something. (I did clean up some of the "alternate special characters".) Literally every question you asked, or every situation you posed, was addressed by me or by other members of this forum that had "alternatives" to materials or processes.
I now ask you - please read the entire thread again - please.
Jim
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The zinc phosphate solution that I am going to use says to put some "coarse steel wool" in the solution before phosphating and parts.
Has anyone done this ?
Waht is the purpose of the steel wool ?
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If you put the part in some muriatic acid it will bubble wildly as long as the zinc or cad are on it . After the the zinc or cad is dissolved by the acid (typically less then 5 minutes) the bubbles will slow dramatically which means the zinc or cad is gone. I use this process when ever I have a plating issue like that and it soles the problem the quickest.
Rereading this thread.
I have two plastic coffee containers. One contains muriatic acid and the other baking soda in water.
I either place the acid outside and use an acid mask or in my vent hood (and still use a mask). The fumes coming off are nasty.
I have a roll of 18 gauge copper wire and snip off 6 inches or so to suspend the part in the acid. After all the bubbles from the part in the acid are gone I dip the part into the baking soda mix until those neutralizing bubbles disappear.
If I'm plating I suspend the part in 5% my rustic acid if I can't get to it immediately since the part can surface rust quickly.
I keep the shop under 60% humidity running a large dehumidifier. I live amongst trees and streams which tends to raise humidity levels compared to the subdivisions.
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The zinc phosphate solution that I am going to use says to put some "coarse steel wool" in the solution before phosphating and parts.
Has anyone done this ?
Waht is the purpose of the steel wool ?
Beats me. I've used Parkerizing liquids on "barrels" and on hardware but never read anything about "steel wool" in the solution.
I guess don't bother.
Jim
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Found this info on the steel wool posted by a chemist:
In my day , and maybe still, in Industry , it was called "Aging" the Bath-,??-of Chemicals.
It's purpose is to introduce Iron, which with use, would happen anyway. With low Iron levels, thin , patchy coatings would be evident. As the Iron content increased with use, the coatings would become denser and exhibit the sought after appearance. Doing it this way would produce a lot of scrap parts, but would increase the Iron levels (Titratable !) using KmNo4??Potassium Permanganate. Iron in solution is also an Oxidising agent, as is Sodium Nitrite (an accelerator) and as such the Titration method is the same.
Typically, again, in well formulated Compounds, there is no need to add steel wool, nuts and bolts etc to add Iron.
Immersion Class 1 phosphates can Run "on the Iron side"??Higher temp. or "on the Nitrite side", ZINC only. Nitrite keeps the Iron out of solution, allows faster coatiing times and smoother denser crystal formation, preferred for pre Paint applications.
To much iron will cause thin coarse coatings and eventually no coating if really high.
What you're doing in adding some old to new is Borderline brilliant !!? obviously the old will have Fe which can only help with a new mix.
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The zinc phosphate solution that I am going to use says to put some "coarse steel wool" in the solution before phosphating and parts.
Has anyone done this ?
Waht is the purpose of the steel wool ?
I am not familiar with that product, but I use hot phosphate (parkerizing solution) all the time. Is your product a cold or hot phosphating process? I use steel wool to apply cold phosphate gel and it works great .I apply the gel to the steel wool and then burnish the part. It works great for certain applications. However the end result is dramatically different between the two processes. For a light coating that looks like natural metal I recommend cold gel phosphate. For fasteners and other parts that need a dark consistent finish I suggest the Manganese hot phosphate solution. FYI you can also get zinc hot phosphate solution as well.
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I've seen where people have been using or suggesting the steel wool usage for decades though never choose to go that direction. As Bill suggests there are so many different products and processes to recreate all sorts of tones and tints when using multiple products and methods. All a conclusion of experimenting
SO glad we don't have to deal with the humidity out here normally. Just something else for some of us to contend with and another thing to worry about
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@bullitt68 , It is a hot solution that I will be using.
I think I will go without the steel wool...
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I would suggest you go to the member restoration area and look at what members have used to see if the color and tone are what you are after. We talk about our favorites but both bullitt68 and I tend toward the Palmetto phosphorizing solution and the Brownells Oxpho-Blue.
But whatever the product or user, compare other's work and make your own call.
But, don't expect things to work the first time. I've been experimenting for years and still have to redo things.
Oh, on edit I should add -- get a stainless thermometer. You need to watch your temps. Bring the water up to at least 180 def F and add the compound to the water. General rule is add acid to water so do that with the parkerizing solution as well.
Unlike some I use a single "5th" burner -- a single electric. It is real easy to keep the temp and I'm not a fan of open flame in that area of my workshop.
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Thanks Bossbill,great tips !
I also plan to preheat the parts in the oven as well, so that the temp drop will be very small...
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I replate distributor hold down clips and have had issues with them not turning out well and/or starting to rust later. I now do this for these particular parts;
blast clean
muriatic acid dip
water rinse
zinc phosphate using Palmetto product around 190-200 degrees
dip in WD 40 to neutralize
blow them relatively dry and then bake in a toaster oven at 225 or so to completely dry (they look bad/crusty when I take them out of the oven)
soak in 30W motor oil for 24 hrs or more
leave on paper towels for a day or two until relatively free of oil droplets and store in this condition
wipe dry when installing
Not sure why these are fighting me - must be a metallurgy thing - but this works now so this is what I do. And people ask me how long it takes to restore something; how do you account for the time spent prepping component parts?
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Jim: Is your media clean that is used to blast the pieces? The muriatic acid ought to prevent any issues. I normally just blow dry after rinsing off in water and soak everything in motor oil for 24 hours.
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This picture was taken on 7/18/22 around 8:05PM PDT. The distributor clip was phosphated at least 10 years ago.
muriatic acid dip
water rinse
Why? Muriatic acid is primarlily use to remove zinc or cad plating.
zinc phosphate using Palmetto product around 190-200 degrees
Yes. Product and temperature are good. Experiment to get the phosphoric acid-water bath percentages to give you the finish shade you want.
dip in WD 40 to neutralize
You have just mixed residual phosphoric acid and WD-40. Rinse in tap water to: stop the phosphoric process; cool the item to handle.
blow them relatively dry and then bake in a toaster oven at 225 or so to completely dry (they look bad/crusty when I take them out of the oven)
I "air dry". Of course the summer daytime humidity "here" is in the 30-40 percent range, but every attempt by me to blow air on parts results in excessive rust. And a "toaster oven"? Afternoon temperatures here do the trick. In an hour after the water rinse/cooling step, I spray WD-40.
soak in 30W motor oil for 24 hrs or more
Never have. (OK, once.) The WD-40 does it for me. (I also use WD-40 to flush out tight spaces and joints, like hood hinges - second pic.)
leave on paper towels for a day or two until relatively free of oil droplets and store in this condition
wipe dry when installing
I leave the WD-40 on. I don't know if it gets absorbed into the metal, or evaporates. For storage, leave it.
Not sure why these are fighting me - must be a metallurgy thing - but this works now so this is what I do. And people ask me how long it takes to restore something; how do you account for the time spent prepping component parts?
When re-inventing the wheel ;) make sure it does what you want, and don't speed excessive time on it.
Jim
PS: Go back and re-read the procedure from the start.
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I get flash rust issues when blow drying also. I typically pat dry with a rag ,towel etc. before letting air dry or baking.
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Jim: Is your media clean that is used to blast the pieces? The muriatic acid ought to prevent any issues. I normally just blow dry after rinsing off in water and soak everything in motor oil for 24 hours.
Charles - I have pretty clean fine glass bead media. I never blast a greasy part but it does get contaminated with solids of course (paint, corrosion). The muriatic acid is intended to get all of the oil/grease out of the pores of the metal. I haven't tried going straight from the phosphating bath to the motor oil, skipping the oven, so maybe that is all I need to do but I felt like my parts needed to be bone dry first, thus the heat. My tedious process seems to be working and I do these in batches so I am reluctant to change or experiment at this point, even if it allows me to skip a step. You know - if it ain't broke......
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The phosphate process creates a coating on the surface, so I don't think moisture would be absorbing into the metal surface like on bare, freshly blasted steel. I've been using my process for 15-20 years I would guess, works well. I use a strainer for dipping in oil bath, remove and wipe off excess with paper towels and then lay the parts out on paper towels on a bench. I don't like the oily surface, so before installing, I usually clean them with dishwashing detergent and an old toothbrush, dry off and then apply some boeshield or cosmoline.
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I should probably apply Boeshield before I install the parts, just as a precaution against any rust specs showing up later on. I also have the Cosmoline option.
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Charles , how long do you leave the parts in the oil bath and how long do they sit before you clean with detergent ?
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Charles , how long do you leave the parts in the oil bath and how long do they sit before you clean with detergent ?
Usually just overnight is fine. When I do a batch for a car, it takes a while to go through everything, some sit longer than others. The process seems pretty consistent.
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Charles , how long do you leave the parts in the oil bath and how long do they sit before you clean with detergent ?
I've never followed with a cleaning after then are soaked. Just a simple wipe. Don't want to reduce the protection I spent time putting on.
I heat before I soak to open the pores and hope that some of the oil penetrated deeper into the item more than a simple wipe of cold dunk. Of course our parts locally don't have the humidity to deal with but would rather be over protected than under.
Will/do go back over the surfaces like threads and such after sub assemblies are assembled to attached to the car also with the same or similar products
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Just a reminder, the "WD" part of "WD-40" means "Water Displacement", that's why it is used at our level.
The original hardware manufacturers took hot, phosphated parts and dropped them in a special hot oil tank. (I believe there was a rinse step in there and I would assume it was hot too.) The oil they used was not regular motor oil either (most likely a proprietary mix), but it probably made a lot of smoke and stunk up the facility. All the steps were done quickly. I can picture a conveyor basket system as a possible method.
Jim
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So , re-reading again for the 100th time :)
I'm not sure the "oil bath " is feasible for my hood hinges ?
Is it worth the 5-6 gallons of oil required to soak the hinges ?
Or is spraying with Boe-Shield good enough ?
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So , re-reading again for the 100th time :)
I'm not sure the "oil bath " is feasible for my hood hinges ?
Is it worth the 5-6 gallons of oil required to soak the hinges ?
Or is spraying with Bio-Shield good enough ?
You can use an aluminum/foil turkey pan or something similar to place the oil in and that way it won't take that much oil. I your not heating them than even extra large zip lock style bag would take even less oil
Just a thought and some options to consider
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Great idea !
I think the turkey pans will work !
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So , I think the muriatic acid dip may be a worthwhile step for my hinges but have a couple of questions
1) can I use a foil roasting pan for submerging the hinges in the muriatic acid ? or do I need to use plastic ?
2) how long should I leave the parts submerged, assuming full strength acid.
3) water rinse/dunk and pat dry after removal ?
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So , I think the muriatic acid dip may be a worthwhile step for my hinges but have a couple of questions
1) can I use a foil roasting pan for submerging the hinges in the muriatic acid ? or do I need to use plastic ?
2) how long should I leave the parts submerged, assuming full strength acid.
3) water rinse/dunk and pat dry after removal ?
Plastic or glass if using the Muratic acid . Aluminum turkey pan is OK for oil but a big no for the acid. Of course plastic would be best given the possibility of breakage.
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So , I think the muriatic acid dip may be a worthwhile step for my hinges but have a couple of questions
1) can I use a foil roasting pan for submerging the hinges in the muriatic acid ? or do I need to use plastic ?
2) how long should I leave the parts submerged, assuming full strength acid.
3) water rinse/dunk and pat dry after removal ?
I didn't see this post until after i answered your PM - [Quote from: rtate on July 22, 2022, 10:22:32 PM
Hi Bob, reading the phosphating 101 thread and I think I'm going to do the muriatic acid dip first and had a couple of questions for you.
1) how long should I leave the hinge in the acid
2) Do you water rise/dip after and then pat dry ?
3) and then right to the phosphating process ?
4) full strength muriatic acid ? ]
If it is plated I would say full strength . If you are just wanting to get it cleaned from any contamination after bead blasting etc. the 50/50 mixture. Be careful and were safety glasses. If striping plating you leave in the full strength until it almost stops fizzing . If cleaning possible contamination then A minute or two is all that is needed. Wash off with water . No need to pat dry if you are immediately going into the phosphating process. After phosphating process rinse in water and then pat dry. Bake in oven is best to get water out of joints. Be prepared to oil up after it is dry .]
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My Phosphating is now completed and I'm very pleased with the results :D
Thanks for this guide and all the help I received along the way !
One final question though...
How do I know if both the muriatic acid and phosphating solution are neutralized ?
1 gallon of muriatic mixed with 1 gallon water
phosphoric acid mixed 4:1 with water
I added 1lb of borax to each so far, will that be enough ?
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Im tring to do some trouble shooting has anyone come across a situation while doing phosphating I have had a white flakey material condensing and suspended in the hot water/phosphate solution ? This seems to happen towards the end of my phosphating process.
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Im tring to do some trouble shooting has anyone come across a situation while doing phosphating I have had a white flakey material condensing and suspended in the hot water/phosphate solution ? This seems to happen towards the end of my phosphating process.
Probably too strong a phosphoric acid mix or a temperature drop. I assume the items were bead blasted first, and then untouched by human hands (use gloves for handling) or not subjected to other "treatments".
I use a "metal black" solution from Eastwood to get a dark shade on hardware prior to the phosphoric bath.
Jim
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Happens to me all the time. I'm very careful about mix ratios and cleanliness.
It doesn't appear to do anything, but I do a post clean of the bolts in straight alcohol.
Then into WD.
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Jim, Bill thanks for the replys I have been carefull with keeping clean and acid amounts with very good results but I didnt remember anyone mentioning the white flakes before Im trying some larger parts this week including some leaf springs and wanted to give it my best effort.
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It's been a while since I did a batch, but the "cooking" time in the phosphoric bath is also critical. If I left parts in for a full ten minutes they got "white crystals" on them. For that reason, I usually do a test bolt for the full time to see what happens.
Jim
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I wanted to share the results of some phosphating I finished today the springs were glass beaded and cleaned of and remaining media I kept the solution temp at 200* thinking the mass of the parts may have brought down the temp and it worked out great Im very happy with the color and finish. The sheet metal and 2 bends was 175 I was able to weld it myself the the crab pot heater was 80 delivered and I used about 7 dollars in LPG it was an interesting challenge. I tested oil on a small part and I feel good the color will become very uinform.
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I wanted to share the results of some phosphating I finished today the springs were glass beaded and cleaned of and remaining media I kept the solution temp at 200* thinking the mass of the parts may have brought down the temp and it worked out great Im very happy with the color and finish. The sheet metal and 2 bends was 175 I was able to weld it myself the the crab pot heater was 80 delivered and I used about 7 dollars in LPG it was an interesting challenge. I tested oil on a small part and I feel good the color will become very uinform.
Very nice - Thanks for sharing :)
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I like it.
Jim
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Just wanted to share the info Bob got me. I think this applies here.
Here is the link for the website for Palmetto Enterprises
https://www.palmettoenterprisesparkerizing.com/
And here is the link for the pdf for the zinc phosphating process they posted
https://www.palmettoenterprisesparkerizing.com/_files/ugd/6623bf_da755b3fa0ce4cfcbaacd4ca73ad99bc.pdf