ConcoursMustang Forums

Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Processes, Products & Techniques => Topic started by: rockhouse66 on May 12, 2014, 11:07:18 AM

Title: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: rockhouse66 on May 12, 2014, 11:07:18 AM
I have rescued some reproduction Autolite batteries by replacing the internals.  The idea and techniques for doing this originally came from Forum member John Murphy.  There are some tricks to this, so I documented the last one I did to assist others in performing the job.

Thanks to encouragement and formatting assistance from Marcus, and support from Jeff, the "how to" on this is now available in the Library section.  Note that the website mentioned as a source for the replacement battery is no longer active.  Also, it is possible to do this using a lug top battery but it is more difficult, and especially so when doing the smaller batteries (Gr. 22 & Gr. 24) due to the smaller case.  However, it can be done because a friend recently did this on his priceless Gr. 22 case using a lug top style battery.  I welcome feedback and corrections from those who use this resource.

Here are links to both the write-up and the Library section where it resides:

http://concoursmustang.com/speegle/Articles/Autolite%20Group%2027%20Battery%20Rebuild.pdf

http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=5719.0

Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 12, 2014, 12:51:56 PM
I have rescued some reproduction Autolite batteries by replacing the internals.  The idea and techniques for doing this originally came from Forum member John Murphy.  There are some tricks to this, so I documented the last one I did to assist others in performing the job.

Thanks to encouragement and formatting assistance from Marcus, and support from Jeff, the "how to" on this is now available in the Library section.  Note that the website mentioned as a source for the replacement battery is no longer active.  Also, it is possible to do this using a lug top battery but it is more difficult, and especially so when doing the smaller batteries (Gr. 22 & Gr. 24) due to the smaller case.  However, it can be done because a friend recently did this on his priceless Gr. 22 case using a lug top style battery.  I welcome feedback and corrections from those who use this resource.

Here are links to both the write-up and the Library section where it resides:

http://concoursmustang.com/speegle/Articles/Autolite%20Group%2027%20Battery%20Rebuild.pdf

http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=5719.0
Jim, I applaud your effort and think you did a good job of writing the article. I have done this many times myself but have always cut out the inside edge bottom instead of the top. One of the biggest advantages are that on the bottom you can make a cut mistake and not be noticeable . When cutting the top off you have one chance to make a perfectly straight cut . That can be challenging even with a band saw let alone by hand. Any irregular cut will be noticable . Even with a perfect cut you may or may not be able to tell that there was a cut upon close examination on a top side cut . Another advantage is that you do not alter the outside appearnce when going in the bottom inside edge way. There will always be a slight difference in height between the details on the side of the case because of the extra material removed by the saw blade when cutting off the top.  I use a cut off saw when cutting out the inside edge of the bottom. It throws up a lot of dust so you need to use mask. Another advantage is when cutting from the bottom you gain the extra height that eliminating the inside bottom gives you. I have always found that you can use all of the extra height inside you can get regardless of hidden battery used.  The point is making it look like it hasn't been done . This point can be accomplished better by going in the bottom side cut way. Ether method takes the same amount of steps and time .Cutting off the top adds a lot more stress. Even more if you are using  original battery. I think it will be much easier to ruin the look of a battery cutting the top off plus you will always lose little bit of height and appearance which my or may not be noticable . This critique is meant to add to a already informative and well done how to article. If nothing else it gives another option.       
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: rockhouse66 on May 12, 2014, 01:52:44 PM
Bob - thank you for your comments.  Yes, I agree, cutting the bottom is an option.  Seems it would make it awkward to work on the underside of the posts to make your attachments though?  Do you then replace the bottom with something, or just let the replacement battery sit on the tray and drop the case over the top?  The extra height you gain cutting the bottom could be important in getting it all to fit, especially on a Gr. 22 or Gr. 24 size case.

I have found that the lip under the band at the top of the case does a great job of disguising the cut when you do it my way and I haven't had issues making a straight cut, but I can certainly see where this could go wrong.  Should be a (messy!) piece of cake though with a band saw (which I don't have).
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 12, 2014, 03:54:41 PM
Bob - thank you for your comments.  Yes, I agree, cutting the bottom is an option.  Seems it would make it awkward to work on the underside of the posts to make your attachments though?  Do you then replace the bottom with something, or just let the replacement battery sit on the tray and drop the case over the top?  The extra height you gain cutting the bottom could be important in getting it all to fit, especially on a Gr. 22 or Gr. 24 size case.

I have found that the lip under the band at the top of the case does a great job of disguising the cut when you do it my way and I haven't had issues making a straight cut, but I can certainly see where this could go wrong.  Should be a (messy!) piece of cake though with a band saw (which I don't have).
Not much more awkward then connecting from the top. No replacement bottom it sits on the original sides without a bottom. You let the hidden bat sit in the tray and the other on top of it. You can even rig it up so so  a bracket plate  holds it all together with 2 bolts secured In two of the vent cap holes.not nessasary but slick.I have done it both ways . With many successful conversions this bottom way works best for me. I have only done this on multiple thousand dollar batteries so you can understand my concern to not compromise the out side look.I will try the repro conversion in the future as they get more expensive.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: Rsanter on May 12, 2014, 05:12:16 PM
Good writeup
I have though and wondered why someone dosent just make a case only that we can drop a battery into so it looks correct and they don't have to go through the trouble of actually making a battery. Just the case

I would recommend that you look at some of the race car batteries. They are similar to what you used but are rated in CCA and are very powerful. They are not cheap but may do a better job cranking a big block

Bob
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: rockhouse66 on May 12, 2014, 06:18:09 PM
I would recommend that you look at some of the race car batteries. They are similar to what you used but are rated in CCA and are very powerful. They are not cheap but may do a better job cranking a big block
Bob

Bob - thanks for the comments.  I know there are some pretty trick, small batteries out there, but at some point if the battery is expensive, the whole project isn't worth doing.  If you aren't saving money by doing all of this work, you might as well buy one of the new Turbo Start repros which are quite powerful.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: J_Speegle on May 12, 2014, 08:04:43 PM
Thanks for the info and article

Been trying to get to this task as I've got a shot repo Grp 27 gel and rather than buy another new one I was just thinking of reusing the case

Anyone cut open a gel battery yet ?
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: tim_morrison82 on May 12, 2014, 08:39:18 PM
I have a display battery that has no internals that I want to do this to. im hoping the top isnt glued completely on. its an older group 24 repro one. if I get it open I will document what the internals are like.

cheers for the writeup!
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: Murf on May 12, 2014, 11:31:06 PM
I would like to add a few words to this.  Having done this on a number of reproduction batteries, one will find some that do not have this type of wet cell.  Some reproduction batteries are AGM (absorbed glass mat) and are a little easier to work on.  Some were built with a small AGM battery inside and if you find one of those they are so easily rebuilt you will be finished in almost no time.  Those that are AGM and those that have a smaller battery inside can easily be identified by trying to twist off the red caps- the AGM type will have caps that ARE NOT removable.  I find them on occasion and they are getting more plentiful.  Friends bring me their "corpse" battery to stuff with a wheelchair battery now and then and the AGM types are starting to fail so more and more candidates for rebuilding are of that type.  Don't be afraid to tackle them, Jims write up covers all of the important steps. In regard to cutting the top off, do as Jim suggests and use a hacksaw and cut right below the ledge of the top part.  The hacksaw removes such a tiny amount of material that one cannot tell the battery is shorter, probably only removes about .030 inch if you watch what you are doing.  (a band saw will remove significantly more material but is certainly quicker)  As for reattaching the top portion after working your magic on the inside I have found that construction adhesive is both strong , not costly and universally available.  I use masking tape on both the edge of the top cover and the case where the top mates so any excess that squeezes out will be on the masking tape, not on the case.  If you use construction adhesive it probably will leave a light tan or grey parting line right under the ledge that quickly can be converted to the same black as the case by using a magic marker and wiping the excess from the case after application.  I think you will be surprised how invisible the seam of construction adhesive can be.  And that type of adhesive can be applied in a continuous bead around the perimeter of the sliced area and I can attest that it is more than strong enough to allow your newly rebuilt Autolite battery to be picked up, carried and reinstalled in the car with a normal battery strap type carrier - just let the adhesive dry 24 hours or so or whatever the instructions on the tube advise for 100% strength. If after several years you need to install another battery inside of the Autolite shell the construction adhesive is very easy to cut for your next rebuild. Finally, I think that you will be surprised at the cranking power of the 12-350 style wheelchair battery. I have been unlucky enough to have a timing chain slip hundreds of miles from home on a Saturday night and that little battery lasted while figuring out the problem, making the repairs and still starting the repaired motor with no noticeable decrease in cranking speed.  Finally, I have found that keeping this type of battery fully charged during winter storage can really prolong their life - having just redone a couple that were originally converted to the wheelchair battery either four or five years ago.  I charge them on the first day of each month with a charger specifically manufactured for AGM type batteries but probably a normal 2 amp self regulating charger would be sufficient. A big thanks to Jim for writing this and the images to illustrate how it is done. 
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: ajd350 on May 18, 2014, 11:41:17 PM
I have two cars running on 350CCA garden tractor batteries in gutted 24F cases. Both are 289s, one a K-code. Both were done in the same manner as Bob described. One was a lead-acid conversion (very messy), the other was a dead AGM type that was surrounded by a potting compound. Hard to deal with, but worth it. I got 3 1/2 years out of the first one and it always works fine. When the tractor battery finally died, I changed it in the Sears parking lot, swapping the shell with just a couple of wrenches. You can get them nearly anywhere and they are cheap. No special charger needed.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: roddster on July 03, 2014, 05:20:17 AM
  I have a gutted 68 group 22 battery.    The bottom is cut out and cables are attached to the bottom of the old posts.  A Mazda Miata battery fits ip inside it.  Starts my 289 HiPo just fine.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: sgl66 on October 08, 2016, 12:35:26 AM
I'm considering converting an old group 24 and wanted to check if Miata, lawn tractor or other style batteries have been proven over time to perform better or worse than others?

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: rockhouse66 on October 08, 2016, 09:26:39 AM
I recently converted a Gr. 27 with one of these Harley batteries.  It is too tall for the case by a small amount, so I cut a hole in the bottom just large enough for the battery and glued a piece of Masonite to the bottom.  Removal of the thickness of the case bottom was just enough to fit the battery.  I can't say for certain that it actually performs better than a wheel chair battery but it has better specs and is designed for automotive type service.  The link is typical of these - there are several brands.  Probably all made by the same Chinese factory.

http://www.batterymart.com/p-mtx-30l-mega-crank-30l-battery.html
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 08, 2016, 11:44:02 AM
FYI I haven't seen the battery inside a battery successfully used on a big block application for other then a show car application.If someone was planning on this as a alternative to buying a reproduction battery for other then show applications expect limitations. Regardless of the hidden battery they don't typically have the capacity when used to start a hot big block in a driven application. You can get this to work for a small block for most situations as long as you don't have expectations that it will work as good as a regular 24 in a heavy duty situation/occurrence. Good alternative if you have realistic expectations.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: Bossbill on November 08, 2017, 01:38:10 PM
I run Deka batteries in the race car. A very reliable "dry" mat battery that comes in a great number of sizes/CCAs.
In the last 8 years I've only replaced one due to my error of leaving the transponder on for 4 months!

If I remember to turn the master switch off it will crank my engine after many months of sitting inside
a car trailer without a charger.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: rrenz on November 11, 2017, 08:36:16 PM
Interesting that this post popped back up. I was just reading through all of the battery threads trying to decide on a battery. Need a Group 24 for my 66 coupe. Have never heard anything good about these batteries. My Exide has begun to leak and is quite old. Looking to get rid of the topper and get a reproduction battery. Has there been any kind of advancements with these things at all? Can anyone suggest which is better? Antique auto battery or restoration battery? I read a thread on the NCRS forum I believe about how someone had to warranty their restoration battery and were told to contact antique auto battery. Are these companies affiliated somehow?
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: rockhouse66 on November 11, 2017, 09:49:08 PM
Restoration is no longer in this business.  Antique Auto Battery is the only source.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: AU SNK on November 15, 2021, 10:53:55 AM
Bringing up this old post, I have already gutted my old repo battery and looking for a battery to put in it. Can someone who has done it recently recommend a good wheel chair AGM batteryor other type to use?


Thanks,
Russell
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: rockhouse66 on November 15, 2021, 11:30:56 AM
The last two I did I have used a Renegade Wicked Start motorcycle battery.  It has more CCA than a wheelchair battery.  It is a bit too tall for the gutted case so the bottom has to be cut out to lower the top a little.  I then glue a piece of masonite on the bottom to be able to lift the battery by the top.


Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: AU SNK on November 15, 2021, 07:07:15 PM
Thanks,  DO you recall the model number of the battery? Also what gauge wire did you use to go between the 2 batteries?
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: rockhouse66 on November 15, 2021, 08:11:32 PM
I have been looking for my ordering info but no luck so far.  I am away from home so that makes it more difficult.  You may just have to figure it out from the dimensions.  They advertise 660 CCA but I am skeptical.

EDIT:  Here is link to what I am using.  I don't know why the link is so tiny but if you click it will open. They say unavailable until December.


https://powersportbatteries.com/harley-davidson-motorcycle-batteries/21746-harley-davidson-66010-97c-30ah-600cca-motorcycle-battery-upgrade.html (https://powersportbatteries.com/harley-davidson-motorcycle-batteries/21746-harley-davidson-66010-97c-30ah-600cca-motorcycle-battery-upgrade.html)


As far as the cables, I use welding cables because they are quite flexible.  Maybe this will help.


Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: AU SNK on November 15, 2021, 09:37:29 PM
Thank you
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: Mike_B_SVT on November 15, 2021, 11:41:13 PM
That's very cool, and a great way to re-use an old repro battery!

But jeez, how long do we have to wait for someone to just repop a G27 battery topper?  >.<
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: Bossbill on November 16, 2021, 11:06:44 AM
Although I suggested a Deka battery earlier, the go-to battery in racing circles for extreme duty is the Odyssey battery. Very high power to size.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: rockhouse66 on November 16, 2021, 04:52:51 PM
Bill
I have heard people mention using the Odyssey before and also a Miata battery, but I have yet to find either that were small enough to go inside the case.  Would love some details if you or anyone else have done this with an Odyssey.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: AU SNK on December 05, 2021, 03:30:45 PM
Just an FYI you can find cables already made up with terminal ends on them from Amazon.

Still researching batteries, what is the lowest cranking amps that is safe to use?
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: 67gtasanjose on February 22, 2022, 12:15:07 PM
I believe this has come up in another thread but if you want to retrofit another battery into an ALREADY GUTTED case,, call Va. CLASSIC MUSTANG.
://www.virginiaclassicmustang.com/mobile/Autolite-Battery-Case-Only-Group-24-P482620.aspx

I will add that she said it was the last one but my guess is that more can be ordered.
These Dummy Hull battery cases cost about $200 ONE TIME.
The one I received, had the top lid hot-glued on but the box it arrived in stated UNGLUED WITH TERMINALS.

TURBO START  made these, Turbostart also sells batteries that fit inside for about $220 (with a 3yr. Warranty).
S12V975 for example. It measures 5.3"x7.9"?6.7"
(the empty shell measures 6"x9.5"x7" deep INSIDE)
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: gimmea250swb on May 28, 2023, 11:47:58 AM
My autolite finally gave up. Could someone recommend a good internal battery on the market now? My old battery had something like this, but it was unlabeled.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005CLPOQM?linkCode=ll1&tag=batteryequivalents-20&linkId=1dbab1bb299d25c14fdb6a33eb511da5&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl&th=1

How do you guys keep a charge? I kept mine on a trickle charger not knowing there was an internal battery and wonder if that?s what killed it.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: rockhouse66 on May 28, 2023, 01:40:22 PM
I think the last one I used was the link below.  Going from memory so double check the dimensions.  It is slightly too tall unless you cut the bottom out of the case.  I cut the bottom just big enough for the battery so there was some case left around it and glued a piece of Masonite to the bottom of the case.  This provided enough room for the battery and also kept it from shifting around in the case.


http://www.azbatterystore.com/product.cgi?group=7827&product=27546 (http://www.azbatterystore.com/product.cgi?group=7827&product=27546)
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: hopey on October 09, 2023, 01:51:49 PM
Having seen guys on the forum here do a rebuild, I thought I would do similar but with a modern lithium 12V automotive/motorcycle/ATV batteries plus incorporate a remote disconnect.

1. Empty and dispose of old acid from your battery. Use baking soda mixed with water to neutralize what's left in the case. Honestly this was the hardest messiest part, took over a week for the battery to stop fizzing. Do it in a well ventilated area.

2. Carefully cut around the outside of the battery just below the top flange. I used a cheap Japanese pull saw, $7 at harbor freight. Did a great job minimal mess.

3. Using a paint scraper and hammer, cut through the lead connections and plastic between cells before you can remove the top. Try and avoid damage to the two main battery posts as you need these later.

4. Gut your battery. Pliers and wood chisels are an easy way to break off and clean away the plastic dividers between cells.

5. Go to Walmart or your local battery store and get a lithium 12V battery. I managed to find a 700A one at Walmart on clearance that just fits inside- height being my limitation. These are very light, I'm guessing less than a couple lbs. Note most modern automotive/motorcycle lithium batteries have an inbuilt Battery Management System BMS. My charging system is modern alternator and voltage regulator internals installed in concours housings. Make sure your charging system output meets the requirement of the lithium battery BMS.

6. I installed a plastic retainer to hold my battery. I used a 3/8 thick plastic sheet from hardware store and JB plastic weld to hold it in place.

7. I ordered some welding cable and lugs from Amazon. I also purchased a remote disconnect solenoid that was small enough to fit inside the battery case.

8. Installed battery, wired it up and tested all ok. Hardest part is drilling and tapping the original battery posts on the underside to accept battery cable connection.

9. Used JB plastic weld install plastic threaded inserts inside battery and used plastic threaded screws from local hardware store to secure the battery top- I did it through the outside two fill caps so they would be hidden.

10. Ran a bead of black silicone around the top and secured it all in place.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: hopey on October 09, 2023, 01:52:38 PM
4 more photos
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: hopey on October 09, 2023, 01:53:24 PM
Final 4 photos
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: J_Speegle on October 09, 2023, 05:26:05 PM
Thanks. If you would it might be nice and helpful to post a picture of the end results. Sure it looks just fine and like what every it looked like before the cutting and fitting but a finished shot would just maybe help motivate some additional people to try it.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: hopey on October 09, 2023, 09:51:27 PM
The last photo is the finished reassembled battery. It looks like it did before I started.

Here it is installed at the recent MCA Grand National show where it was awarded concours trailered gold again.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 09, 2023, 10:39:42 PM
Did the judges miss that you had the different style earlier battery caps on a 70 Boss battery?
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: hopey on October 10, 2023, 10:13:47 AM
Did the judges miss that you had the different style earlier battery caps on a 70 Boss battery?

I guess so Bob. It is entered in Concours Trailered not thoroughbred so judged to their written standard ie it is a functional Autolite reproduction 24F - not a 22F that would have originally been installed. What should they be?
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 10, 2023, 11:29:04 PM
I guess so Bob. It is entered in Concours Trailered not thoroughbred so judged to their written standard ie it is a functional Autolite reproduction 24F - not a 22F that would have originally been installed. What should they be?
Here is the different style cap next to the early cap.
Title: Re: Battery Rebuild Writeup
Post by: hopey on October 11, 2023, 10:52:07 PM
Thanks Bob, I will see if I can source those.