Author Topic: Concours judging concensious question  (Read 841 times)

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2017, 03:04:14 AM »
Agreed not suggesting extra points and rewards for owners/builders choosing to do extra things like we do in other classes.


Playing devils advocate with the engineering number part of the discussion. Where are the guidelines related to engineering numbers stated?  Don't recall a reference to engineering numbers but instead dates.

And I would guess that, trying to be consistent, as it is been posed judges would ignore a

- large C9OE-xxxxx engineering number on the top of an intake installed on a 65 if all other details (painted engine color, provisions for senders, brackets and so on being the same) on a 66
- an air cleaner service sticker calling out a different filter 
- a D2 starter solenoid in place of a C7 version
- a non Carlite window  or windshield
- a Midas stamped muffler if it matched the size, shape and material as a Fuller or original   

Would each be ok and overlooked? Since I can recall where we've deducted for most of these when we've judged together. :) Other than the intake example. Sure there are more.

Trying to think of an example or time when this came up or was in play when we have judged - example you wanting to ignore a C8ZZ fuel sender on a 65 for example. 

Not sure of what mixed signals your referring to?  If we go back to your original question I think we're pretty close - either they get over looked (not noticed) or they are a very very small detail when weighed against all the other details. Might be as close as you can get and us all still being humans

Almost all or all of the questions we respond to in helping out entrants normally seem to focus on what is correct for the cars not what "I" can get by with. When referring to what to expect in judging (other than the areas where there is a range of acceptable details as there were originally) its always been best IMHO to focus on how the cars were originally built, if the part is not available or is in poor condition prepare the owner/builder that if seen, there might be a deduction. This has been supported and improved (from the point of the entrant) by the teaching of the weighted point deduction practice over the older "light switch" practice when an imbalance of points were deducted or ignored.
large C9OE-xxxxx engineering number on the top of an intake installed on a 65 if all other details (painted engine color, provisions for senders, brackets and so on being the same) on a 66 -for consistency I would probably bend and except this
- an air cleaner service sticker calling out a different filter - that's easy I wouldn't accept it because it is a incorrect sticker and not a engineering number
- a D2 starter solenoid in place of a C7 version - as long as finish /stud and thread size /nut was consistent I would be compelled to accept that on a 67 on up car that used the same style. The exception would be some 69/70 Dearborn cars.
- a non Carlite window  or windshield -another easy one. I would not accept it because it is in the current rules as mandatory.
- a Midas stamped muffler if it matched the size, shape and material as a Fuller or original - disregarding stamping if another muffler was a exact match in shape, finish and attachment as original it would be the same as Fullers and therefore acceptable (i don't see that happening anytime soon)
Trying to think of an example or time when this came up or was in play when we have judged - example you wanting to ignore a C8ZZ fuel sender on a 65 for example. Jeff you must have me mixed up with another because the 3/8 C8 sender on a 65 that is supposed to be 5/16 doesn't meet my point of view criteria or maybe I was in the sun too long.                                                                                                                                                       Jeff, I agree with your advising philosophy . I judge a certain way because it is only fair in my mind given the judging guidelines entrants are given to abide by. If the judging rules are change to reflect a more precise direction I will change the way I judge for that venue. Until then i see it as a obligation to do what I think is fair within the parameters of the guidelines. When I advise people building on the other hand I tell them the way it is done on the assemblyline. I don't volunteer what they can get by with but would tell them if they asked directly but I don't seemed to get asked the short cut questions ether.           
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline ruppstang

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2017, 10:03:21 AM »
I have less experience judging than those that have posted here but here is my experance. I do not go looking for engineering numbers when judging but when there is one that is in your face like a incorrect intake prefix number I would deduct for it. As for the fuel pump I often need to use magnifying glasses to find number when it is in my hand. Given the number of division 2 cars to judge typically there is not time to go looking for engineering numbers, a division 1 car can take a team of judges a half of a day to judge.

A solenoid was mentioned above, here are the 67-68 rules.

  C. Starter Solenoid: Black Autolite. Correct with part number (C6AF- or C7AF-) on passenger side inner fender panel near the battery and before the shock tower .............................................. 2
Workmanship, condition and cleanliness ......................................................................................... 1

I do not see how to ignore this.

Here are the shock rules.

M. Shock Absorbers: Black Autolite with phosphate washer and tooth nuts .............................. 4
Driven Exception:
Black Motorcraft ...no deduction
Black Non-Ford ...................................................................................... mandatory 2 pt deduction
Workmanship, condition and cleanliness ......................................................................................... 2

I look for the Autolite stamp not correct engineering numbers. If I happened to see a C9 on a 68 car I would deduct for it. ( a smart restored would be sure that I would not see the C9)  ;)

IMHO Concours Trailered or division 2 cars are nearly the same as Tbreds except reproduced parts are excepted given that they have the same fit, finish and operation as originals. Also Engineering and date codes are not searched for and verified. That is a very big difference.

Offline mikeljgt500kr

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2017, 10:35:01 AM »
I have to say that as a master judge with another organization, I find this discussion fascinating.
I don't always downshift, but when I do it is near a Prius so they can hear me hurting the environment.

Offline ChrisV289

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2017, 12:08:35 PM »
This reminds me of what I've dealt with GTOAA judges on a GTO Judge I helped restore for the past 2 years. They currently don't have an equivalent of a T-bred class in their organization, but they do a concours and in there they do look for engineering numbers, date codes, fit, and finish.  They have a team of 4-5 judges and each judge has a different section of the car they specialize in.  One has the engine bay where he will crawl underneath and look at the block codes.  He will also look at the intake manifold, exhaust manifolds, water pump, starter, alternator, and carburetor and make sure the numbers are correct and the date code.  Then he will focus on the firewall, and inner fenders.  One guy will be underneath the car the whole time looking at the undercarriage, one will be inside the car, and one looks at the exterior.  They probably spend an hour on the car if not more. They do deduct for reproduction parts regardless.  For instance, we got deducted for the rear bumper because the original after being beat to crap from previous owners did not fit.  The reproduction fit fine, only difference; no date code stamped behind the license plate frame.  They do not like reproduction parts even though AMES Performance is their biggest sponsor.

I've only judged at three shows so far and I wouldn't mind looking for engineering numbers and date codes.  When judging with Mike M on a car I don't remember if we deducted or made mention that a Dearborn car had a San Jose radiator. 
Chris
1965 Honey Gold Fastback

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2017, 03:18:50 PM »
I have less experience judging than those that have posted here but here is my experance. I do not go looking for engineering numbers when judging but when there is one that is in your face like a incorrect intake prefix number I would deduct for it. As for the fuel pump I often need to use magnifying glasses to find number when it is in my hand. Given the number of division 2 cars to judge typically there is not time to go looking for engineering numbers, a division 1 car can take a team of judges a half of a day to judge.

A solenoid was mentioned above, here are the 67-68 rules.

  C. Starter Solenoid: Black Autolite. Correct with part number (C6AF- or C7AF-) on passenger side inner fender panel near the battery and before the shock tower .............................................. 2
Workmanship, condition and cleanliness ......................................................................................... 1

I do not see how to ignore this.

Here are the shock rules.

M. Shock Absorbers: Black Autolite with phosphate washer and tooth nuts .............................. 4
Driven Exception:
Black Motorcraft ...no deduction
Black Non-Ford ...................................................................................... mandatory 2 pt deduction
Workmanship, condition and cleanliness ......................................................................................... 2

I look for the Autolite stamp not correct engineering numbers. If I happened to see a C9 on a 68 car I would deduct for it. ( a smart restored would be sure that I would not see the C9)  ;)

IMHO Concours Trailered or division 2 cars are nearly the same as Tbreds except reproduced parts are excepted given that they have the same fit, finish and operation as originals. Also Engineering and date codes are not searched for and verified. That is a very big difference.
Thanks for pointing those out. That takes the away the uncertainty .
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2017, 04:06:15 PM »
The question is how the shortcomings are perceived. As long as the shape and finish are achieved isn't expecting a correct engineering number and deducting for, if not present being heavy handed given there is nothing in the guidelines/rules that designates there to be? 

No I believe your question was for others and I am wondering the consensus of how relevant a engineering number is for this class on a part given the shape and finish are consistent with assemblyline look?

Don't see how considering a very small deduction that by itself will likely never amount to a deduction, one eight of a point in some sections, would be considered heavy handed considering the time and effort owners and builders spend getting the details correct on these cars.

   Expecting the correct engineering numbers is a slippery slop toward less reproduction allowed and  too much like thoroughbred expectations which will discourage participation and not encourage it IMO.

Didn't think our task as judges or as an organization was to ensure that more reproduction parts are sold or used - unless there is a plan I'm not aware of worked out with the sponsors of the club as there was in the past.

Since we have considered them in the past in some cases and they are typically correct   (approximately) 98% of the time this practice has not stifled the participation, the investment nor the enthusiasm to participate as entry numbers show. 

To continue the devils advocate role just once more so that we can explore

   


   - an air cleaner service sticker calling out a different filter -

 that's easy I wouldn't accept it because it is a incorrect sticker and not a engineering number

In this example isn't the decal identical but the engineering number of the replacement filter is different?  And to be more exact, only two numbers.


- a D2 starter solenoid in place of a C7 version -

as long as finish /stud and thread size /nut was consistent I would be compelled to accept that on a 67 on up car that used the same style. The exception would be some 69/70 Dearborn cars. 

This would be a change considering the number of times we've deducted for that in the past. 


Trying to think of an example or time when this came up or was in play when we have judged - example you wanting to ignore a C8ZZ fuel sender on a 65 for example. 

 Jeff you must have me mixed up with another because the 3/8 C8 sender on a 65 that is supposed to be 5/16 doesn't meet my point of view criteria or maybe I was in the sun too long.
                                                                                                                               

I can at least recall one specific car and show sure there are more if we focused on them together. In any case some might consider deducting for a 1/6"th of an inch over an approximate 2" run - heavy handed.

Guess to be consistent currently or in the future you would not deduct for non-HiPo heads at a show on a k code equipped 67 GT350? For others these can be determined by a visible engineering two digit number


Of course we could go though every part int he car and I believe that we would find examples of where we have and had not looked at these details. Often due to not being able to see them with out mirrors, flashlights or touching (things all three organizations did not have in common in the past).

Going back to your original question the honest answer (based on the guidelines and past practice) yes.
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2017, 06:16:54 PM »
Jeff, Marti beat you to the punch on the solenoid engineering number question . It is in the rules. I have always deducted before as you mentioned but was answering your posed question on if the exact same shape with a different engineering number would there be a deduction given if one engineering number is ignored (all things being equal) all should be or vice versa. Your hipo head comparison does not fall into the lines we are discussing because the two digit number system first is not a engineering number but a means of identification which much like a overall shape or finish gives it the qualifying assemblyline look for a hipo. I purposely am referring to items that can be identified as looking the way they are supposed to regardless of engineering number or not. I am getting a impression that that some would rather see a engineering number disappear rather then to have a incorrect one C8 on a 66 application etc. on all of the things that are not specifically spelled out in the judging guidelines. Since there are things that are spelled out in the rules engineering wise it would seem that other parts that don't have specific engineering numbers spelled out in the rules would logically be given a pass as long as they are the correct shape and finish. I am playing devil advocate also given I am typically on the stricter side of the conversation typically.   
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2017, 07:04:04 PM »
Jeff, Marti beat you to the punch on the solenoid engineering number question .

Yes some of us get up earlier than others or are in earlier time zones.


 
................ Your hipo head comparison does not fall into the lines we are discussing because the two digit number system first is not a engineering number but a means of identification which much like a overall shape or finish gives it the qualifying assemblyline look for a hipo. I purposely am referring to items that can be identified as looking the way they are supposed to regardless of engineering number or not............

Think your drawing a pretty thin line between what your describing as a identification number and an engineering number used to identify a part

Since there are things that are spelled out in the rules engineering wise it would seem that other parts that don't have specific engineering numbers spelled out in the rules would logically be given a pass as long as they are the correct shape and finish.

Not sure if this is a what if or what you believe should be the practice in the future - thought the thread was about how others thought about your questions.

Think that goes against what has been our practice and what we've both stated in earlier posts and discussions since we are limited in space in the judging rules not every part, details and nuance can be included within the space. Sure examples of these can be produced.


................ I am playing devil advocate also given I am typically on the stricter side of the conversation typically.   

We're repeating in public the "what if " back and forth we all do when discussing the possibilities and situations. Often ones we have never seen or faced but might. Considering your intent as stated I think you have received honest and truthful responses to

"...... how relevant a engineering number is for this class on a part given the shape and finish are consistent with assemblyline look?  "
"Are there parts that should be treated differently in this regard and if so why? "

Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline PerkinsRestoration

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2017, 08:05:53 PM »
[quote author=ruppstang link=topic

IMHO Concours Trailered or division 2 cars are nearly the same as Tbreds except reproduced parts are excepted given that they have the same fit, finish and operation as originals. Also Engineering and date codes are not searched for and verified. That is a very big difference.
[/quote]

 Marti, I have to disagree here. There are some  Div. II cars that have areas of Thoroughbred quality craft-manship however it is not the  standard of excellence in Div.II or trailered concours. For example in THB class paint and body is judged tighter than trailered concours. Orange peel, Stamping marks in the metal in door jams and spotwelded  panels are closely inspected. Panel repair or replacement is scrutinized closely. Date codes in sheet metal are checked and must be present. Undercarriage primer must have factory appearing runs and drips. Excessive paint or filler on engine bay sheet metal or engine and attaching parts that remove factory date codes or stamping marks in the metal is evaluated. In short most first generation Mustangs do not have a body good enough to be a candidate for a THB restoration regardless who restores the car.

  The restoration of Natural metal parts is another aspect of restoration that differs drastically between THB and trailered concours. Rust pitted natural parts such as suspension parts , rear springs , drive shafts etc. can be restored using natural type paints in trailered concours, but no paints in THB class. Even painted parts such as rear axle housings if pitted and pits filled you loose the stamping marks in the metal. Not an issue in trailered concours but an issue in THB class.I doubt we will be checking for machined surfaces on the rear end assembly any time soon in trailered concours.. Replacing every pitted part on most Mustangs is not an option for many reasons, cost availability, time restraints etc.

 Fasteners and hardware. Most if not all reproduction fasteners and standard parts are not acceptable in THB class. Most if not all reproduction fasteners and standard parts are considered concours correct in trailered concours classes. Think about it, no AMK hardware?

  Workmanship and attention to detail is 50% of THB judging sheets! The other Fifty percent is parts.

Offline markb0729

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2017, 09:53:49 PM »
Excellent insight into the judging process and why there can be variation among the judges.  My understanding of Concours trailered vs Thoroughbred restorations is pretty much summed up in what Mr. Perkins said.  Judging should be based on the rules set forth for the class being judged.  Tough job if I do say so.  Thanks to all for your thoughts.  Good food for thought and just makes the hobby better hearing from the experts!
65 Dearborn Built Fastback
Approximate Build Date, September 2, 1964
289 4V, C4, PS, PB, No A/C

Offline 1969 Cale II

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2017, 11:32:14 PM »
I find this discussion interesting. As A Cyclone owner who went to great lengths to make my car factory perfect, I don't see me getting any extra points with the way the judges for these cars go. The cars that get high marks makes my car go over 100 percent. I wish these judges had the knowledge you guy have in giving points where points are due.

Offline mikeljgt500kr

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2017, 12:51:22 AM »
Quote from: ruppstang link=topic



  Workmanship and attention to detail is 50% of THB judging sheets! The other Fifty percent is parts.
[/quote

I had thought at least 50% was cleanliness......... :)
I don't always downshift, but when I do it is near a Prius so they can hear me hurting the environment.

Offline TLea

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2017, 09:43:37 AM »
If engineering numbers are not to be considered then shouldnt the same be true for manufacturers markings? Washer bottle/bags are a great example. A 68 washer bottle without the FoMoCo logo is barely noticeable but leave it  of a bag and it stands out like a sore thumb.
Tim Lea  Shelby concours judge MCA, SAAC, Mid America

Offline TLea

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2017, 11:33:08 AM »
[quote author=ruppstang link=topic

IMHO Concours Trailered or division 2 cars are nearly the same as Tbreds except reproduced parts are excepted given that they have the same fit, finish and operation as originals. Also Engineering and date codes are not searched for and verified. That is a very big difference.



  The restoration of Natural metal parts is another aspect of restoration that differs drastically between THB and trailered concours. Rust pitted natural parts such as suspension parts , rear springs , drive shafts etc. can be restored using natural type paints in trailered concours, but gno paints in THB class. Even painted parts such as rear axle housings if pitted and pits filled you loose the stamping marks in the metal. Not an issue in trailered concours but an issue in THB class.I doubt we will be checking for machined surfaces on the rear end assembly any time soon in trailered concours.. Replacing every pitted part on most Mustangs is not an option for many reasons, cost availability, time restraints etc.
Im not sure I totally agree on the body and paint but will save that for another discussion. If I understand you correctly what you were saying here is pitted components on a concours trailered car are acceptable  if the pits have been filled? Is that correct
Tim Lea  Shelby concours judge MCA, SAAC, Mid America

Offline PerkinsRestoration

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Re: Concours judging concensious question
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2017, 03:46:08 PM »
Im not sure I totally agree on the body and paint but will save that for another discussion. If I understand you correctly what you were saying here is pitted components on a concours trailered car are acceptable  if the pits have been filled? Is that correct


  What I said is in THB class pitted parts or lack of date codes or stamping marks due to filling of pitted metal is not concours correct. In trailered concours class date codes and stamping marks in metal are not scrutinized. Minor pitting of undercarriage components in trailered concours is usually not scrutinized.  If you start with a rusty pitted undercarriage you either have pitted sheet metal or sheet metal filled with filler and primer with no visible date codes or stamping marks. Same applies for axle housings, backing plates, 3rd members, disc brake parts etc.  For these reasons rusty cars are not good candidates for a Thoroughbred restoration.