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Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Misc Items => Topic started by: CharlesTurner on October 20, 2016, 12:39:12 PM

Title: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: CharlesTurner on October 20, 2016, 12:39:12 PM
I thought any 1st generation car that had wheel covers shipped in the trunk from the assembly plant came with valve stem extensions in a paper envelope.  Recently was deducted for this at MCA show on the 64.5 Pace Car I restored, thought it was relatively common knowledge.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Valve stem exetnsions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: Murf on October 20, 2016, 09:22:32 PM
I was of the same opinion.  I have always found that  original 65-66 mustangs had 1 1/4 inch valve stems and that if wire wheel covers were factory specified with a particular car then an extension was used to facilitate putting air in the tire. Just one persons thoughts. 
Title: Re: Valve stem exetnsions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: Richard P. on October 20, 2016, 10:06:30 PM
I don't think the wheel covers on that car were of the wire type . If I recall correctly they were standard wheel covers. I believe that the original extensions from Ford had a Silver Aluminum Center. The ones that I saw on that car appeared to have a white center. BTW my phone # is on the judging sheet if you'd like to call. I didn't realize that this car belonged to you. I hope I'm speaking with the owner.
Title: Re: Valve stem exetnsions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: CharlesTurner on October 20, 2016, 11:07:12 PM
I don't think the wheel covers on that car were of the wire type . If I recall correctly they were standard wheel covers. I believe that the original extensions from Ford had a Silver Aluminum Center. The ones that I saw on that car appeared to have a white center. BTW my phone # is on the judging sheet if you'd like to call. I didn't realize that this car belonged to you. I hope I'm speaking with the owner.

I restored the car, you know that good and well.  I'm curious about what others have seen here, I thought maybe I was wrong.  Stephan owns the car, I don't see why it's necessary for him to call you from Germany.  I maintain this car for him here in the US.

Mike Murray's convertible does not have wires and has the extensions.  B. Perkins said he has a box of wheel covers that came in the trunk of one of his cars, had the extensions in an envelope.

The extensions on the car have metal centers, they were NOS in FoMoCo packaging.
Title: Re: Valve stem exetnsions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: outlawincorporated on October 21, 2016, 06:48:23 AM
Charles.

From memory B Perkins black 52 mile coupe has wire wheel covers and a FOMOCO box in the trunk with valve extensions, cant tell you what style or length they where as the package was still sealed.
He did explain to me the theory behind why they where necessary!!!!

image attached and you can see the small valve extension on the spare

regards.

PHILL BERESFORD.
MELBOURNE.
AUSTRALIA.
Title: Re: Valve stem exetnsions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: CharlesTurner on October 21, 2016, 10:34:26 AM
I originally thought that they were only for wire wheel covers, but then Mike's low mileage convertible has them and the standard stem with cap still makes it difficult to get an air chuck with a standard wheel cover.

Thanks for input.
Title: Re: Valve stem exetnsions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: jwc66k on October 21, 2016, 12:38:00 PM
Some 20 odd years ago I replaced the wire wheel covers with Style Steel Wheels on my 66 GT Fastback. A couple days ago I repaired a tube on a neighbor's kid's bicycle and found several extensions in the tube repair box (actually a .30cal ammo can). I wondered where they came from. This discussion answers that question. My collection has two different length plastic style, 1 1/8 inch and 1 3/8 inch. (I also found some metal types, 1 1/2 inch.) I would assume the 1 1/8 inch length is correct.
Jim
Title: Re: Valve stem exetnsions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: Brant on October 21, 2016, 05:33:33 PM
I originally thought that they were only for wire wheel covers, but then Mike's low mileage convertible has them and the standard stem with cap still makes it difficult to get an air chuck with a standard wheel cover.

Thanks for input.

Charles,

Thanks for bringing up this topic. It's something that I have always wondered about too. I tried to find some vintage images, but it's always tough to see the valve stems.

Anyway, do you have any pictures of the style of extensions that were most common? Also, what length do you think were used?
Title: Re: Valve stem exetnsions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: CharlesTurner on October 21, 2016, 07:49:41 PM
Here's a pic.  There are varying lengths.  As can be seen in this pic, with the standard size valve stem, if a regular cap was used, it would be hard to get an air chuck on.  With these extensions, the air chuck goes directly on, no need to unscrew.

Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: CharlesTurner on October 21, 2016, 08:24:40 PM
Some additional info.  In the '65 MPC, all the wheel cover kits come with extensions.

The 66 and 67 MPC doesn't list extensions with the wheel covers, but the extensions for Mustang are listed as one item, the 7/8" long C0DD-1705-A

Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: Brant on October 21, 2016, 08:59:51 PM
Thanks, Charles!  Yes, I put "standard" length valve stems on my convertible. There is no way that you can put air in without removing the hubcap. I always wondered if extensions were possibly used, rather than a "long" valve stem. Good stuff!
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: mgmradio on October 21, 2016, 10:55:52 PM
For years Ford only used the short valve stems on all wheels . Cars that got full wheel covers had extensions added at PDI and were included in the prep kit. This continued up into the late 1990-2000's.
  If you think about it it makes since. When the tires were mounted to the rims they didn't know what options the car that they'd end up on was going to have as far as wheel covers or hub caps.
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 22, 2016, 12:32:42 AM
FYI try to find the extensions with the silver metal ball valve l (mentioned earlier) like what came on the cars. The more common white plastic ball valve is the typical substitute . The silver ball valve can still be found.   
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: 67350#1242 on October 22, 2016, 12:05:26 PM
Do these look close?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-Of-5-3-4-Tire-Plastic-Valve-Stem-Extensions-/171457432059?hash=item27eba8c9fb:m:mmV30-axzDSOXFFj8j7J2xw&vxp=mt

They look like they have metal centers,  but don't know about the length and style.  Were originals made by Dill?
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 22, 2016, 04:02:46 PM
Do these look close?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-Of-5-3-4-Tire-Plastic-Valve-Stem-Extensions-/171457432059?hash=item27eba8c9fb:m:mmV30-axzDSOXFFj8j7J2xw&vxp=mt

They look like they have metal centers,  but don't know about the length and style.  Were originals made by Dill?
Metal ball valve like you want but too short a different shape.
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: carlite65 on October 22, 2016, 06:37:55 PM
i believe NPD has the correct ones minus the center color. maybe scott will chime in on this.
Title: Re: Valve stem exetnsions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: rodster on October 22, 2016, 10:06:38 PM
Charles,

Thanks for bringing up this topic. It's something that I have always wondered about too. I tried to find some vintage images, but it's always tough to see the valve stems.

Anyway, do you have any pictures of the style of extensions that were most common? Also, what length do you think were used?

Here's what's I found on the original wheels for my 67.
Title: Re: Valve stem exetnsions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: CharlesTurner on October 22, 2016, 10:25:29 PM
Here's what's I found on the original wheels for my 67.

That looks like the correct 7/8" one.
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: Scott302 on October 24, 2016, 12:00:34 PM
i believe NPD has the correct ones minus the center color. maybe scott will chime in on this.
Dill was and still is (last I checked) Ford's supplier of tire valves.  Dill has always had these extensions.  They have changed slightly over time.  The original had an aluminum center plunger whereas the current production has a white plastic plunger.  We note this in our description and tell people to paint the plunger silver to replicate the original look. 
The Ford books identify 2 lengths of these extensions.  B7AZ-1705-A was the 1 1/4 inch and C0DZ-1705-A was 7/8 inch (Dill offers a 3/4 inch now). 
Refer to the Bob Perkins article in Mustang Monthly September 2005 page 52 for a description on correct valves, caps and extensions.  It was this article that caused me to contact Dill about these and subsequently found a distributor to supply us.
To support Mike Murray's response; Ford used a standardized valve on the wheels when they mounted the tires.  If you think about it Ford probably would not know what hub caps would be used with the wheel/tire combo.  It makes sense that they included the appropriate extension with the wheel cover.   It seems to me that the wire wheel covers would need the longer extensions and the standard wheel cover would use the short extensions.
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: CharlesTurner on October 24, 2016, 12:06:35 PM
Thanks Scott.  This might be a good item to get in the MCA rulebook so the same mistake in deducting points is not made in the future.

Appreciate everyone's response!
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: Murf on October 25, 2016, 07:07:34 PM
So--- for 1965 the styled steel wheels would have no extension, only a two inch tubeless valve stem? , the standard hubcap with or without spinner would have a 2 inch valve stem and a 7/8" extension?, the wire type hubcap would have a two inch stem and a 1 1/4 inch extension? Then there was the "competition handling package" with 15 inch wheels and What kind of hubcaps and extensions?  Also I assume the very early cars with thirteen inch wheels had its own set of equipment? - If someone is going to propose this to the MCA we must arm them with the most correct information possible.  Your comments please.
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: carlite65 on October 25, 2016, 07:13:30 PM
it has been proposed and is being looked into before revisions are made. agree that we need a little further clarification. maybe bob p. can chime in on this & advise.
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: Richard P. on October 25, 2016, 10:01:56 PM
Dill was and still is (last I checked) Ford's supplier of tire valves.  Dill has always had these extensions.  They have changed slightly over time.  The original had an aluminum center plunger whereas the current production has a white plastic plunger.  We note this in our description and tell people to paint the plunger silver to replicate the original look. 
The Ford books identify 2 lengths of these extensions.  B7AZ-1705-A was the 1 1/4 inch and C0DZ-1705-A was 7/8 inch (Dill offers a 3/4 inch now). 
Refer to the Bob Perkins article in Mustang Monthly September 2005 page 52 for a description on correct valves, caps and extensions.  It was this article that caused me to contact Dill about these and subsequently found a distributor to supply us.
To support Mike Murray's response; Ford used a standardized valve on the wheels when they mounted the tires.  If you think about it Ford probably would not know what hub caps would be used with the wheel/tire combo.  It makes sense that they included the appropriate extension with the wheel cover.   It seems to me that the wire wheel covers would need the longer extensions and the standard wheel cover would use the short extensions.

I recently received the 2017 NPD Parts Catalog. I'm going to provide some information in reference to 1965/66 Mustangs only. On page 79 of the NPD Catalog it shows 1705 Extension, Tire Valve 3/4",1965/73 part # 1705-2 and 1965/73 part # T-1705-1, 1-1/4" I looked in my January 1965 and January 1966 parts and Accessories Catalogs and the finding are as follows, 1965 1705 Extension - Tire Valve F=Mustang CODD 1705-A 7/8" long and A,B,X (A=Galaxie Series include wagon, B= Fairlane Series and X=Falcon Series) 1-1/4" long. If this information is correct the ONLY tire extension used in the 1965/66 F=Mustang was 7/8" in length. The same information is repeated in the 1966 catalog. The NPD Catalog lists 1705-1A Valve Tire as 1-1/4"long and I believe this is correct length. Their is some discussion about putting this in our rules and I hope that we can get it right. If there is more information on this topic I'm sure we'd all welcome it. I provided a e-mail with the above information to Scott Halseth at NPD. I don't have the capability to post the above information here but, I'd be more than happy to e-mail this to anyone else.
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: CharlesTurner on October 26, 2016, 12:55:45 AM
Agree with the 7/8" vs. 3/4", but do you think a 1/8" difference would be noticeable installed on a car with an otherwise correct extension?

Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: Richard P. on October 26, 2016, 05:44:36 AM
Agree with the 7/8" vs. 3/4", but do you think a 1/8" difference would be noticeable installed on a car with an otherwise correct extension?


This isn't about what I think, this is about what Ford Motor Company printed. What someone thinks can lead to bad information. One of the things that is stressed in this hobby is documentation. I provided some no more no less.
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: CharlesTurner on October 26, 2016, 10:54:12 AM
This isn't about what I think, this is about what Ford Motor Company printed. What someone thinks can lead to bad information. One of the things that is stressed in this hobby is documentation. I provided some no more no less.

It has a lot to do with what we think because we as judges will determine what is acceptable and what is not for judging.

We have gone from having an (incorrect)deduction for an item that is 'documented' by Ford to splitting hairs between 1/8" difference.  I personally do not believe it would be obvious when judging and would accept the 3/4" ones that NPD sells as long as the plastic inserts are painted silver to appear as metal.  I totally get the wrong vs. right thing, but in this case, I really don't think anyone could visually tell the difference once they are installed.

I also would suggest that if the judging rules are updated that they allow with or without the extensions.  These came in a small envelope with the wheel cover box placed in the trunk of the car at the assembly plant.  I am sure there are examples out there with the extensions not installed as it was strictly a dealer-prep item (except for SS wheels).

BTW, the MPC information was already posted in this thread a few days ago:
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=14639.msg91330#msg91330
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: Bob Gaines on October 26, 2016, 12:26:00 PM
I think it is definitely a item that can be compromised on if restoring and a person can't find the genuine one because few could tell the difference. With that said if a judge can tell the difference it would be grounds for a deduction however minor or at least a mention. It may get missed and it may not. We can't forget if it would be fair to the guy who goes the extra trouble to get them dead on. Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: CharlesTurner on October 26, 2016, 02:12:35 PM
It's like what another fellow judge has said, if a detail doesn't draw attention to be scrutinized, then it will usually get a pass.   ;D  ;D

One other thing to throw into the mix is that Dill may not have been the only supplier.  I'm not sure how we could know for sure they were the only one?  As a judge, we give the benefit of a doubt to the car.  I think there's enough foggy area here to say 3/4 or 7/8 would get a pass so long as the rest of the appearance is correct.
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: jwc66k on October 26, 2016, 04:46:49 PM
A recap:
P/N - B7AZ-1705-A - 1 1/4 inch long - MPC 75 ed, sec 10 pg 60
P/N - C0DZ-1705-A - 7/8 inch long - MPC 75 ed, sec 10 pg 60
P/N - C6AA-1705-D2 - 1 1/4 inch long - Mustang Monthly, Sept 2005 pg 52, picture (smooth base vs grooved base)
The manufacturer was Dill, and their name appeared on the tip. Their base was grooved, at least on the samples I have.
I don't see how any determination of correct length can be made based on what is currently known, for both original factory equipment and current NOS availability. The MPC lists two different lengths. The MPC is also the source for service replacements, it's what Ford determined what would fit and could be used as a common replacement. The manufacturer of those MPC replacement was not indicated.
The criteria used in MCA judging is the extension should be present on Mustangs with wheel covers, and more likely than not, should have a visible silver pressure stop. Length is difficult to determine without disassembly.
Jim 
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: Richard P. on October 26, 2016, 08:36:43 PM
I think it is definitely a item that can be compromised on if restoring and a person can't find the genuine one because few could tell the difference. With that said if a judge can tell the difference it would be grounds for a deduction however minor or at least a mention. It may get missed and it may not. We can't forget if it would be fair to the guy who goes the extra trouble to get them dead on. Just my thoughts.
+1
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: Richard P. on October 26, 2016, 09:03:05 PM
Thanks Scott.  This might be a good item to get in the MCA rulebook so the same mistake in deducting points is not made in the future.

Appreciate everyone's response!
Charles I was aware of the information in my books my prior to your response and decided to respond after there was talk of putting this in our rules. I've been around a while with MCA and have seen information put in our rules that wasn't correct that had to be revised the next year. Example we once had a rule that 1965 Mustangs with AM Radio had the first number on the face starting with six (6) and 1966 Mustangs with AM radios had the first letter starting with five (5) and 1965 Mustangs had a battery apron shield. I'd hate to see that happen again. We are all human being and as such we make mistakes. You judged my car in Grovetown, GA. sometime back and there was 3 points deducted that I know were in fact correct. I'm going to address one. My car is shown in Concourse Driven B CLASS 813. Their was a 0ne point deduction for "rear brake bleeder to big" at the bottom of the undercarriage paragraph is the wording "Driven Exception: Wheel cylinders with larger bleeders screws acceptable" As I mentioned earlier we are all human and make mistakes. You were able to look at my bleeders and make a determination that they were of the large type as opposed to the small. If you can do that isn't it possible that a person can look at the 3/4" and make the same determination. I'm not a anal person but, if I wanted to check the car I'm judging I'd simply put a 3/4" extension in my pocket and compare with the car that I'm judging. You mention that we should give the car a 3/4" a pass but what about the guy who purchases the long 1-1/4" valve extension for the wire wheel covers that are also incorrect? I didn't come here and whine and complain as those three point didn't affect the out come of the award that I was trying to achieve. I was very happy that my car could take the deductions and still get a Gold award. Charles you have done a lot for our hobby and I commend you. NPD and all of the other parts suppliers spend a lot of time R&D) and money trying to get things correct and for that I'm grateful. NPD has some of the best parts around 
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: CharlesTurner on October 26, 2016, 09:32:17 PM
This topic was started with the only intention being to learn and educate.  I was very careful not to call out anyone specifically as I definitely did not want it to appear as 'complaining'.  I very much respect all the volunteer work judges in the many organizations put in.

As we learn new details, it is imperative that they be documented in the judging rules.  I would suggest that the information discussed in this topic is worthy of an addition to the MCA rule book, but it does have to be properly worded as previously mentioned.
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: ChrisV289 on February 05, 2017, 02:09:11 AM
So looks like the rules were updated to include the valve extensions, my questions is should there be 4 or 5, does the spare tire get an extension?
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: CharlesTurner on February 05, 2017, 02:19:19 AM
The spare gets a regular valve stem cap.
Title: Re: Valve stem extensions for 1st Gen cars with wheel covers ?
Post by: NEFaurora on March 19, 2017, 10:10:25 PM

I had always wondered about this.. Interesting subject.  Both my '65 and '66 Convertibles originally came with Wire Wheel hubcaps.  I just always used 2" Valve Stems and Dill caps on both my cars with no issues.  I'll have to pick up a few sets of the extensions..  I had one metal ball extensions set, but I never thought that they were original... Now I know when I come across them next time in my garage wherever I stashed them..

:o)

Tony K.