ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1969 Mustang => Topic started by: groovygreen69 on June 12, 2014, 03:23:35 PM
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Had the honor of being parked next to and took tons of pictures of this original a paint original family owned 1969 4.1 Liter Special at the Ford Nationals at Carlisle. This is the first special color car that I have seen that came with white sport mirrors. Usually I see black ones or just chrome remote ones. Everything was original except for the tires/wheels, exhaust, battery and starter solenoid. The owner drove it 500+ miles to get there and just ran it through a car wash before pulling in. I love it! Cars in this promotion came in either Red, Yellow or Green. This is the first one that has ever turned up. Should be in mustang monthly later this year. -Chris
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just looking at the variety of colors of car in that display, then I thought of today's new car lots with their predominately limited colors, usually, white, black, silver, and red. Today's pony cars are the breed that still has the greater variety, or am I seeing the wrong car lots. And today's interiors are limited as well.
Anyway, fantastic picture, the white racing mirrors do look a bit odd to me.
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Would be great to see the shipping invoice or the Buildsheet to see if those mirrors were a dealer change or original to the car. Would expect to see that they were changed to suit the dealer or the buyer
Thanks for sharing
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Would be great to see the shipping invoice or the Buildsheet to see if those mirrors were a dealer change or original to the car. Would expect to see that they were changed to suit the dealer or the buyer
Thanks for sharing
It was a special order color car, so the mirror wouldn't be the same color as the car, which I'm sure you know having had so many special order color cars yourself. The car was literally bought off the truck. The family had just bought a stationwagon when the car carrier pulled in. The father, car nut at the time, literally bought it while they were unloading it. According to the owner's son who was there, the mirrors were always white. Also the father did not want the red 4.1 Liter Special fender decals installed, so no one knows what they really looked like. The guy wouldn't let me dig around his car for build sheets, so what you see attached to this post is all that I have for documents. The bucktag was too lightly stamped and so covered with paint and grime, that I couldn't read it. Notice the tape on the tag ? Not sure what that was for. - Chris
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NICE! Really nice!
What I wouldn't give...to have ANY previous owner information OF ANY KIND! I want just a few answers to questions I have had since Day-1, when bought in March, 1978. Would also LOVE knowing everything from the original dealership's usage prior to selling it. (mine was likely a DEMO, given it's build/delivery date and original sales records on Marti Report)
Richard
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...................... The bucktag was too lightly stamped and so covered with paint and grime, that I couldn't read it. Notice the tape on the tag ? Not sure what that was for. -
Have seen that before but don't know why yet either. Too thin and different type to have been the normal stuff used to hang a build sheet from - not the same location normally either for that plant and year
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wow the special paint was 363 dollars more!! Too bad it didnt cost that much today!
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Not to be negative, but I had to do the math to get from a 4.1L engine to 250CID engine (4.1 X 61 = 250.1). It is not a good policy to mix metric and English measurement systems, I point out a NASA probe that missed Mars because of that "quirk". I note that Ford called it 250CID on the window sticker.
On the other hand, the paperwork is almost priceless. I have the same on a 65 GT Fastback, window sticker, dealer invoice and owners manual. The previous owner included a stack of service receipts and the original floor mats when I bought the car.
Jim
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Very cool!
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wow the special paint was 363 dollars more!! Too bad it didnt cost that much today!
?? the price for special paint was $13.90 . $363 was the total for all the options on this fairly basic car
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I just saw this, I have been MIA for awhile.
The reason for the mirror color is probably as follows - The sport mirrors in 69 were painted in a different location than the body. Ford was not going to go to the trouble of painting sport mirrors special order paint colors. So, for special order paint cars, the choices were the standard chrome mirror, or generic black or white sport mirrors. Makes sense.
Fran
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I just saw this, I have been MIA for awhile.
The reason for the mirror color is probably as follows - The sport mirrors in 69 were painted in a different location than the body. Ford was not going to go to the trouble of painting sport mirrors special order paint colors. So, for special order paint cars, the choices were the standard chrome mirror, or generic black or white sport mirrors. Makes sense.
Believe the standard issue for Mach I 's (didn't apply to other cars) in 69 - up was the remote chrome mirror. Only a couple of special order paint Machs have been found with the off color mirrors and its been guessed that those were dealer installed when the owner complained. What is interesting IMHO is that Ford was handling the sports appearance group differently than the Mach I package when it came to special order paint
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Jeff, I have been thinking this through and let me ask you a question - Did the Sport Mirrors at the local dealership parts dept. come from Ford with a primer finish? If they were in primer, the dealer would have to paint the mirror some color, why would they paint it black or white? They would have the correct paint code, why not just paint it body color?
Thanks for your time,
Fran
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Jeff, I have been thinking this through and let me ask you a question - Did the Sport Mirrors at the local dealership parts dept. come from Ford with a primer finish? If they were in primer, the dealer would have to paint the mirror some color, why would they paint it black or white? They would have the correct paint code, why not just paint it body color?
Thanks for your time,
Fran
I don't know how this statement (below) represents the true history of the mirror color or how it does not, I am no expert on this subject. It is obvious however, in the belief of the O.P. of the thread, he has already answered an explainantion to this question. Only somebody else "Buying it off the truck" or possibly a dealership employee of the era would likely be able to answer this better.
It was a special order color car, so the mirror wouldn't be the same color as the car, which I'm sure you know having had so many special order color cars yourself. The car was literally bought off the truck. The family had just bought a stationwagon when the car carrier pulled in. The father, car nut at the time, literally bought it while they were unloading it. According to the owner's son who was there, the mirrors were always white. Also the father did not want the red 4.1 Liter Special fender decals installed, so no one knows what they really looked like. The guy wouldn't let me dig around his car for build sheets, so what you see attached to this post is all that I have for documents. The bucktag was too lightly stamped and so covered with paint and grime, that I couldn't read it. Notice the tape on the tag ? Not sure what that was for. - Chris
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Believe the standard issue for Mach I 's (didn't apply to other cars) in 69 - up was the remote chrome mirror. Only a couple of special order paint Machs have been found with the off color mirrors and its been guessed that those were dealer installed when the owner complained. What is interesting IMHO is that Ford was handling the sports appearance group differently than the Mach I package when it came to special order paint
Jeff, I have been thinking this through and let me ask you a question - Did the Sport Mirrors at the local dealership parts dept. come from Ford with a primer finish? If they were in primer, the dealer would have to paint the mirror some color, why would they paint it black or white? They would have the correct paint code, why not just paint it body color?
Thanks for your time,
Fran
Even though the post I am referencing is directly above it, I guess I should have included the quote. Sorry for the confusion.
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Jeff, I have been thinking this through and let me ask you a question - Did the Sport Mirrors at the local dealership parts dept. come from Ford with a primer finish?
Replacement rear view mirrors, if in stock and available when the car was delievered, would have been primer
If they were in primer, the dealer would have to paint the mirror some color, why would they paint it black or white? They would have the correct paint code, why not just paint it body color?
Hard to explain what a new owner would want and either pay extra for or talk the dealer in providing. Would have required pulling the door panel, drilling more holes for the cable and the mount (door panel and the door itself) replacing what was on the car already. Its possible (if we're going to accept that a buyer went through all of this) that they may have liked a finish that matched the black out on the hood (more racy look) as much or more than ones that match the body color.
IMHO its like trying to explain why a buyer got or wanted red floor mats on a blue interior car after all these years :) We're just left to guess, question and wonder at this point when it comes to things that are not "normal" or as Ford designed things
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We're just left to guess, question and wonder at this point when it comes to things that are not "normal" or as Ford designed things
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What fun would it be if there were no mysteries to be solved.....One of the many reasons why Mustangs are so special.
Thanks
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........the dealer would have to paint the mirror some color, why would they paint it black or white? They would have the correct paint code, why not just paint it body color?
Guess the direct answer is - if they were originally painted black or white that is either what the original owner wanted, was willing to pay for or what the dealer talked them into to make them happy. If not original its what the newer owner wanted to do.
Of course documenting that this is how it was delivered rests with the owner and may be difficult after all these years
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Hi,My name is Don.I own the 1969 4.1 litre Mustang.The white racing mirrors came on the car.Nothing has been changed from factory other than the tires and wheels.I installed power steering which didn't come on the car.I had dual exhaust put on the car.but didn't do anything to change the intake system.The Marti report say that the car came with basic off-standard equipment which might explain the white mirrors.I've never searched the car for the build sheet.I do have all the original paperwork from day one including the owners warranty card that has my Dad's name on it.The car has all ways been garaged and for it's age it's in very good condition.I still have the original hubcaps that came on the car because it had standard 14 inch steel wheels from the factory.
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First welcome to the site
............The Marti report say that the car came with basic off-standard equipment which might explain the white mirrors......
Not familiar with the term "basic off-standard equipment" as seen on Marti reports for regular production or special order paint cars
Did your father happen to save the original bill of sale for the car? That might explain the difference.
Does the car still have the buck tag on it?
Just attempting to figure out (if we can after all these years) if the car rolled off the transport or rail car that was or if the dealer made the change
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Welcome from one "olegoat" to another. Knowledgeable bunch here.............except me.
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basic off standard is a predetermined build for a particular car arrangement. I see this a lot with GT/CS cars for example that have 289/auto/std interior and 2.79 gear. This seems to be the run of the mill sort of configuration. Likely these econo 250 cars had a standard package as well to include the driveline options. Obviously options could be added but I think if a stocking dealer ordered a promo type car for inventory this was the call out and they perhaps had a color choice. I know Cat does this so they can group production and keep costs down on certain runs of same same
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I know for a fact that the car the way you see it today is exactly the way it came from the factory.My Dad owned a lot of old cars and wasn't to hot about changing a cars originality.
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Hey Don, thanks for letting me take all the pictures of your car. Hope you don't mind that I posted some on this forum. I still look at them from time to time. They will make a great reference for the next 69 Mustang restoration I will do. All I need now is another 69 Mustang.......
Chris
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Hey Chris,I appreciate you putting the pics on there.There has been a lot of discussion about the mirrors,but I can tell you for a fact there wasn't a change made at the dealer or any place else.Dad would be so proud to see his car getting recognition.I want to thank you guys for making feel welcome at Carlisle.Don
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Hey Chris,I appreciate you putting the pics on there.There has been a lot of discussion about the mirrors,but I can tell you for a fact there wasn't a change made at the dealer or any place else......
So your family was there when the car was unloaded off the transport? That must have been an exciting event - was able to do that a couple of times with cars I ordered and had built by the factory
Just thinking out loud - did you happen to keep the Special order paperwork that was suppose to be in the glove box in an envelope? Was wondering if it include a note or comment about the mirrors
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My Dad all ways kept any paperwork that came with a car.Since I don't have it,I would guess that it never came with the car.Dad didn't know it was a special car.He bought it because of the color.He asked if he could get it with a 289 and they told him,watch you see is what you get.Glad he bought it any way.I have the original window sticker,the original bill of sale,original title and the owners warranty card.
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My Dad all ways kept any paperwork that came with a car.Since I don't have it,I would guess that it never came with the car.Dad didn't know it was a special car.He bought it because of the color.He asked if he could get it with a 289 and they told him,watch you see is what you get.Glad he bought it any way.I have the original window sticker,the original bill of sale,original title and the owners warranty card.
So your dad didn't order this - just picked off the lot. Thanks
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So your dad didn't order this - just picked off the lot. Thanks
It was a special order color car, so the mirror wouldn't be the same color as the car, which I'm sure you know having had so many special order color cars yourself. The car was literally bought off the truck. The family had just bought a stationwagon when the car carrier pulled in. The father, car nut at the time, literally bought it while they were unloading it. According to the owner's son who was there, the mirrors were always white. Also the father did not want the red 4.1 Liter Special fender decals installed, so no one knows what they really looked like. The guy wouldn't let me dig around his car for build sheets, so what you see attached to this post is all that I have for documents. The bucktag was too lightly stamped and so covered with paint and grime, that I couldn't read it. Notice the tape on the tag ? Not sure what that was for. - Chris
I remembered reading in this thread that the car was bought off the truck, so I imagined that the car was taken home pretty much the same day, or I guess you might also say, once the check cleared.
Then I looked again at the Marti Report dates and the factory invoice selling date and I noticed something that begs a couple of questions. I am not trying to discredit anything, but I would like to learn more on such things. Quite possibly, there are good explanations for the date differences, I don't know, but I thought I would ask.
Dates on Marti Report:
Scheduled Build Date: 05/01/69
Actual Build Date: 05/14/69
Released Date: 05/14/69
Sold Date: 07/10/69
Dealers Invoice Date: 08/09/69
1.) Were there typically such delays (on Special Paint cars or ANY cars of this time period) between actual build dates and dealer delivery dates? (truck driver's strike, train derailment??? idk)
2.) Could it be that the the actual delivery/purchase agreement (invoice) be written and dated at a different time than the Marti Report indicates some how?
Richard
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Don't know what happened on that one.I have the original title the the sale date is 07/10/1969
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Don't know what happened on that one.I have the original title the the sale date is 07/10/1969
That matches the Ford records. So if Ford has their dates correct then the car sat around maybe a month and a half or so (after shipping the car to the dealer) before your dad purchased it
Think the time period provides at least the possibility that things could have been changed on the car at the dealer IMHO. Though not common - plenty of examples were wheels, hubcaps, mirrors and bolt on items were changed on cars for one reason or another. Have know some original owners that never realized that their cars had been touched up either before the original sale or while the cars were at the dealer for servicing if their memories held true.
Allot of time has past
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Must be a mistake on the invoice or was written at a later date than the actual sale (because of the trade in?). The owner's card has the purchase date of 7/10/69, the title application dated 7/12/69 shows 7/9/69 and the original title dated 10/6/69 shows 7/9/69.
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Must be a mistake on the invoice or was written at a later date than the actual sale (because of the trade in?). The owner's card has the purchase date of 7/10/69, the title application dated 7/12/69 shows 7/9/69 and the original title dated 10/6/69 shows 7/9/69.
The "gap" Time period I was referring to was between the day the car was finished and the day it was recorded as sold. All the sale related dates look typical IMHO
If someone has a copy of the Marti maybe the order type would shed some additional information
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The order type according to the Marti report says Basic Off-Standard Equipment.Don't know where the car was after it was built but it didn't make it to the dealer until July.This car wasn't special ordered by my Dad. The dealer told him they built 500 of these cars .Dad bought it because he liked the color,didn't have any ideal that it was a special car.
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The order type according to the Marti report says Basic Off-Standard Equipment.Don't know where the car was after it was built but it didn't make it to the dealer until July............
Lots of questions - so thanks for being a good sport. How do you know it didn't make it to the dealership until July?
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Mom and Dad had bought a new 1969 Ford station wagon and it was supposed to have a rear step on it it.It came without the step and the dealer ordered the step for the car.When it came in they called Dad and he took the car over to have it installed.While he was there the transport truck pulled in and he said the first thing he noticed was the green mustang on top.Fell in love with the car and bought it.This was in July of 69
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Mom and Dad had bought a new 1969 Ford station wagon and it was supposed to have a rear step on it it................
Thanks now I can understand your earlier statement and documents a specific event to its arrival .
Wonder, in the advertising, if there was a group shot of all or a bunch of the cars. Don't recall ever seeing a picture like that but a shot in the dark for the the amount of time between the build and and the arrival. Wonder how close the closest rail yard was from the dealership or if they were all trucked given the distance between Dearborn and the dealership
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Not the same year, but look at the 68 strike picture from Life attached. I know its hard to focus on anything other than the Mustang fastback ;), but look at the other cars surrounding it.
There are still short term storage lots around metro Detroit today, including some managed by third parties. Even in the days of "just in time".
A non-ordered car sitting a month or two is not a strange concept.
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A non-ordered car sitting a month or two is not a strange concept.
Certainly not a "normal" year (68) or situation.
Don't believe I've ever heard one of the managers of a plant during the period that described cars sitting at the plant for extended periods. Not that much room (considering the volume done daily on multiple of lines at each plant and the quicker they get to the dealer even non-ordered cars started producing some income. Hard to sell them at the plant ;)
Lot more reports of cars being moved with in a day or two from my exchanges There were holding locations in most districts but not sure how they came into play currently
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Even in the days of "just in time".
"Just In Time" for ordering and inventory control for manufacturing was not an accepted concept by Ford in the 1960's, lack of computers. Ford used many planners basing their order on marketing forecasts, and a lot of WAG's (Wild Assed Guesses).
A non-ordered car sitting a month or two is not a strange concept.
My 65 GT Fastback was built in San Jose on 5-11-65, delivered to Bob Coates Ford in Walnut Grove (date unknown) and finally sold by Towne Ford in Redwood City on 8-7-65, a three month "lag". Reason - unknown.
Certainly not a "normal" year (68) or situation.
Lot more reports of cars being moved with in a day or two from my exchanges There were holding locations in most districts but not sure how they came into play currently
I would think 1965 would be a "normal" year. I have the original window sticker, and the sales invoice (The invoice has the original buyer's name and address so I will not show it until those have been altered). It does not have a special DSO.
Jim
CPIM APICS
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Thanks now I can understand your earlier statement and documents a specific event to its arrival .
Wonder, in the advertising, if there was a group shot of all or a bunch of the cars. Don't recall ever seeing a picture like that but a shot in the dark for the the amount of time between the build and and the arrival. Wonder how close the closest rail yard was from the dealership or if they were all trucked given the distance between Dearborn and the dealership
Keeping in mind, these were a special build car, they would not necessarily follow the "norm", this statement seems to make the most sense so far, that is using the "Buying it right off the truck" and the statement of seeing the truck pull in. Other ideas might come out but as far as I care, his Dad IS the original owner and only he could possibly answer any questions differently than his son already has.
As far as why any car sits at ANY dealership for a period of time, that seems to be more unrelated to this discussion. The area of discussion seems to be on BEFORE it arrived at the dealership, and what took so long for it to get there. Everything else has awesome documentation that most of us could only dream of having! (like me!)
One thing is sure, This is a very Groovy Green Mustang and very much a nice example of a car well maintained over the years. As far as the "Gap" that is in question here, I guess it really doesn't matter if the car is "As Delivered" so how the mirrors came as white, if that is how it were delivered, that shouldn't matter either.
The owner accepts it, I accept it and I imagine most of us all accept it is "As Delivered". If it is the only one like that, so what? One of a kind is great! Well, that is my opinion anyways :D
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olegoat what does it say on your window sticker above special paint? Danville is only 5 hours sw of Detroit
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Keeping in mind, these were a special build car, they would not necessarily follow the "norm", this statement seems to make the most sense so far, that is using the "Buying it right off the truck" and the statement of seeing the truck pull in. Other ideas might come out but as far as I care, his Dad IS the original owner and only he could possibly answer any questions differently than his son already has.
As far as why any car sits at ANY dealership for a period of time, that seems to be more unrelated to this discussion. The area of discussion seems to be on BEFORE it arrived at the dealership, and what took so long for it to get there. Everything else has awesome documentation that most of us could only dream of having! (like me!)
Agreed
Since there is allot of the factory paperwork and original observations this seemed to be a good example to discuss the facts as presented and maybe learn something from the exchange. Since we're all at a great distance and only using the printed word to communicate the exchange often takes allot of back and forth to follow each lead and nuance in the story.
As mentioned olegoat has been a good sport helping us fully understand the details and the comments. Hope I get to see the care in person at some point in the future.
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Maybe I missed something here. This was a special order car, so someone ordered it and expected delivery. I suppose a dealer could have special ordered it, but then that begs the question of the amount of time from the release date to the sold date.
So I'm going to offer a hypothetical situation that is still somewhat typical today. Suppose someone (or a dealer) special ordered the car and it was delivered to that dealer, but went unsold. The dealer then traded that car for another car at the dealer where the original poster's father bought the car. The truck would have delivered the vehicle from one dealership to another, and the new owner would not know the difference.
How to check this scenario? What does the Marti Report show for which dealer the factory delivered the car to? Was it the one who sold it or another dealer?
Is this too far out in left field to consider or have I overlooked something in the discussions?
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Maybe I missed something here. This was a special order car, so someone ordered it and expected delivery. I suppose a dealer could have special ordered it, but then that begs the question of the amount of time from the release date to the sold date........
This car was part of a special promotion not a car specifically ordered for a particular buyer like some special order cars. Kind of along the lines of a 66 High Country Special since there were a promotion that included special order paint as part of the package. From the report the car (part of the promotion) was sent to the dealer then once seen by "oldgoat's" father was purchased
But I think what I'm getting from your post is - yes it would have been possible, one would think, that it could have originally been sent to another dealer then to the dealer that sold it if the first dealer didn't want it, didn't think it would sell or some other reason. Not sure if the Ford records reflect where the car was originally shipped or originally sold when the two differed.
Good question Kevin might know should be visiting him in the next few weeks
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yes I thought maybe dealer trade but the build sheet order code tells you how it was ordered & built. But his window sticker has Danville IN dealer on bottom so if a dealer trade would they issue another window sticker with new dealer name & get glued back on window?
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yes I thought maybe dealer trade but the build sheet order code tells you how it was ordered & built. But his window sticker has Danville IN dealer on bottom so if a dealer trade would they issue another window sticker with new dealer name & get glued back on window?
Not sure if the window stickers got placed in 69 before they were at the dealership and how many black ones each dealer had. Looking at a number of dealership pictures don't see window stickers on all cars on the lot or on rail cars. Guess that's a good discussion on a new thread about when, where and what versions were used in what year and region.
On second thought there was that Federal change that clarified and set out regulations about the window sticker. Don't recall when that came into law.... need to find that thread/post
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If you look at the Marti report,it says that the car was sent to Roberts Ford in Danville,in.Don't know what exactly happened with this car,but I'm glad that I own it
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If you look at the Marti report,it says that the car was sent to Roberts Ford in Danville,in.......
Just a thought. Did you happen to get a copy of the "Eminger" or the shipping invoice from Kevin Marti? Wonder what dealer is listed on it. Just a another piece of the puzzle and might well be the same Danville dealer - but would be nice to confirm
...............but I'm glad that I own it
As you should be. Very fun and unusual
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I just saw this, I have been MIA for awhile.
The reason for the mirror color is probably as follows - The sport mirrors in 69 were painted in a different location than the body. Ford was not going to go to the trouble of painting sport mirrors special order paint colors. So, for special order paint cars, the choices were the standard chrome mirror, or generic black or white sport mirrors. Makes sense.
Fran
My car has color keyed dual racing mirrors from the factory. Pastel gray. Pretty close to white though. Lol