Author Topic: St. Augustine MCA judging  (Read 14209 times)

Offline carguy

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2016, 01:03:14 PM »
Bob

Good luck with your appeal. They are the same trio that misjudged my car. Obviously lack of knowledge how to properly weigh deductions comes from the top in mca. 

Dave Brewer

Offline PerkinsRestoration

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2016, 02:09:31 PM »

  Dave, I have read your post and believe you don't fully understand the THB class. The THB class is the top restored class in MCA. That means no surface rust on anything including the exhaust system. It also means No orange peel B/C paint is a major deduction. From your original post you indicated the cars should have patina on the 50 year old exhaust. In the Unrestored class yes, but not in THB a restored class. It seems some in the hobby have coined the phrase "as delivered to dealer or first owner" as some sort of standard as you stated for restoration. Again in the unrestored class this would be fairly accurate. I like Charles Turner's interpretation of as delivered to mean as car was ordered and nothing more. A car shipped from DAP to Chicago in Salty winter months will have much more patina than one in July. A car that sat on the lot for 8 months will likely have more patina than the one that was sold in 5 days. This is all irrelevant in a restored class. The car is expected to be new and clean not weathered. Unfortunately some like to reference as delivered as an excuse for poor quality and workmanship. The MCA THB class is very anal Dave as you referred to it. Fifty percent of total points in all MCA concours classes are awarded to quality and condition. In the THB class the parts need to be date code correct but also meet quality standards. You are correct the double hump resonator is correct for 67 GT 500. The poor condition and mods to the inlet pipe is not acceptable in THB. I was not in St. Augustine but have talked to you many times about many of the outstanding cars you have showed in MCA and other venues including the 67 Shelby. I have talked to you before during and after judging in the past so I think your no communication comment with MCA is bit harsh. Dave I think you will admit you can be a bit confrontational before, during and after judging even when your car gets Gold (Chicago). I admire your spunk and passion for the hobby but most judges will not discuss results on show field to avoid confrontation. That is pretty much an unwritten rule for most National Clubs. It's My opinion the judges in St. Augustine judged the car to THB standards. I'm going to touch on one issue the hood. There are only 2 possible points for workmanship for underside of hood. You lost one point for a noticeable repair. Yes that is 50% of total points but not out of line due to not much emphasis on sheet for underside of hood. Dave I hope to see you at MCA Grand National Or SAAC 41. Call me if you like 920-696-3788 Bob

Offline carguy

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2016, 11:35:39 PM »
Bob:

Thank you for your thoughts.  I appreciate your taking the time to respond.  You have always been very helpful and approachable. I have learned a great deal from you. Not only do I respect you, but I value your friendship. 

You indicated that I probably do not understand Thoroughbred standards.  I totally understand Thoroughbred standards as defined in the MCA rules.  More importantly I thoroughly understand how a fair judging process should work.  This especially applies to knowledge of proper weighting of deductions.  This comes from personal experience which includes earning, not winning over the years:

(3) MCA Concours Gold Trailered Awards
(1) MCA Concours Gold Driven Award
(1) SAAC Division I Concours Gold Award
8    NCRS Duntov Awards (Highest possible award available in Corvette world)
8    NCRS Performance Verification Awards
(61) NCRS Top Flight Awards
(24) Bloomington Gold Certifications
(20) Corvette Expo and MCACN Triple Crown Awards
(16) MCACN Gold Concours awards scoring at least 990 plus out of 1,000
Vintage Chevrolet Club of America Best V-8 Car shown in  2010
Amelia Island Concours Class Winner
(3) Winter Park Concours Class Winner Awards
(3) large boxes of AACA Junior, Senior, and Grand National trophies
(11) Classic Chevy Winter Nationals Platinum Awards
Best Restored GTO at GTO Nationals
(2) Gold Concours Awards – GTO Nationals

Yes there should be orange peel in the paint.  I have no idea if my car has enough, but I accepted the required deduction.   Given my cars past ownership and preparation I would be surprised if it did not exhibit adequate orange peel   The paint deduction was the only deduction properly weighted so I did not raise paint as an issue with the judging.  Yes, there is a small repair on the underside of the hood which represents less than 5% of the hood.  Why would I lose 50% of available points for this?  Yes, the 50 year old exhaust has some minor patina.  Losing 25% of the total exhaust system for workmanship seemed really excessive to me. You did not address any of the other questionable calls.

You mentioned the standard. Mine is as delivered. Yours is as ordered. Either way the cars were poorly built and q tips were only used for ears in 1967. The standard should not be any better than what the cars were.

At the risk of being confrontational (which very few people who know me would describe me as such) you say in your opinion the car was judged correctly to Thoroughbred standards at St. Augustine.  Interesting comment that is very hard to back up since not only were you not at St Augustine but you have spent very little time looking at my car. Further since you last viewed the car all items discussed at MCACN were resolved. Further Ed Myer completed a comprehensive inspection and Orlando Mustang attacked every item he raised.  They show detailed every surface of the car just prior to the show. It was immediately loaded in my trailer and delivered to St. Augustine.  It was locked, loaded, and ready for judging.

I had a great experience at SAAC.  Judging was very tough, but it was fair and deductions were fairly weighted.  The judges were friendly and took time after judging to explain any problem areas they found.  What more could a participant ask.  I definitely plan on going back to SAAC assuming the judging continues to be conducted in a similar manner.  It is scary though with all of the changes going on at SAAC.  I sure hope MCA attitudes and methods do not creep into SAAC.  MCA  could learn a great deal from SAAC on how judging should be done especially weighting of deductions.  One thing for sure though is I will not going back to MCA events.  Who needs that aggravation?


Offline PerkinsRestoration

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2016, 12:36:19 AM »
Dave, Thanks for your response. I realize you have attended many National Shows and have outstanding rare automobiles. I did not see a MCA THB award prior to St. Augustine? I still believe the major conflict here is the emphasis on quality and condition in THB class. You indicated your opinion of as delivered differs from mine. Our opinions really don't matter. The MCA standard is what matters when it comes to MCA THB judging. MCA sets the standard, the judges judge accordingly. Owners and restorers should not blame judges for following club standards. On your hood repair you lost one point for a  flaw that is a difficult fix properly. How is one point excessive?  I would like to talk to you on the phone to discuss some points that don't need to be aired on a public forum. Give me a call 920-696-3788

Offline mikeljgt500kr

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2016, 10:42:14 AM »
Unfortunately there are always cases of inconsistent and incompetent judging in most venues.  My experience at SAAC 40 was almost identical to Dave's here, whereas Mid-America a few months earlier with the same newly restored car was a fantastic experience. But, there appears to be more going on here than that, this, like my SAAC 40 experience, is not just inconsistent and incompetent judging.  That is what is concerning.
I don't always downshift, but when I do it is near a Prius so they can hear me hurting the environment.

Offline caspian65

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2016, 03:43:30 PM »
The way the points are distributed, it doesn't always mean that we have to weight the infraction based on the total per category.  This may be where there is some misunderstanding.  In a 5 point cleanliness section, let's say, for front suspension... if we see a huge blob of grease coming out of a ball joint seal, that's a substantial cleanliness/workmanship issue and would most likely be a full point.  A lot of times, there are multiple minor infractions that can equate to a full point depending on the category.  I think a lot of judges do try to be fair, although some are not trained well and might not be familiar with weighing infractions.  Ideally, what we should be seeing is judges going through a training process that uses the same methods for consistency.  This is something we were doing a few years back when I was still MCA head judge, but had not been kept up since I stepped down.
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
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Offline carguy

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2016, 05:23:44 PM »

Bob:

Thanks for your thoughts.  I look forward to giving you a call early next week.

Two Points:

A.    You indicated that I had inferred that “you had not seen a Thoroughbred award prior to St. Augustine”.  That would be ridiculous and I apologize for any misunderstanding of what I had said.  I was commenting on your stating  “It's My opinion the judges in St. Augustine judged the car to THB standards.”  To make it clear what I said and meant was unless one has ESP it is impossible to say that a car was judged properly on a given day when one is 1200 miles away.  This is especially true when photos are not available and that particular car has been substantially improved since the last time viewed by the person making the judgement is 1200 miles away.

B Weighting of deductions:  In every other professional automotive judging that I have participated in if the underside of the hood has a small repair that covers less than 5% of the hood area then the deduction is 5% of the points for that category.  If total points for that category was 2 points then the deduction would be .1 not 1.  If they wanted to be punitive they would increase the deduction to .2.  If the problem area covered less than 10% the deduction would be .2 and so on.

For a microscopic piece of dust or dirt on the horns that might be worth 5 or 10% of the workmanship points which would yield a point loss of .05 or .1 of the available 1 point for workmanship.  How could anyone defend losing the complete workmanship points for this error?

If the judge does not want to deal with decimals then he inserts an asterisk in the category and keeps track of all decimal deductions on a separate piece of paper.   Under a later category or as a separate line item all of the noted decimal deductions would be added and placed on the score sheet.

Weighing of deductions in this manner is fair, defendable, understandable, and generally accepted in the automotive concours world.  It leaves owners with the feeling they have been treated fairly which means they will most likely be back as opposed to the current system that promotes the opposite.

Offline caspian65

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2016, 09:45:21 PM »
The weighing of points is a little different with MCA because we don't do fractional points. 

It really comes down to consistency in judging, not all of the judges look at what the percentage of an infraction is for an area.  Some will see something that stands out to them and they believe it should be a full point.  Others may not see it the same way and just write a comment with no deduction.

I know some judges that might be a little tougher on the point deductions because they want to make sure that certain areas need to be addressed.  If a comment is written and no point deduction, an owner may see that as an item they don't have to worry about.

Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
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Offline PerkinsRestoration

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2016, 01:22:41 AM »
 Dave,

Look forward to talking to you next week. Please check number 2 on THB judging cover sheet. Noticeable panel replacement or repair will be points deducted. I still believe your perception of the THB rules is much different than reality. Your definition of "As Delivered" is not in line with the THB class definition of Quality and Condition. For this reason I believe the MCA judges were fair and accurate in their assessment of your car according to the MCA THB rules.  I believe MCA THB standards are the toughest in the hobby for authenticity and workmanship. I will be happy to discuss your concerns via phone.

Offline ruppstang

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2016, 10:06:00 AM »
Gentlemen,
I do not feel that a public forum is the place to debate the points taken on an individual’s judge sheet and I will not enter in to it here. However I am saddened by the accusations being made here against the judging team and the MCA. Consequently I feel compelled to point out some things.
1.   I am certain everyone on the judging team in question would be more than willing to privately answer your concerns or questions.

2.   It seems as though some do not understand what it means to join a club. The way it works in most of the classes in the MCA is most of the members who show their cars do the judging in other classes away from their car. Others classify cars, work in the tally room and aid with the many other tasks that it takes to hold a successful show.  This is generally not the case in the Shelby and some other classes. These individuals only reason for joining the club is to have their car judged building a pedigree to insure that a prophet is made on their investment when sold.

 
3.   Judges are hobbyist too many of us travel to the shows at our own expense and do not even show a car.  We enjoy passing on the things we have learned to owners and other judges. When we have to deal with constant critizesem and complaining it truly takes the fun out of it. You know when a hobby is no longer fun you stop doing it. There are only 12 or so experienced Shelby judges in the country  of which most are restorers for different reasons (which I will not get in to here ) no longer help the MCA judge.  Without them and the support of the owners it leaves the MCA very short in some classes. Some day you may bring you car to a show and be told that you are in display because there is no one to judge it. That would be very sad.

4.   Statements made in the thread above seem to indicate you as owners are far more experienced in scoring than the judge team who were the club president, head judge, assistant head judge and a gold card judge.  My question is if you have so much knowledge and experience why are you not helping judge? 

5.   For the price of an entry fee (that we get none of) you ask for your car to be judged. That is asking the opinion of the judges which we freely give. You then have two choices you can respectfully disagree and look for other opinions or fix the deductions.  Then continue showing the car till you have reached the level that you desire. You seem to only want our  opinion if it favors you.

6.   For those of you that were not at the MCA national show at St Augustine it rained off and on Friday.  We normally try to judge the more time consuming cars like Thoroughbreds on Friday which did not happen. Saturday came with more threat of rain. We mustered our judging team and went out shortly after 8AM to judge Dave’s Thoroughbred. Upon arriving at his car we asked if he was ready to be judged, he answered that he needed a few minutes to be ready. After a short while Dave said that he was ready and we got started. There was a show speaker and a vender generator running very nearby which made communication difficult at best. We were all due to be in the judges meeting a 10AM but chose to stay and finish Dave’s car which we finished around 12:30PM. The St Augustine club was very gracious to provide the judges lunch but they was none left by the time we had finished. Now it was time get out and judge all of the other classes which we were responsible for.  Because of the emanate rain threat our team decided judge all of our cars and point the sheets after we finished which was 5:45PM. Going back over the sheets took about an hour.  My wife Tari is the national show secretary; she and I run the MCA tally room. That is where I went next. Luckily everything was going well there and was finished and ready for awards by 9PM. Finely time for dinner.  I did not point all of this out to bring any attention to myself but to show Dave and others that we were not rude at the conclusion of his judging (which had taken half of our judging time) but to say we were busy and did not have time to go over the deductions.  I do make it a point to go back to the cars that I have judged on Sunday and talk with the owners. Which I did but none of them were there. I will also point out that not having you car on display on Sunday can be cause for disqualification.

7.   I would be the first to admit that I make some mistakes but I try to learn from them and not repeat them. For me I have been honored to be chosen to be a part of these seasoned judges and learn from them. 

8.   Some good points have been made in the thread and I am confident the MCA will as all ways continue to raise the bar on its judging standards.

 Sincerely Marty Rupp
 

   


Offline Laurie S.

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2016, 02:17:42 PM »
If his car was not there on Sunday, and it was not raining, then he should have been disqualified.  I am so tired of owners not following the rules that require the cars to be on the show field on Sunday.  That rule needs to be enforced!


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Trouble, 1968 Fastback - Modified

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Offline caspian65

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2016, 02:38:01 PM »
We were told we could load up Saturday after 5 or anytime Sunday morning as the show site had to be completely vacated by around 2:30pm.
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
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Offline TLea

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2016, 02:52:00 PM »
Marty, I too agree this isn't the place to do this. I too am saddened. I too have invested tens of thousands of my own money as a volunteer to help people make their cars better (and I've never got compensated) For the most part I have stayed out of this ridiculous array of not much more than the same old defense, defense, defense. But enough is enough. I like you will not address scoring but your comments

Gentlemen,
I do not feel that a public forum is the place to debate the points taken on an individual’s judge sheet and I will not enter in to it here

Marty, There is no public understanding of appeal process, judges don't talk at shows, when courteous respectful emails are sent questioning controversial scoring accusations are made and people are kicked out

 I am certain everyone on the judging team in question would be more than willing to privately answer your concerns or questions

I believe Dave did try this privately and after judging was told no. Not sure what kind of confrontation would have been being outnumbered 4 to1 but the excuse (defense) given was "to avoid confrontation"
Here's how you avoid confrontation. Clear concise communication

There are only 12 or so experienced Shelby judges in the country  of which most are restorers for different reasons (which I will not get in to here ) no longer help the MCA judge. 

Great statement. I think the answer is worth "getting into" because it is the root of the issue

Statements made in the thread above seem to indicate you as owners are far more experienced in scoring than the judge team who were the club president, head judge, assistant head judge and a gold card judge.  My question is if you have so much knowledge and experience why are you not helping judge?

See previous statement. Qualified judges don't want to waste their time with politics egos and agendas. Leaves owners to fend for themselves. Just because someone has a "title" doesn't make then more knowledgeable than owners.

Just once it would be refreshing to hear "we were wrong"
Tim Lea  Shelby concours judge MCA, SAAC, Mid America

Offline Laurie S.

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2016, 02:59:26 PM »
We were told we could load up Saturday after 5 or anytime Sunday morning as the show site had to be completely vacated by around 2:30pm.

That is still wrong.  The cars could have been in place until 10 am with plenty of time to spare to load up and vacate.


Murphy, 1968 Coupe - Concours, Original Owner
Trouble, 1968 Fastback - Modified

MCA Gold Card Judge, 67-68 Concours
MCA Gold Card Judge, Modified - All Years

MCA National Show Committee Chairman

Online ChrisV289

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Re: St. Augustine MCA judging
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2016, 03:33:45 PM »
That is still wrong.  The cars could have been in place until 10 am with plenty of time to spare to load up and vacate.

Which rule number is it?  I see #14 that states: "All cars must remain in place during show hours. No engines may be started during show hours without prior approval of the National Head Judge or his designated representative. Violation of this rule will be grounds for disqualification." 
Chris
1965 Honey Gold Fastback