ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Body, Paint & Sealers => Topic started by: CharlesTurner on March 21, 2017, 12:15:00 PM
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It seems that there are 2 different strip caulk types that are made
The current 3M 8578 is most definitely a butyl-based material as it will stick/bond if strips are touched together. It never dries out and is very "tacky"/"sticky" to work with.
The material that AMK sells in gray color is not butyl based, which after reading up on, is commonly referred to as "rope caulk". It does not stick together with other strips, but can be kneaded together if desired.
What I have seen originally on at least 1st generation cars appears to have the consistency of rope sealer, not butyl.
Throwing this out there for discussion.
Attaching a pic of some old-school 3M strip-calk[sic] - (3M name brand). It appears this stuff is more like rope caulk. It has hardened a bit over time, but becomes pliable with a heat gun. I usually use a deep socket and roll it out flat to use.
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I have used both. The rope caulk by 3m seems to resemble what was used at the factory for the front fenders and gas tank. I'm not sure about the color, black verses gray.
The butyl sealer is typically used on window installations such as the quarter windows on a Fox body. If it was used in place of the rope caulk in the first gen. Cars, it would be very difficult to remove those parts for service. Basically, you need to cut the material to remove the part. Only comes in black I believe.
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I have used both. The rope caulk by 3m seems to resemble what was used at the factory for the front fenders and gas tank. I'm not sure about the color, black verses gray.
You're saying the 3M 8578 is rope caulk? The current version, probably been in use for 10 or more years is butyl-based for sure.
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I have used both. The rope caulk by 3m seems to resemble what was used at the factory for the front fenders and gas tank. I'm not sure about the color, black verses gray.
Ford service the stuff with a light gray in the 70-80's and since NOS was all the rage in early restoring of our cars many just accepted the color and assumed if it was NOS then it was correct and used it. And things IMHO that lead some astray is that once exposed to the elements and sun the original product will turn a much lighter color as it chalks, dries out and becomes brittle.
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Was the assembly line product used black in color ? I have seen this type (black) on restored cars.
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Was the assembly line product used black in color ? I have seen this type (black) on restored cars.
Yes, but seems to turn dark gray with age.
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Was the assembly line product used black in color ? I have seen this type (black) on restored cars.
Yes IMHO :)
You will find it used at the rear quarter panel extension holes near the back edge of the quarter panel on 65-6, around quarter extension mounting nuts, fender to inner fenders, gas tank mounting and plenty of other places
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http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/svo2scj/100_3619.jpg
I figured if it turned white faster than the 35 years the first stuff took I would be ok !
Mark
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http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/svo2scj/100_3619.jpg
I figured if it turned white faster than the 35 years the first stuff took I would be ok !
Mark
Yep that was the service replacement/NOS stuff they use to sell. Had a couple of rolls/boxes of the stuff. Just threw it away since I could not bring myself to selling it to some other restorer.
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I bought a couple different styles recently. The eastwood stuff seems to be too deep black in color.
As far as the 3M stuff. I have been using it since the late 80's. I know for a fact that it wasn't always the sticky messy type that it is now. Maybe it was changed to that style in 2004 as indicated in the reply from 3M. Regardless, I don't believe the current 3M style is correct at all in replicating what was on the cars originally. It works and makes maybe 95% of folks happy, but if we're going for authenticity, it simply does not hit the mark.
As far as defining the term 'rope caulk', I don't know if it's just a generic term, but most definitions I have found say it is putty based. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_caulk
The 3M stuff is most definitely butyl-based now, more like butyl cord or butyl tape.
Ford assembly manuals note ESB-M4G32-A, black sealer, .19" diameter
Synthetic resin plastic sealer
This sealer is specified for hand application and is applied in daubs or extruded beads or ribbons as required
SAE standards page for 'Synthetic resin plastic sealer':
http://standards.sae.org/j250_195905/
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Since there is mention of applications for the use of strip or rope caulk, would rope caulk be used at the factory for sealing between the 2 halfs of the heater box for the early 65 through 66 Mustangs? I've read through several threads and the consensus seems that be that most use the 3M 8578 but I'm not 100% sure rope caulk was even used while putting together the heater box at the factory, makes sense though. I'll be putting together my heater box soon.
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Since there is mention of applications for the use of strip or rope caulk, would rope caulk be used at the factory for sealing between the 2 halfs of the heater box for the early 65 through 66 Mustangs? I've read through several threads and the consensus seems that be that most use the 3M 8578 but I'm not 100% sure rope caulk was even used while putting together the heater box at the factory, makes sense though. I'll be putting together my heater box soon.
I haven't found any type of caulking between the heater box halves on 65-68 cars. Would be good to discuss in another thread.
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I haven't found any type of caulking between the heater box halves on 65-68 cars. Would be good to discuss in another thread.
Good idea. I'll start another thread later on.
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Charles,
The Original Caulking Cord Ford used at the Dearborn Assembly Plant 68-73 was Ford Part # AB-19560-A dark gray. Like all NOS Ford parts the production date means everything. Note the AUTOLITE box in the picture. This tells us the item was made prior to 1972. The box SVO2SCJ and Jeff reference is a totally different part # made years later. NOS parts produced within 5-10 years of vehicle production are identical to assembly line parts in nearly every application. NOS parts often get a bad rap by uneducated individuals who must believe all service parts were made in the 80's & 90's? Remember DAP assembly line parts and service parts all came thru the Wood Haven ( largest facility of its kind in the world) parts distribution center as the cars were built. All Dearborn Assy sheetmetal was primed at Wood Haven. Same fenders were shipped to DAP as service fenders wrapped in Ford paper to be shipped to dealers. No difference from Ford service parts and assembly line parts when they left Wood Haven. Real date code correct nos Mustang parts are a rare find today ,however it does not mean real assembly line service parts are not still available. If and when Ford parts division made the call to make a new supply of say fenders rather than obsolete them often new tooling or upgrades to tooling resulted in parts that would work but not exactly to original assembly line specs. I laugh when I see experts say Ford never serviced a correct 69 or 1970 Parking parking lamp or back up lamp. They sold thousands in Autolite box's, but not in 2005.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/n3lv9j.jpg)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/o6lis3.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/21l0nmh.jpg)
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Thanks Bob. That stuff looks more like the consistency of rope caulk... in other words, not the sticky butyl stuff.
Do you agree with me that the butyl style strip caulk was not used for 1st generation cars? I haven't found any original that was gooey and sticky.
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Charles,
The Original Caulking Cord Ford used at the Dearborn Assembly Plant 68-73 was Ford Part # AB-19560-A dark gray. Like all NOS Ford parts the production date means everything. Note the AUTOLITE box in the picture. This tells us the item was made prior to 1972. The box SVO2SCJ and Jeff reference is a totally different part # made years later. NOS parts produced within 5-10 years of vehicle production are identical to assembly line parts in nearly every application. NOS parts often get a bad rap by uneducated individuals who must believe all service parts were made in the 80's & 90's? Remember DAP assembly line parts and service parts all came thru the Wood Haven ( largest facility of its kind in the world) parts distribution center as the cars were built. All Dearborn Assy sheetmetal was primed at Wood Haven. Same fenders were shipped to DAP as service fenders wrapped in Ford paper to be shipped to dealers. No difference from Ford service parts and assembly line parts when they left Wood Haven. Real date code correct nos Mustang parts are a rare find today ,however it does not mean real assembly line service parts are not still available. If and when Ford parts division made the call to make a new supply of say fenders rather than obsolete them often new tooling or upgrades to tooling resulted in parts that would work but not exactly to original assembly line specs. I laugh when I see experts say Ford never serviced a correct 69 or 1970 Parking parking lamp or back up lamp. They sold thousands in Autolite box's, but not in 2005.
Hay Bob ! (Thanks for clicking on my photo) LOL Now that Jeff has us REALLY LOOKING at pictures I hope Bob's info above helps any that go to lengths to get things right. Have a look again (in the lower corner left of the drop cord handle). That was the last of the early caulk I had and it only made it 80% around after using under the shaker trim, front fenders.
I always say restorers are like "forensic pathologists" we can detremine the cause of damage, repair (read incorrect repair) and life of a car by the parts replaced/missing. It will be interesting if the "next generation" of collectors will be able to ID a car that has been restored to very high levels. MAYBE if there is still interest the hobby and people get past the first photo hit of Google 2069 some will find the finest cars don't have reproduction parts on them.
Mark
P.S. The way it is going I better remove the "points" from my Autolite housing and install a Petronix's or (just like the Model T of today) no one in "2069" will know to file and reset the points that have festered over in corosion!
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Your correct, not the sticky butyl 3M. Also , the strip caulk is applied before the fender is installed rather than after the fender is installed. I believe there is a one point deduction in the 69-70 Mustang/Boss class MCA 2017 rules per fender if applied after installation.
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This one my favorite photos (before and after) as we found the SCJ in the junkyard in AZ. (BLOB OF CAULK)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/svo2scj/AZ%20R%20code%20restoration/AZmustang080.jpg) (http://s38.photobucket.com/user/svo2scj/media/AZ%20R%20code%20restoration/AZmustang080.jpg.html)
After
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/svo2scj/IMG_5628_zps68f7163a.jpg) (http://s38.photobucket.com/user/svo2scj/media/IMG_5628_zps68f7163a.jpg.html)
Mark
P.S. I haven't looked at these photos in 7 years! So lazy I didn't want to take new photo under the cover.
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So this is a box of the 3M stuff that I've had for a while. Kind of given up using it. Have bought other boxes and they look the same when I get them. The strips are kind of flattened and the paper is hard to remove. When I try to pull a strip off, it is stuck to another strip and gets stringy when I pull on it. Have I just had bad luck and gotten crap batches? I remember using 3M strip caulk in the 90's and don't recall it being so difficult to use.
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Recently found some strip caulk, Norton brand, 82760. It's a deep black, comes in nice well formed strips that don't stick to each other. When I try to stretch it apart, it breaks and doesn't get all stringy like the 3M stuff. It measures nearly the correct spec (Ford called out .19" in assembly manuals). Unfortunately, I believe this strip caulk is no longer available as I tried searching on the web. I bought 2 boxes, so this will most likely be my go-to stuff until I find something better.
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This one my favorite photos (before and after) as we found the SCJ in the junkyard in AZ. (BLOB OF CAULK)
Think the worst example I found was a 69 Deaborn car where about 4-5" of the strip fell off the fender during installation and formed itself to the inner fender panel almost to the bend in the inner edge.
Here are a few examples of the product on 65-66's
As dum-dum to cover the open hole in the rear edge of the quarter panel
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230317220544.jpeg)
To seal the gas tank to body
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230317220601.jpeg)
Strip of sealant that somehow became detached during the installation of the fender.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230317220644.jpeg)
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Did go out yesterday and visited about a half dozen paint supply houses locally. Looks at the 3M and other brands of rope chalking and found that 3M (from what was available locally) was likely better than the other brands I looked at. It was tackier that what I recall but lost this as I worked some together to form bigger "ropes" but still not the same. In general the other brands all had a shinny outer surface (3M didn't) just laying in the box. Product might improve if I introduce some dry graphite to the mix if I was forced to use some of those. 3M was the most expensive of the brands, not a big surprise. Others were as low as 50% of 3M's price.
None on the shops I visited were currently carrying the Norton brand will have to check north of me maybe next week. Unfortunately allot of the places I already stopped at have other branches north of me so I don't hold out hope they will have any Norton in stock.
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I bought a box of the Eastwood stuff, haven't received it yet. Pics on the Eastwood website show it looking a lot like the Norton stuff.
That old 3M stuff on page 1 of this thread looks just like the original I have found. Too bad it's hardened up, although it can still be used, just takes extra effort to heat it before using.
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I have a box from AMK purchased 20 years ago which is gray and slightly tacky.
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I have a box from AMK purchased 20 years ago which is gray and slightly tacky.
The AMK strip caulk would be perfect if it came in black also.
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Did the factory use a "grease gun" type applicator?
Jim
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Did the factory use a "grease gun" type applicator?
Jim
Not for the caulking used at the fenders and gas tank. The caulk behind the door weather-shields may have been applied with a gun, although I have seen globs of strip caulk used to seal where the window regulator shaft section sticks through the door shell.
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Did the factory use a "grease gun" type applicator?
Jim
Don't believe so. You can sometimes find a small wad of the stuff under carpet, underlayment or tossed in a back corner of a door or quarter panel where it was dropped or tossed
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I bought a box of the Eastwood stuff, haven't received it yet. Pics on the Eastwood website show it looking a lot like the Norton stuff.
That old 3M stuff on page 1 of this thread looks just like the original I have found. Too bad it's hardened up, although it can still be used, just takes extra effort to heat it before using.
Did you get the Eastwood stuff yet? Interested in what you think about it.
Mark
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Received the Eastwood order, looks exactly the same as the Norton strip caulk.
I would much rather use this Eastwood/Norton style strip caulk. It keeps it's form, is soft and pliable and not stringy/gooey like the 3M.
Would recommend to any of the parts vendors reading this that they may want to consider replacing the 3M product with something like from Eastwood.
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Received the Eastwood order, looks exactly the same as the Norton strip caulk.
I would much rather use this Eastwood/Norton style strip caulk. It keeps it's form, is soft and pliable and not stringy/gooey like the 3M.
Would recommend to any of the parts vendors reading this that they may want to consider replacing the 3M product with something like from Eastwood.
Charles,
Is the Eastwood strip caulk adhesive at all? I need to seal the taillight lens on a Fox body and thinking the Eastwood product might be easier to work with and still do the job?
Rod
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The Eastwood caulk should be a lot easier to work with. It isn't sticky/gooey like the 3M product.
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Thanks, I have some of the 3M product and it is sticky! ;)