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Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Drivetrain => Topic started by: mungus on July 21, 2017, 07:21:52 AM

Title: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: mungus on July 21, 2017, 07:21:52 AM
Hello! At the risk or being told to look elsewhere, I will wade into the much discussed "what is the correct color for my engine?".

Of course I've read a few threads on engine colors here. Very good stuff. However its a little more complicated down here in Australia as we don't have access to products like Plastikote 224 and even the USA PPG codes don't always translate into the local stock well. Likewise the Duplicolor DE 1621 is hard to find here too (although the brand itself does exist in OZ). My reading so far, has convinced me that my 68' does not use the darker 69' onwards paint, nor the very light blue seen on some early 60's ford engines. True? Please correct me if not the case.

So anyway I bought 3 shades of locally available VHT Ford engine paint (Ford COMP Blue, OLD Ford blue and NEW Ford blue), and tested them on some sheet metal, then compared them to some aged original looking paint remnants on my block AND a spare 68' block I had lying around. The closest of these by far, was "OLD FORD BLUE" (VHT code SP153). I noted that that name has been applied to a couple of other manufacturers offerings, including the often suggested Plastikote 224 and Duplicolor 1621 . The VHT Old Ford Blue (SP153) looks very close to the Duplicolor 1621 in one attachment I posted here. Which gave me some hope that its OK.

Unfortunately I find my iPhone camera's photos only shows up poorly on the web, so not a lot of use posting them up. However I have attached 2 head photos using VHT OLD FORD BLUE, and the POR chart.

Anyway after all that I was then told they were ALL wrong, you need the POR15 engine paint "Ford Corporate Blue". Great.  :-)
So with some hassle and expense I bought some and sprayed my water pump, timing cover and thermostat housing. The paint itself leaves a lovely finish, (albeit its not as forgiving as VHT rattle cans), but I cant help thinking its just too dark! To complicate matters a new Scott Drake 67' air cleaner I have on the shelf is another color again! And I understand the 67' & 68' engines are the same colour? Is Scott Drake right with their colour? (I mean to say, they aren't exactly known for always being dead nuts on). Its a different shade from any of the colors I've seen touted as being correct. As an aside, should the air cleaner base and its engine be the same shade of blue? Always seems to be that way when I see other 68' cars.

So has anyone here tried that POR15 paint? Opinions? Based on the web photos of parts painted with DE1621 I can't help thinking the VHT Old Ford Blue is pretty close for my March 68' S code's engine.

I've also  noted a few photos of finished 67 / 68 S code engine bays like the one attached, that seem pretty close to the Old Ford Blue...
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: CharlesTurner on July 21, 2017, 10:11:38 AM
The 'Old Ford Blue' formula must have changed, it used to be a lot lighter.

PPG DAR 13358 is the correct paint code, but even that could have some variance.  Although, paint application at the engine plant was quick and usually light, which translates to different appearance of the paint.

NPD sells a matched version of 13358 in a spray can that is an engine enamel.  I know it's not catalyzed, but it's a good substitute for those that may not have spray gun equipment or facilities.
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: Bob Gaines on July 21, 2017, 01:48:24 PM
I had a restorer friend use POR 15 corporate blue paint on a engine for a client. I was speechless when I saw how off the color /shade were on his freshly installed 428CJ engine. I didn't know what to say . Rather then listen to me prior to that about the POR ,he felt compelled to take the word of the POR rep on how exact it was over my opinion.  The restorer is a thinks he is superior ,Engineer degree, re invents the wheel etc. you know the type.  Of course it took deductions at a concours event before he believed me. Long story short he had no idea what he didn't know (I saw the disdain for me every time i pointed  things out which he requested) and eventually freaked out with how many issues to fix and left the client high and dry. Client took it to another shop which I had previously suggested (he thought they were too high before) and had the engine removed stripped and repainted with the ppg . All is right with the world. :D   
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: jwc66k on July 21, 2017, 04:36:52 PM
- (this) - restorer is a thinks he is superior ,Engineer degree, re invents the wheel etc. you know the type.
Some of us engineering "types" take offence to your comment. My name is on several patents, not wheels - but as important (think communications satellite) as co-inventor. I'm that type. There are others on this forum that fit that profile.
Jim
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: Bob Gaines on July 21, 2017, 05:26:07 PM
Some of us engineering "types" take offence to your comment. My name is on several patents, not wheels - but as important (think communications satellite) as co-inventor. I'm that type. There are others on this forum that fit that profile.
Jim
Jim ,no offense meant to you. Let me clarify,not meant to apply to all but just the small percentage that make up that closed minded ,better and smarter then everyone else stereotype of those that are.  Some doctors (small percentage) fit that profile too. Just trying to paint the picture of the closed minded superior mindset of the person I am referring to for the purpose of the post.   
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: J_Speegle on July 21, 2017, 07:30:04 PM
So has anyone here tried that POR15 paint? Opinions? .................

Have not tried it for any of my projects - found what worked for me so no reason to consider the product. Have seen it on others and was not impressed.

Remember you can't compare pictures to tell what the colors and shine look like. Way too many variables when we look at posted or published pictures, digital cameras, settings and so forth.  Spray samples and comparing them to original painted parts from the same year and engine plant is the only way to get close IMHO. Yers I understand this can be difficult for some. Just one reason the forums were created so we can share our individual findings, experiments and trials
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: mungus on July 21, 2017, 07:43:01 PM
Thanks Bob, at least I know POR15 isn't the right color, that's something. I'll stop using it.

On the other side of the discussion, how about the color my heads are painted? As Jeff's post rightly points out, it's hard to tell from a web photo, but does it look ball part at least?

Lastly should the air cleaner base be the same shade as the engine?

Thanks to all.

BTW I'm also one of those guys with a degree! 2 in fact, (makes me twice as silly). :-)
However im the first to say I met some of the stupidest people ever at University!
I like to use the Duke of Wellington's quote when people tell me someone who graduated uni must be smart:
"Being born in a barn doesn't make one a horse".
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: J_Speegle on July 21, 2017, 09:15:14 PM
Lastly should the air cleaner base be the same shade as the engine?

We don't know (that I'm aware of) for sure where the air cleaner was painted. But from observations they typically are an incredible IMHO close match (lid, snorkel and so on) to the engine possibly suggesting they were painted at the engine plant.
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: mungus on July 21, 2017, 09:58:34 PM
Thanks Jeff, that's what I figured.
Am I right in saying 67-68' cars used this kind of shade though?
(Old ford blue / plasticote 224 etc)
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: J_Speegle on July 21, 2017, 10:37:23 PM
Thanks Jeff, that's what I figured.
Am I right in saying 67-68' cars used this kind of shade though?
(Old ford blue / plasticote 224 etc)

What sized engines? 

Why ask?  Its just me - I've noticed that for me the FE engines were often slightly darker than the small blocks possibly since they were painted at different places a slightly different mix or supplier may have been the cause though the PPG color is still the base or accept standard.


For small blocks and 6 cylinders I always found that the Plasticote was the closest for me but haven't used rattle cans and years and their current product might be slightly different.  Sorry for all the wavering just want to be specific in my response ;)
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: mungus on July 21, 2017, 10:57:01 PM
Nope that's totally fine, I would do the same.

The big thing for me is that its in the ballpark for 1968 390's. In other words that it isn't the later dark blue of the 70's or the light sky blue of the early years. Beyond that I'm not super fussy as it seems there was variation, as you point out.

However I get a little confused when I see a post like this; http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=14476.0
Which shows a 67 390GT motor with what appears to be a darker shade of blue than the typical "old ford blue" I am using, or 224, although not as dark as the 69' onwards cars. Even then when I edit those images (they were underexposed) the color becomes closer to mine...

However I would say that motor is closer to Rustoleum's 298946 "old ford blue" than either Plastikote 224, VHT "old ford blue" or Duplicolor's DE1621. Heres a swatch of the Rustoleum F Y I. I only ask as that poster requested advice on correctness from you guys and no one mentioned the color... ???

BTW I finally took and uploaded some comparisons between fresh VHT old ford blue (over VHT primer) and the POR15 corp blue items.
Pretty darn obvious...

So Jeff / Bob, can I ask, if you were me, which rattle can color would you choose for your own 68' FE motor?
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: J_Speegle on August 16, 2017, 04:55:49 PM
BTW I finally took and uploaded some comparisons between fresh VHT old ford blue (over VHT primer) and the POR15 corp blue items.
Pretty darn obvious...

So Jeff / Bob, can I ask, if you were me, which rattle can color would you choose for your own 68' FE motor?

Give us and viewers a hint :) if you please

Which one (timing cover verses block color)  is which paint. No reason to guess but would guess that the block is the POR15
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: Bob Gaines on August 16, 2017, 07:34:34 PM
Give us and viewers a hint :) if you please

Which one (timing cover verses block color)  is which paint. No reason to guess but would guess that the block is the POR15
Monitors make it difficult to make a determination. In person the shade may appear completely different.  Jeff convinced me of that years ago. This is a case in point. The POR product that I have seen is typically much darker and a different shade as well compared to most any of the rattle can paints or the PPG that I am used to using. I have not used the VHT product but have heard of others without issue. I cant comment on the VHT color equivalency . The engine paints don't typically have to have a primer used . If I had the engine out of the car I would use the PPG. If you are going to take a short cut (because the rattle can paint doesn't hold up as good) I will let others suggest a rattle can product.   
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: J_Speegle on August 17, 2017, 05:17:24 PM
So Jeff / Bob, can I ask, if you were me, which rattle can color would you choose for your own 68' FE motor?

If it were me the choice would be neither. Sorry I know that will not help but as mentioned the computer screen  will at best only provide (between the two) which one MIGHT be closer but that does not still mean its my choice. Have seen many paints where in the shade they look OK but if the car at the show is situated where the sun lights up the engine it can look purple or just off.  Your not comparing each of your choices to any originally paint part in the picture and this is an important decision and like body color, oversprays and such not something that is easy to undo once you have the car together and I'm sure that is why your trying to take the time and make a good choice.

Dupli-Color spray paints for Ford engines is one of the rattle cans I used 20 plus years ago that I found was close to what I was seeing on original big blocks from your time period. I have no recent experiences with their products so don't know if they changed them over time.

Sorry can't provide a thumbs up on either of your two choices given the parameters we have here
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: mungus on August 26, 2017, 11:57:50 PM
Give us and viewers a hint :) if you please
Which one (timing cover verses block color)  is which paint. No reason to guess but would guess that the block is the POR15

Sorry I guessed many readers would have used or seen the POR-15 Ford Corp Blue. My bad.
The Block is an older batch of VHT "Old Ford Blue" rattle can, over VHT engine primer, and the timing cover is the POR-15 Ford Corp Blue.
As you can see its nowhere near the 67/68' Ford colours, IMHO closer to the 69' onwards darker blues if anything.

I totally agree monitors and even digital cameras makes getting an appreciation of the actual color difficult.
Even within the same product things change a lot. I recently bought some new cans of the VHT "Old Ford Blue" color and when I compared them to the older batches they were (I'm pleased to say) a nicer shade of blue and much closer to the claimed "concours correct" engine bays I've seen from 67/68'. So now that the engine is almost complete I've masked and over-sprayed with the new VHT batch. The old and new VHT batch colors are maybe 1/2 a shade apart, but its noticeable.
The attached photo is the new batch paint. Once again iPhone camera and monitor's being what they are. Interestingly a friend who had the remnants of a Duplicolor Ford 1621 rattle can, sprayed some panel steel as a sample and brought it over. Held next to the block its seems to be close to being a match. I should have grabbed a side by side photo but that's old age I guess!

My original intention was to draw attention to how far off the POR-15 Corp Blue colour was, rather than ask for a thumbs up. But I'm please the comparison photo is at least out there for others to see. Its not cheap paint that POR-15, and its also a bit tricky to apply compared to VHT rattle cans, and its not as heat resistant either. In fact the only thing it was supposed to have going for it in my books was the color, but even that's off! I also don't like the uber lustre finish that seems to fill in casting grains with even lightly sprayed coats. Hardly a factory look in my view. But unless you've seen it how can a prospective purchaser ever know? Anyway blasted it all off and repainted with the VHT "Old Ford Blue" now, so lesson learned.

PS: Apologies for the drain cock in the block, just temporary until its verified as running OK etc, then the glycol and AMK plug will go in.
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: rrenz on August 27, 2017, 08:25:07 AM
Used the VHT/Dupli Color myself on my 66. As far as durability its been about 2 years now with occasional driving with only minimal touchups with a fine brush here and there. Only issue I ran into was 1 can of the 3 that I had purchased was a mile off as far as color shade was concerned. Had to buy additional cans and do spray outs first to confirm proper color consistency. Ive always felt that it appeared to be a bit too dark but was very happy with its appearance. Like previously noted the color will look different inside and out, when the sun hits it Etc
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: NEFaurora on November 23, 2017, 12:43:08 PM
 

I've been using PlastiKote's High Heat Engine Paint stuff for the past 20 years with a high rate of success.  It's quality stuff...and I think that the colors are pretty accurate. ../and it sure wears like iron!!  PS: Don't forget to use their Engine Primer for really tough wear...  I just love the stuff.

Just a suggestion!

:o)

Tony K.
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: J_Speegle on November 23, 2017, 02:31:57 PM


I've been using PlastiKote's High Heat Engine Paint stuff for the past 20 years with a high rate of success.  It's quality stuff...and I think that the colors are pretty accurate. ../and it sure wears like iron!!  PS: Don't forget to use their Engine Primer for really tough wear...  I just love the stuff.

As another suggestion remember that originally no primer was used and its application, along with applying too much paint will lead to produce an unoriginal finish and look.  We see allot of engines both rattle canned and painted that come out looking like they were dipped in paint/plastic whick really stand out as incorrect
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: evantugby on January 25, 2018, 10:24:47 PM
Used POR-15 Ford Corporate Blue.  The first spray came out tacky so we diluted it with mineral spirits (as a reducer) and it went on perfect the second and third coat.  The reducer really helped the paint lay down better.  Check out the pictures.  And the color looks dead on to me.

Pic 1:  Me putting on first coat
Pic 2:  How it looks after first coat with no mineral spirit as reducer.  See the tackiness? 
Pic 3:  After 2-3 coats with mineral spirits as a reducer.  This was in a semi-low light area. 
Pic 4:  Final product in a very high-lit area without any natural light. 
PIc 5:  Updated on 1 April 2018.  I wanted to add another picture in natural light.  Note:  The engine is not even close to concours yet, still have lots to do, but this picture is simply to look at the POR 15 Ford Corporate Blue with a reducer sprayed on a 1965 289 HiPo. 
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: Bob Gaines on January 26, 2018, 01:22:46 AM
Used POR-15 Ford Corporate Blue.  The first spray came out tacky so we diluted it with mineral spirits (as a reducer) and it went on perfect the second and third coat.  The reducer really helped the paint lay down better.  Check out the pictures.  And the color looks dead on to me.

Pic 1:  Me putting on first coat
Pic 2:  How it looks after first coat with no mineral spirit as reducer.  See the tackiness? 
Pic 3:  After 2-3 coats with mineral spirits as a reducer.  This was in a semi-low light area. 
Pic 4:  Final product in a very high-lit area
It is hard to determine if correct shade in my monitor. It depends on lighting and the monitor. For instance in one of your pictures of the painted block the shade appeared to be more like the Ford light blue . In another picture it appeared a little darker. Based on that I for one couldn't make a call one way or the other.
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: evantugby on April 01, 2018, 09:20:34 AM
For those in the future struggling to match paint.  I pulled this information from deadnutson.com

Ford Corp Blue Paint Info:
PPG Delstar Ditzler DAR-TCP 13358 (H)  acrylic enamel
DXR 80 Delthane Ultra Urethane Hardener
Ditzler DX 265 All Purpose Flatting Base (25% to 30%)
DTR-601 Reducer (HVLP gun x 2)

Good rattle can black paint for console: SEM 15013 Landau Black Color Coat


http://www.deadnutson.com/page/page/4586632.htm

Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: WT8095 on April 01, 2018, 01:04:40 PM
Another factor to consider is that these motors were painted 50 years ago. The paint has aged, been exposed to high and low temperatures (many cycles too), and was subjected to various petroleum products and other chemicals. So comparing new paint to original parts does not guarantee a match to the original color when it was fresh. Plus, the original paint may have varied slighty from batch to batch, especially if multiple paint suppliers were used (I don't know if that happened).
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: Bob Gaines on April 01, 2018, 01:41:15 PM
For those in the future struggling to match paint.  I pulled this information from deadnutson.com

Ford Corp Blue Paint Info:
PPG Delstar Ditzler DAR-TCP 13358 (H)  acrylic enamel
DXR 80 Delthane Ultra Urethane Hardener
Ditzler DX 265 All Purpose Flatting Base (25% to 30%)
DTR-601 Reducer (HVLP gun x 2)

Good rattle can black paint for console: SEM 15013 Landau Black Color Coat


http://www.deadnutson.com/page/page/4586632.htm
I hope you used this PPG product and repainted your engine block. The PPG paint is what I have used and was happy with the results.The POR 15 products shade of blue is noticeably different then what was used at Ford from the times I have seen it in person.
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: carlite65 on April 01, 2018, 01:59:31 PM
'The POR 15 products shade of blue is noticeably different then what was used at Ford from the times I have seen it in person.'

agree with bob here. not the proper shade of blue.
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: J_Speegle on April 01, 2018, 07:59:26 PM
PPG paint has been the standard and the most widely used, in my observations, over the last 30 or so years. No reason to reinvent the wheel especially since it can result in something that will stand out in the crowd of other cars you are likely going to be parked next to. 
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: mgreene on May 03, 2018, 03:22:11 PM
Used POR-15 Ford Corporate Blue.  The first spray came out tacky so we diluted it with mineral spirits (as a reducer) and it went on perfect the second and third coat.  The reducer really helped the paint lay down better.  Check out the pictures.  And the color looks dead on to me.

Pic 1:  Me putting on first coat
Pic 2:  How it looks after first coat with no mineral spirit as reducer.  See the tackiness? 
Pic 3:  After 2-3 coats with mineral spirits as a reducer.  This was in a semi-low light area. 
Pic 4:  Final product in a very high-lit area without any natural light. 
PIc 5:  Updated on 1 April 2018.  I wanted to add another picture in natural light.  Note:  The engine is not even close to concours yet, still have lots to do, but this picture is simply to look at the POR 15 Ford Corporate Blue with a reducer sprayed on a 1965 289 HiPo.

Wouldn't a '65 Hi-Po be black?  ;)
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: carlite65 on May 03, 2018, 04:36:57 PM
yep.
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 03, 2018, 07:08:10 PM
Wouldn't a '65 Hi-Po be black?  ;)
Ford documents indicate that Ford would have completed the change over to blue by Aug 15 of 1965 if memory serves. With that said we know of instances that seem to contradict that. Possibly all new engines built from that time on or maybe it took longer to use up supplies I am not sure. Anyway there is document evidence to suggest that very late production built 65 cars could have had blue engines . I wouldn't bet my life that all 65 production engines were black given the factory circumstantial evidence .   
Title: Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
Post by: J_Speegle on May 03, 2018, 07:27:20 PM
Of course these would likely be cars built in the last weeks of production if it did take place and even proving a car was built during that time can be a challenge.

Don't know if anyone has collected the engine assembly dates from the ID tags on the engines that are claimed to be originally blue from 65 production cars. For the builder, unless you have proof, the general consensus it's likely the best choice. Oddities and the possibility of their existence are fun to discuss but go with the common accepted practices unless you want to be that guy and have something to back it up.

Not sure if we'll ever be able to figure it out for sure - but sometimes it the journey that leads us to new understandings or reinforce what we already know and accept :)