ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Body, Paint & Sealers => Topic started by: 67gtasanjose on June 26, 2014, 07:29:22 AM
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I have searched the forum, but no luck finding my answer. It seems everyone has to have seen the frame rails on many early Mustang's damaged from jacking or use of jackstands. Mine is no different. All along the bottom side of the front frame rails, portions are pushed up maybe as much as 1/4 inch in spots.
It there a prefered way to work these out that requires little filler to finish? I have thought of different ideas, but there MUST be a "best way" to do this.
Richard
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Richard,
One approach would be to drill a series of holes in the toe board and/or floor pan just above the area that is damaged. Then, use an appropriately sized rod to gently tap the metal back into position. Once you have the frame rails straight, you could plug weld the drilled holes in the floor. I am sure other members will have suggestions for you, too. Good luck. Mark
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Richard,
One approach would be to drill a series of holes in the toe board and/or floor pan just above the area that is damaged. Then, use an appropriately sized rod to gently tap the metal back into position. Once you have the frame rails straight, you could plug weld the drilled holes in the floor. I am sure other members will have suggestions for you, too. Good luck. Mark
A good idea !! As good of a idea as it is it not the best for all cases because it is not guaranteed to address all of the possible problems especially on a frame rail with a lot of damage. Best way is to cut out the sheet metal in the narrow section above the rail for the most access to the problem. After the fix the sheet metal can be welded back as before. It doesn't necessarily have to be dressed that well as it will be covered by the carpet.
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There is another way.
Body shops weld pins to sections of metal and use a slide hammer type of tool to pull the dents out. At the completion of the job, the pins break off nearly flush. It would be a lot less invasive. You could probably google it on youtube.
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...Best way is to cut out the sheet metal in the narrow section above the rail for the most access to the problem. After the fix the sheet metal can be welded back as before. It doesn't necessarily have to be dressed that well as it will be covered by the carpet.
This was ONE of the ideas but my archival training that says to "not do any damage" conflicts the idea (but yes, I have to get to it SOMEHOW)
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There is another way.
Body shops weld pins to sections of metal and use a slide hammer type of tool to pull the dents out. At the completion of the job, the pins break off nearly flush. It would be a lot less invasive.
Probably what I intended on trying, but buying a tool for a few hour work, and then who knows how long before I need it again. (yet I am not sure how good it will pull this gauge of steel) I was thinking this approach could work with several "nails" spotted in and applying heat with a torch, (using the slip-grip attachment to move back and forth between the "nails")
Something like this is available at Harbor Freight. Has anybody bought one?
Richard
Here's a few reviews, anybody else use one for this EXACT task?
http://www.harborfreight.com/stud-welder-dent-repair-kit-98357.html
The car is on it's side on the rotisserie, so it it really easy to get to all sides of this at this time.
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I've done AOTA (all of the above) and they all have their place. The stud welder/dent puller works where the dent is "kindler and gentler". If there are particularly hard dents (like those when a car is dropped on a jack stand or hit a curb) the strategically placed hole method or the cut out method Bob mentioned is what is needed because the stud welds won't do the job.
Talking through the cut out method in more detail, I get the thinnest cut off wheel that I can find, removing the least amount of material. Then cut one long and two short sides. Next I fold the metal over on the one long side not cut. This provides full access and you can do the best job over a large area. When done fold the metal back down and weld it up. With the one side uncut it will be perfecly placed, and with a thin cut the job goes easy. The weld clean up really is up to you as to how nice you make it.
I've used 3x3x1/4" angle iron supported by hydraulic jacks to provide something to pound against. Personally I would get to the point where very little filler is required. With proper access, proper back support, and some patience you might be surprised how good of a job can be done.
The hole method to me is ok for one or two dents, but depending on the hole size you could have quite a bit of area to cover. That is why I like the cut and fold method.
If you end up with a rust situation, look out for the replacement rails. Like most repop stuff, they can't seem to make it right. I did a pass side front rail and the replacement was 3/4" long, the sheet metal was thicker than original (obvious to the naked eye), and the dolly hole was off 1/2". Took a lot of prep work to make it look right.
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There is another way.
Body shops weld pins to sections of metal and use a slide hammer type of tool to pull the dents out. At the completion of the job, the pins break off nearly flush. It would be a lot less invasive. You could probably google it on youtube.
The frame rails are much thicker metal then the typical sheet metal this procedure was designed for. You will most likely pop the head off the pins before you pull the dent out of that frame rail metal flat unlike if you go after it from the back side . I have a shop that I work with that repairs frame rails regularly and speak from experience .
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The frame rails are much thicker metal then the typical sheet metal this procedure was designed for. You will most likely pop the head off the pins before you pull the dent out of that frame rail metal flat unlike if you go after it from the back side .
That is about what I was thinking too. Thanks Bob.
The stud welder/dent puller works where the dent is "kindler and gentler"... ;)
...I've used 3x3x1/4" angle iron supported by hydraulic jacks to provide something to pound against. Personally I would get to the point where very little filler is required. With proper access, proper back support, and some patience you might be surprised how good of a job can be done.
;D
And then John's idea with the Angle Iron, I like that idea too. The ones I need to work on are not too awfully deep, but since it IS the thicker metal, I had my doubts what was the best tactic. I have a few select other areas around the car that the dent puller discussed would help out on, so I'll likely get it anyways. Maybe give it a try and when (or if) it fails to help on the frame, I'll move swiftly into plan "B" and/or "C".
Thanks everyone for the input. Everybody's ideas closely matched up with what I was thinking but thought I'd ask from those who have gone there before me. Trying to be the least invasive as I can be.
Richard
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The frame rails are much thicker metal then the typical sheet metal this procedure was designed for. You will most likely pop the head off the pins before you pull the dent out of that frame rail metal flat unlike if you go after it from the back side . I have a shop that I work with that repairs frame rails regularly and speak from experience .
+1. The metal is too thick and studs will break at head
One point to remember, if the metal by dolly holes (#1 and 3 dollies) is bent downward it is most likely from rail ties and IMO considered original
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+1. The metal is too thick and studs will break at head
One point to remember, if the metal by dolly holes (#1 and 3 dollies) is bent downward it is most likely from rail ties and IMO considered original
Tim, thanks for bringing that up. Some damage is there too, but I was actually going to ask about a torn and welded dolly hole at one of the rear, ahead of axle places. I am sure the frame wasn't ever stretched at a body shop along it's life and the repair (weld) was a bit "cheesy" looking. It looked like it was ripped with a dolly pin somehow to me.
Would anybody care to see an image? It is another undercarriage issue I wondered the best way to repair. I'm not sure if it (the weld) was painted or sealed. I can try cleaning around it some tonight and shoot a picture.
Richard
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I've seen them on before but never welded.
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Just to get an idea what I am working with, here are a few shots of the problem areas, before too much stripping of the surfaces.
You can see the dolly hole that has been welded looks to be welded after the primer/sealer bath. Then you see some stretching or elongated holes at the other center dolly holes. The very front two dolly holes below the radiator and the two back near the rear bumper look normal.
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Just to get an idea what I am working with, here are a few shots of the problem areas, before too much stripping of the surfaces.
You can see the dolly hole that has been welded looks to be welded after the primer/sealer bath........
Bath?? Cheap cars like Mustangs didn't get dipped in primer sealer like the more expensive larger car like T Birds
As for the damage - looks like hundreds I've seen - got tome work ahead of you
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Bath?? Cheap cars like Mustangs didn't get dipped in primer sealer like the more expensive larger car like T Birds
As for the damage - looks like hundreds I've seen - got tome work ahead of you
OK, probably wrote that out wrong, the application is such a soaking, maybe I could have written as primer/sealer "shower" to be more accurate.
Jeff, what do you make of the dolly hole damage? In particular the way the holes are stretched and also the repaired (welded) one? Obviously, the damage can all be worked out, but could that damage have occurred on the line somehow?
As i mentioned in a previous comment, I am sure 100% sure this car hasn't made it's way onto any frame equipment that might have used those holes for alignment or pulling purposes. I myself, have been responsible for all repair and repaint (the good, the bad and the ugly) along the way. This car had all original, un-repaired panels when I first got it, with every shopping cart scratch, ding & dent that 10 years could give to any unrestored original vehicle used in (unloved) daily driving. No sign of fading/unmatching paint touch-ups, or any panel replacement before me, and today, all date codes consistently match on the car, with the only exceptions being parts I know that I have changed. (known original fender, door, hood, quarter-panels, rear valance etc., all have consistant date codes)
As I said, I will more than likely repair all of the damaged areas anyways, but this particular area of damage doesn't seem to match the vehicle history I have on the car by any means. It seems the only explanation I could possibly imagine as having occurred on the line. Maybe not the only one, maybe it is, IDK, but there it is and damage to all 4 holes, 3 rather significant and one to the point of needing welded.
Thanks for any input.
Richard
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Jeff, what do you make of the dolly hole damage? In particular the way the holes are stretched and also the repaired (welded) one? Obviously, the damage can all be worked out, but could that damage have occurred on the line somehow?
Most of your pictures show IMHO typical bottle jack (and other choices) damage from years gone by
Picture #1 though is possibly an example of factory damage if that is a round pressed in damage, divot
Often see damage at that location from the car being tied down in the rail cars but normally its not directly on the inner edge but at a angle back towards the rear as if they crossed the chains from one passenger side to attach on the drivers side (as an example) to secure the car down. This picture does not look like those examples
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-290614190721.jpeg)
Have seen similar damage before, believe it was likely a result of the worker in charge of lower the unibody on to the second conveyor while lowering it down on the rearend suspension and driveline like shown in the Assembly line pictures on this site (check the 68 San Jose pictures of the body drop and the Cougar. There was a body "pad" on each side of the car at that location and looking at the picture is appears to me that there the pad includes a pin on each. The damage in the picture may be one of those pins misaligned with the dolly hole for some reason
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-290614191920.jpeg)
My best guess at this time
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Richard,
How did it turn out? any progress pics to post?
Been lurking and waiting to see how you dealt with it.
Michael
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Richard,
How did it turn out? any progress pics to post?
Been lurking and waiting to see how you dealt with it.
Michael
No repairs made just yet. I've been scrubbing the many years of road grime off lately, looking for original paint & markings as I scrub. I plan on documenting the work and will post pictures, if not at this thread, in another one showing all the underbody paint found. I will try and remember to post a few here also, ones dealing with the repair of the areas I pictured earlier in this thread.
I am positive now the damage occured prior to recieving the application of body color on the assembly line. Original paint overspray found inside the weld and it is consistant with the angle of overspray angle patterns found nearby on other sections of the floorpan. As I said in an earlier post, 3 of the 4 center dowl holes were damaged. I believe Jeffs comment about being dropped missaligned could explain it. All 4 had some damage, but three were all damaged in the same sides of the holes, the welded one being the worst example.
I'm not sure if it could be related to an accident of the workers "dropping" the body wrong, or if maybe it were not completely onbolted from the rail and damaged that way somehow. I say this because there is also a peculiar damage on the inner sail panel structure, both sides, up near the roof panel like damaged while lifting the body with some sort of fixture through the back window openining, of possibly through the roof, while the roof panel was not yet installed.
Assembly line lifting knowledge of the sub-assembly is not anything I claim any knowledge of, I simply see what looks consistant to some sort of assembly line mishap or two, a mishap (or two) that my example could be the only one.
Richard
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Link to other floorpan pictures and/or progress
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=9184.msg53880#msg53880
Richard
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For aesthetic purposes, for dents up to 1/4" or so, you can use the 2 part bonding adhesive for corvettes. It works well and stays in place. If the area has one of the holes in it, find a socket the same size as the hole, wrap it in wax paper and insert it in the hole before applying the adhesive. The wax paper will prevent the adhesive from sticking and the socket can be removed when the dent is filled in. Usually a couple of applications takes care of it. I've done this on many cars and the material has never come off....the adhesive is very, very strong. It is available in black with black hardener from Bair's Corvette's.
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For aesthetic purposes, for dents up to 1/4" or so, you can use the 2 part bonding adhesive for corvettes. .......
Think the challenge is that so close to the edge of the dolly hole any filler would be easy to pick out since the edge of the hole would be inconsistent.
Just a thought. In other locations it might be an option
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Coincidently, I started this thread about 3 years ago and this is the VERY thing I will be working on this week. (Strange the thread took a hit at this time ;)). I have reviewed all of these ideas in my mind but hadn't read this thread since 2014 so I wen through it again, hoping something new will pop out. Still likening John's Angle best at this time. Perhaps this "Corvette" idea as a filler could prevent any breaking of the repaired areas from future lifting. I could consider this once I dolly out the damage.
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Coincidently, I started this thread about 3 years ago and this is the VERY thing I will be working on this week. (Strange the thread took a hit at this time ;)). I have reviewed all of these ideas in my mind but hadn't read this thread since 2014 so I wen through it again, hoping something new will pop out. ...
If you choose to remove this (I would likely leave it but understand its not pretty) allot have found it easiest to open the top of the floor over the frame rail, heat and fix the dent then close up the floor after all is better
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Think the challenge is that so close to the edge of the dolly hole any filler would be easy to pick out since the edge of the hole would be inconsistent.
Just a thought. In other locations it might be an option
+1 . A up to a 1/4 thick edge around a dolly hole would stand out like a sore thumb to anyone familiar with the thickness of sheetmetal for frame rails IMO.
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If you choose to remove this (I would likely leave it but understand its not pretty) allot have found it easiest to open the top of the floor over the frame rail, heat and fix the dent then close up the floor after all is better
This is what I did. I welded close the flap and afterwards fiberglass mesh & resin over the slightly rusted right hand floor area to fill over some rust-through holes that revealed themselves after media blasting (only the INSIDE of the car was media blasted, the underside I left alone). The driver's side wasn't anywhere near as rusty so I simply coated the floor with resin to fill a few very tiny pin holes and smooth over the welded area and minor rust pitting. The underside of the passenger floor required some body filler to get things right. It all looks pretty good in primer right now so soon the underside will be painted the original salmon color.
As I get the underside of the car painted (maybe this weekend, if I do not get derailed again by 'life'), I should be able to share some images I took a few months back now and the results (if I like how things turned out ;) )
I'll try & update these two threads anyways of my floor repairs.
Link to another thread with more floorpan shots and frame rail shots included: http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=9184.new#new