Author Topic: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations  (Read 965 times)

Offline 67gtasanjose

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2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« on: April 22, 2017, 07:46:20 AM »
Having read through many articles and threads, I am still a little confused if there are any previous posts within this forum to ID the variations of this 67-70 master cylinders.

Please guide me if there are (move topic also if need be)

So, we should find these cylinders to have a stop bolt on the bottom, a bendix logo, a Julian date code, the casting number 2227161 in the bottom, the "bump" on the front side of the rear brake outlet port, different caps depending on the year and production month and I am sure other details I failed to mention.

QUESTIONS:
1.) What years used the hex bolt and when (time period approximately) did these hex bolts change over to the Allen bolt?
2.) Does anyone have pictures of original Hex & Allen Bolts?
3.) Where the fittings come out of the housing, are these originally machined surfaces or are some simply "cast" (porous) ?
4.) Bail wire, though painted as an assembly while mounted to the booster, what finish should be on the wire before it is painted?
5.) Numbers stamped into the sides of the cylinders, is there a "code" known on what they are?

Maybe more questions related to this topic will come out, but I felt like I needed to be "schooled" on spotting the "CORRECT" cylinders at a glance. (And likewise an incorrect one "at a glance")

Attached below are a couple pictures of the fitting side & bottom side of a NOS unit, but who knows how "correct" it really is  ::)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 07:57:18 AM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2017, 12:42:43 PM »
Having read through many articles and threads, I am still a little confused if there are any previous posts within this forum to ID the variations of this 67-70 master cylinders.

Please guide me if there are (move topic also if need be)

So, we should find these cylinders to have a stop bolt on the bottom, a bendix logo, a Julian date code, the casting number 2227161 in the bottom, the "bump" on the front side of the rear brake outlet port, different caps depending on the year and production month and I am sure other details I failed to mention.

QUESTIONS:
1.) What years used the hex bolt and when (time period approximately) did these hex bolts change over to the Allen bolt?
2.) Does anyone have pictures of original Hex & Allen Bolts?
3.) Where the fittings come out of the housing, are these originally machined surfaces or are some simply "cast" (porous) ?
4.) Bail wire, though painted as an assembly while mounted to the booster, what finish should be on the wire before it is painted?
5.) Numbers stamped into the sides of the cylinders, is there a "code" known on what they are?

Maybe more questions related to this topic will come out, but I felt like I needed to be "schooled" on spotting the "CORRECT" cylinders at a glance. (And likewise an incorrect one "at a glance")

Attached below are a couple pictures of the fitting side & bottom side of a NOS unit, but who knows how "correct" it really is  ::)
The hex bolt was used from 67-possibly to early 68 and the cone shaped allen stop bolt one after that is my current understanding from observations. The fitting surfaces are machined from what I have seen. They had rubber plugs installed in the fitting opening before painting each of a different size. The plugs were not the same size as the flat machined surface so after painting the removed plug would leave a black witness line one of about the size of a dime and the other a nickel . 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 12:29:27 AM by Bob Gaines »
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2017, 01:32:59 PM »
Thanks for that information Bob.
Looking through another thread, I found this image of "variations" (Marcus posted it)

I would think there may be a general understood trend of "known original examples" where some of these subtle differences may possibly be better understood.
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2017, 07:29:44 PM »
............The bail wire was added after painting evidence indicates to me.

As a note - Bob and I are discussing this point since it's different from prior statements and our different experiences and recall.

Will post just this one link to Jacks site with a reported 7k mile original master cylinder. Not much black remains on the main body but the cap and retaining wire still retain a fair amount of paint

http://www.deadnutson.com/page/page/2634063.htm




Richard will take a look to see what points I can help with. The bottom side of original master cylinders (especially while still in the car) isn't an easy and often taken picture :)
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2017, 09:19:28 PM »
As a note - Bob and I are discussing this point since it's different from prior statements and our different experiences and recall.

Will post just this one link to Jacks site with a reported 7k mile original master cylinder. Not much black remains on the main body but the cap and retaining wire still retain a fair amount of paint

http://www.deadnutson.com/page/page/2634063.htm


I am still in agreement on the Bendix Booster/Master assembly. I am skeptical about the Midland Booster/Bendx Master assembly being exactly the same all of the time. I am continuing research and discussion with Jeff S on the subject. 
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline 67gta289

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2017, 11:02:53 AM »
This one quieted down a bit.  I was doing some clean up and documentation on four master cylinders I have, and aside from the 2227161 marking on the bottom, I did in each case find markings on the driver's (hydraulic port) side.

Hopefully this helps.

I did not look for the "dimple" noted in Jack's web site, will do that later and report back.
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
MCA 74660

Offline Mike_B_SVT

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2018, 03:48:23 PM »
Bringing this topic back as I am currently shopping for a correct Master Cylinder.  PLEASE correct me where I am in error on this...

Correct / Assembly Line Master Cylinder ID:
On the bottom will be a stop bolt (hex bolt or button-head Allen bolt, depending on year), a bendix logo, a Julian date code, the casting number 2227161. 
There will be a small "bump" on the upper front side above the rear brake outlet port.
Should there also be numbers stamped into the driver's side of the bowls above the brake line ports?

Q&A:
1.) What years used the hex bolt vs button-head bolt and when did these change over?
- Currently believe that the hex bolt was used through 1967 and possibly to early 1968 before changing to the coarse thread button-head Allen stop bolt, which was used until around 1972.  After 1972 they used a slightly different button-head bolt, which had a slightly smaller head and fine threads (per DNO page).
- If you have a rebuilt unit the original stop bolts may have been removed or changed during the rebuild process. 
- Button-head bolts are available from Dead Nuts On in fine and course thread.

2.) Does anyone have pictures of original Hex & Allen Bolts?
- Yes, see the end of this post for examples.

3.) Where the fittings come out of the housing, are these originally machined surfaces or are some simply "cast" (porous) ?
- The fitting surfaces are machined. 
- Then they had rubber plugs (each of a different size) installed in the opening before painting. The plugs were not the same size as the flat machined surface so after painting the removed plug would leave an unpainted circle about the size of a dime around one fitting and nickel-sized for the other fitting (per Bob Gaines' post).

4.) Bail wire, though painted as an assembly while mounted to the booster, what finish should be on the wire before it is painted?
- The bail wire was phosphate & oil(?) before being painted black with the rest of the assembly

5.) Numbers stamped into the sides of the cylinders, is there a "code" known on what they are?
- Good question!  Possibly assembler and / or inspector stamps, some sort of build spec codes, application codes, and / or assembly dates?
- Are these stampings only found on original units?  I have what I believe to be a later (or possibly rebuilt) Bendix that has no number stamps on the side and no stop bolt installed, but has all the other hallmarks.


Example Pics;
Mike B.

2003 Mustang Cobra Convertible
1 of 354 in Sonic Blue

1970 Cougar Eliminator (Competition Gold / Black Decor Interior), 428SCJ, Ram-Air, 4-speed w/ Hurst shifter
Built: Dearborn, Oct 6th, 1969
Cat Bites Man!

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2018, 10:18:58 PM »
Yes on the "small" hex head stop bolt used in 67 and early 68. There is also a large hex head that was used on later production (I have one on a B9 master). The numbers metal stamped into the side was a later phenomenon IMO. I don't believe it was used in 67 and early 68 for instance.   
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline Mike_B_SVT

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2018, 04:09:19 AM »
The numbers metal stamped into the side was a later phenomenon IMO. I don't believe it was used in 67 and early 68 for instance.

Do you think they were there on the '69 / '70 cars?

Or are they maybe something added by rebuilders?  I've seen two "NOS" master cylinders with the side stamps, but that doesn't mean they weren't Ford rebuilds maybe.
Mike B.

2003 Mustang Cobra Convertible
1 of 354 in Sonic Blue

1970 Cougar Eliminator (Competition Gold / Black Decor Interior), 428SCJ, Ram-Air, 4-speed w/ Hurst shifter
Built: Dearborn, Oct 6th, 1969
Cat Bites Man!

Offline azscj

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2018, 11:11:26 AM »
The numbers stamped on the side of the master cylinder indicate the assembly date.  This will always be different than the casting date on the bottom.
Marcus Anghel
MCA National Gold Card Judge, 69-71 Mustang
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Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2018, 12:48:36 PM »
Do you think they were there on the '69 / '70 cars?

Or are they maybe something added by rebuilders?  I've seen two "NOS" master cylinders with the side stamps, but that doesn't mean they weren't Ford rebuilds maybe.
Keep in mind that NOS masters typically through attrition end up being later mfg service parts
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2018, 12:53:13 PM »
The numbers stamped on the side of the master cylinder indicate the assembly date.  This will always be different than the casting date on the bottom.
Marcus,my first thought has been that the metal stamped numbers indicated some kind of assembly date given the one on the bottom was a casting date. Have you figured out how to decipher the metal stamps. If so what is the metal stamped date code sequence? I have yet to figure out how to decipher the metal stamped date code on the ones I have.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline Mike_B_SVT

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2018, 01:48:11 PM »
The numbers stamped on the side of the master cylinder indicate the assembly date.  This will always be different than the casting date on the bottom.

Any idea why we see some with and some without the side stamps?  Is there a certain time-frame when they were stamped vs not stamped?
Were assembly line units side stamped?

As I mentioned, I have one without side stamps, so I'm trying to figure out if this would be a "correct" replacement or if I need to keep looking.

Thanks fellahs!
Mike B.

2003 Mustang Cobra Convertible
1 of 354 in Sonic Blue

1970 Cougar Eliminator (Competition Gold / Black Decor Interior), 428SCJ, Ram-Air, 4-speed w/ Hurst shifter
Built: Dearborn, Oct 6th, 1969
Cat Bites Man!

Offline 196667Bob

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2018, 03:27:58 PM »
Before this gets any deeper (and I should have caught this when this thread was originally started), the Master Cylinder Casting Number that Richard is talking about, is for 1967 with Power Disc Brakes (Manual Drum and Power Drum Brakes for 1967 both used a Master Cylinder with Casting Number 2227061, with different internal parts).
One must also be careful in obtaining this Casting Number Master Cylinder (2227161), making sure that it came from a 1967-72 Mustang with Power Disc Brakes. I say this because this Casting was used in 4 different applications ; 1967-72 Mustangs, 1967 Ford Trucks, 1967-71 Chevy/GMC Trucks, and 1967-70 Dodges and Plymouths. All 4 applications each used a different Master Cylinder ; thus, not only could the internals of each be different, but also the mountings, size of the threaded ports for the lines, seats, etc.
I had a similar situation occur when I went to rebuild the 2227061 casting for the Power Drum Brake Booster I am adding to my '67. I had picked up a Master Cylinder with Casting Number 2227061 from one of our CMF members. I then found an original NOS C7ZZ-2004-A Rebuild Kit for 1967 Power Drum Brake Master Cylinders. I found that not only were the pistons different, but the ports (holes) in the seats were different. Luckily, for my 2227061 casting, only 2 applications are shown ; 1967-72 Ford, Merc and Mustangs with Manual Drum Brakes, and 1967-73 Ford, Merc and Mustangs with Power Drum Brakes. Nonetheless, I found that the ports on the Master Cylinder that I had obtained were 0.089" diameter, and the ones in the Kit were 0.116" diameter. While 0.027" inches difference doesn't seem like a lot, since pressure is inversely proportional to area, this can be a difference of more than double the amount of pressure that is put on the wheel cylinders. As I have heard many people saying before that they never replace the seats when rebuilding a Master Cylinder because they "look good", I thought that I should mention this. The one thing that I don't know about this though (since I noted that I purchased the Master Cylinder "loose") is did the casting I purchased come from a Manual Brake car, or did Ford make a change in the seats used in the Rebuild Kit ? Since my Master Cylinder for my Manual Drum Brakes had been replaced years ago with a Wagner Master Cylinder, I can't compare the Bendix one to it. Possibly someone has an original Bendix Manual Drum Brake Master Cylinder that hasn't been rebuilt, that they could check ?

Just thought that I should add this "word to the wise".

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: 2227161 Master Cylinder Variations
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2018, 03:55:02 PM »
Any idea why we see some with and some without the side stamps?  Is there a certain time-frame when they were stamped vs not stamped?
Were assembly line units side stamped?

As I mentioned, I have one without side stamps, so I'm trying to figure out if this would be a "correct" replacement or if I need to keep looking.

Thanks fellahs!
As I said before the metal stamping on the sides was a later phenomena. I don't have enough information to be confident to say how much later it was. Given the fact that the masters were painted along with the booster as a unit and that the typically light metal stamps could easily be covered by paint and you might not be able to be see the metal stampings on some regardless of if they were supposed to be there or not.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby