Author Topic: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips  (Read 8907 times)

Offline Daven

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2018, 11:32:06 PM »
I thought the complete car went through a submersion tank of primer like the old videos showed or were they just water washing tanks?

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Offline CharlesTurner

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2018, 11:50:31 PM »
I thought the complete car went through a submersion tank of primer like the old videos showed or were they just water washing tanks?

Not Mustangs.  Have heard some of the 'higher' end cars went through that type of process, like T-birds.
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Offline Daven

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2018, 12:03:33 AM »
Oh, that explains why the cars I saw were full bodied.  Are the old mustangs considered the highest valued, or high end cars now?

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Offline CharlesTurner

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2018, 12:18:29 AM »
Oh, that explains why the cars I saw were full bodied.  Are the old mustangs considered the highest valued, or high end cars now?

Most likely, depending on the model/options.
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Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2018, 02:43:34 PM »
Not Mustangs.  Have heard some of the 'higher' end cars went through that type of process, like T-birds.

+1   Mustangs were treated much like Falcons that they were based on (unibody design)
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Offline Bossbill

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2018, 06:27:58 PM »
It's too cold to go to the shop today. Without drowning you guys in a bunch of detail ...

The May 1964 New Scientist explains that "the end of 1961 saw Dearborn using electro-coat painting for motor car wheels, with 4-5 million wheels painted by May of '64."

Before 1963 [exact date not mentioned] Ford was using "slipper dip" for primering the lower half of car bodies  for Lincoln and Thunderbird.
In October 1963 Ford's Halewood factory starting electro-coating these two car lines using 70,000 gallon vats of primer.

Cost and the availability of these vats in the many Mustang factories may have precluded their use.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 07:30:02 PM by Bossbill »
Bill
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Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2018, 06:33:06 PM »
Not sure if the earlier reports apply during the periods when Mustangs were produced. For examples the complete bodies of the other cars were dipped not just part of the bodies

Cost and the availability of these vats in the many Mustang factories may have precluded their use.

At least at most of the plants were Mustangs were produced the vats were in use on other lines within the same factory. Though I do agree that it was a cost saving item for these cheaper built cars to keep the prices down and the cars affordable/price competitive.
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Offline bullitt68

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2019, 01:19:34 AM »
NOTE: The following six posted were split and moved from another thread in an effort to keep related discussions, findings and help all together for others to find and consider

Finally had good enough weather to "do" my paint drips.

You be the judge ...





Great work Bill how did you emulate the paint drips
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 12:18:58 AM by J_Speegle »
Mike
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Offline Bossbill

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2019, 02:03:22 PM »
Get ready to experiment!

I tried painting some spare floor panels in order to get the drips. I had some success but if you get the formula just a little wrong you end with a mess that requires a lot of sanding, more primering and a possible loss of detail. So I decided to create the drips by hand and where I wanted them. See the Virginia Mustang Blog for their paint results.

I started with a product Jeff recommended for wheel well and other sealer use, called Spectrum. Check the library as Jeff has an article on that use.
It's sold by Second Skin Audio for use as a sound deadener. The Spectrum product is sold as a spray on product called either "Spray on Deadener".
"Sludge" is the same thing as the "Spray on Deadener", but includes a bottle of a thickener. You want Sludge.
The thickener just raises the viscosity from a light pancake batter to cold butter or anywhere in between by adding more or less of the thickener. The thickener does not reduce dry time so it is not a catalyst. It's more like adding flour to a recipe.
Check pictures of SJ car bottoms (like Richard's) to get a sense of the pattern of drips. Print out the pics of sections you want to emulate.

The factory drips are a result of the body being moved over a row of paint jets, pointed up, as the body moves over them. The application is heavy enough to cause drips. The body immediately moves over a bank of heating elements. I'll leave the type of heating elements out of this discussion.
The heating of the still dripping paint caused some small drips to instantly harden. Some drips were larger and stayed intact that way. Others exploded due to "solvent popping" and looked like a post eruption volcano. Some exploded so much they ended up looking like moon craters with just a ring left over.
 
Basically there are three drip types. Small dot drips, large drips and exploding drips.
A fourth drip is not really a drip but a crater.

To prepare, experiment with the spectrum and a few drops of thickener. Use either a hypodermic without the needle or a pet medicine hypo. The later is used to feet cats and dogs specific amounts of medicine and has hole on the end well suited to this task.
I use one hypo for adding thickener and another to dispense the sludge.

Using a rotisserie, flip the car upside down.

Small drips are just that. Experiment with viscosity in a small container and just lightly apply to a rib with the hypo. Since this stuff is water soluble you can quickly remove it. I used a spare floor section for the experimentation phase.
Larger drips are usually just more thickener and more product.
Exploding drips require a timer. Make a large drip, let it dry some amount of time, poke the middle and let it sit. It should look "exploded".

The craters are done using a circular item like a ball point pen middle section (where they are screwed together) or a hole punch. Dip the open end into the sludge and apply to the floor. This might either be straight down or using a rocking motion.

Some drips make take more than one application.

After you have enough drips I take the base of each drip apply a little 2k primer to where the drip attaches to the floor so as to smooth out the transition.

Finally I apply as many coats of 2k primer to the floor to even it all out.

This requires a lot of experimentation to get the results you find satisfactory. If don't have a lot of patience this may not be for you.

As a final note, sludge can be mixed and placed into plastic baker's bags for the rear trunk areas that used to have the tar-type sealers. You can use tools on sludge to move it around or to create patterns like stacked dimes.

Included are pics of various experiments and final application (yellow glove).

Bill
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Driven      6/6/70 0T02G160xxx Boss 302
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Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2019, 10:18:39 PM »
Almost responded to bullitt68's request (answered for you) but choose to let you do it and glad I did. :)

Really nice explanation
and write up.
Jeff Speegle

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Offline bullitt68

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2019, 03:24:48 AM »
Get ready to experiment!

I tried painting some spare floor panels in order to get the drips. I had some success but if you get the formula just a little wrong you end with a mess that requires a lot of sanding, more primering and a possible loss of detail. So I decided to create the drips by hand and where I wanted them. See the Virginia Mustang Blog for their paint results.

I started with a product Jeff recommended for wheel well and other sealer use, called Spectrum. Check the library as Jeff has an article on that use.
It's sold by Second Skin Audio for use as a sound deadener. The Spectrum product is sold as a spray on product called either "Spray on Deadener".
"Sludge" is the same thing as the "Spray on Deadener", but includes a bottle of a thickener. You want Sludge.
The thickener just raises the viscosity from a light pancake batter to cold butter or anywhere in between by adding more or less of the thickener. The thickener does not reduce dry time so it is not a catalyst. It's more like adding flour to a recipe.
Check pictures of SJ car bottoms (like Richard's) to get a sense of the pattern of drips. Print out the pics of sections you want to emulate.

The factory drips are a result of the body being moved over a row of paint jets, pointed up, as the body moves over them. The application is heavy enough to cause drips. The body immediately moves over a bank of heating elements. I'll leave the type of heating elements out of this discussion.
The heating of the still dripping paint caused some small drips to instantly harden. Some drips were larger and stayed intact that way. Others exploded due to "solvent popping" and looked like a post eruption volcano. Some exploded so much they ended up looking like moon craters with just a ring left over.
 
Basically there are three drip types. Small dot drips, large drips and exploding drips.
A fourth drip is not really a drip but a crater.

To prepare, experiment with the spectrum and a few drops of thickener. Use either a hypodermic without the needle or a pet medicine hypo. The later is used to feet cats and dogs specific amounts of medicine and has hole on the end well suited to this task.
I use one hypo for adding thickener and another to dispense the sludge.

Using a rotisserie, flip the car upside down.

Small drips are just that. Experiment with viscosity in a small container and just lightly apply to a rib with the hypo. Since this stuff is water soluble you can quickly remove it. I used a spare floor section for the experimentation phase.
Larger drips are usually just more thickener and more product.
Exploding drips require a timer. Make a large drip, let it dry some amount of time, poke the middle and let it sit. It should look "exploded".

The craters are done using a circular item like a ball point pen middle section (where they are screwed together) or a hole punch. Dip the open end into the sludge and apply to the floor. This might either be straight down or using a rocking motion.

Some drips make take more than one application.

After you have enough drips I take the base of each drip apply a little 2k primer to where the drip attaches to the floor so as to smooth out the transition.

Finally I apply as many coats of 2k primer to the floor to even it all out.

This requires a lot of experimentation to get the results you find satisfactory. If don't have a lot of patience this may not be for you.

As a final note, sludge can be mixed and placed into plastic baker's bags for the rear trunk areas that used to have the tar-type sealers. You can use tools on sludge to move it around or to create patterns like stacked dimes.

Included are pics of various experiments and final application (yellow glove).

Thanks Bill all of then information you and others are providing is invaluable. Now I just need to try my best to see if I can do the instructions justice. I was going to leave the paint drips on my car as a lot of them remained after media blasting but decided to remove them before painting as the caps of the drips were removed and the remaining creaters would just not have looked right. Looking forward to experimenting with your procedures. I am going to start updating my build thread as I go and post the results if they turn out well.

Here is what my drips looked like after blasting and a photo of the drips before blasting and then a photo of the car painted with no drips. It is amazing how the some of the drips were really bonded to the metal and did not come off with the media blasting. Fortunately I have great photos of all of the drips on the bottom of my car. I have not seen may photos of other cars, but the drips do seem tone minimal on my car and will try to reproduces them as best I can. The down side is that I never put my car on a rotisserie and did all of the work so far on just a body cart. Do yo think that this process/procedure can work on the c art or just be harder as it will be done in a tight space under the car. I am not kicking myself for not putting the car on a rotisserie
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 03:49:14 AM by bullitt68 »
Mike
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Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2019, 03:03:08 PM »
............... Do yo think that this process/procedure can work on the c art or just be harder as it will be done in a tight space under the car. I am not kicking myself for not putting the car on a rotisserie

Of course you can do it. Many have done it before. Just not as easy and for this task (where the floor needs to just sit as is usually does for the drips and epoxy top coat) a rotisserie isn't needed since you don't need to rotate the car. It just helps elevate the body for this task.  If you have a cart that lifts the body higher than a long set of jack stands your ahead of many builders. 

Some use a lift (supporting the body from the four center dolly locations) instead but many of us don't have access to that either for painting.
Jeff Speegle

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Offline bullitt68

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2019, 03:13:02 PM »
Of course you can do it. Many have done it before. Just not as easy and for this task (where the floor needs to just sit as is usually does for the drips and epoxy top coat) a rotisserie isn't needed since you don't need to rotate the car. It just helps elevate the body for this task.  If you have a cart that lifts the body higher than a long set of jack stands your ahead of many builders. 

Some use a lift (supporting the body from the four center dolly locations) instead but many of us don't have access to that either for painting.

Thanks Jeff my car is currently on this cart. I was hoping that I could just apply the paint drips and not have to repay the bottom of the car, but not sure that that is an option. Unfortunately it appears I am doing some things out of sequence which is in turn causing the project to take longer and also causing some redo's!
Mike
1968 Mustang Fastback GT 390 Raven Black, 4 speed
8R02S162374, San Jose, June 5, 1968

Offline bryancobb

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2020, 07:53:02 AM »
I have posted these before but bringing them up again may help someone.  My car was a Metuchen build from MAR 66.  These are pictures are as it left the factory.  Notice the drips DO NOT only appear on the lowest valleys.  Wet paint cannot run horizontally.  Drips formed on the large flat areas too.
If you only create drips at the valleys of the formed ribs, it does not look "natural" at all.  They were all over the belly.

Sort-of appropriate for this thread and probably appropriate to start another too are the three pictures runs, runs2, and runs3.  This is the transition at the engine bay paint and transmission tunnel.  These pictures show some data about how drips and pops may have developed on the belly.  Clues to the drying methods are evident. 

Keep in mind, this only applies to MY CAR.  What I describe below may have been an "other than normal" thing that was done to my car because of some problem or skipped process or malfunctioning equipment.  I lean more toward it being the NORMAL way things were done but Jeff and others have information that I don't have and they have much more knowledge than I do.  What I do know with certainty is, the paint in these three pictures is original and factory applied.  The black runs and sags are NOT caused during an after-production engine bay "freshen up."

I have discussed these pics with Jeff before and I think he disagrees with me, but  I have years of experience in "root-cause" investigations in aerospace manufacturing, especially paint-related and I grew up in my Dad's body shop and am pretty good at paint analysis.  I am absolutely certain that the red oxide and the black engine bay paint in these three pictures were the factory-applied coatings, in this transition area.

What makes me so certain is...the way wet black paint ran onto and INTO the red oxide paint.  The only way this effect could have occurred is if the black was sprayed immediately after the red oxide.  The thick coats of red oxide could NOT have formed a flash-coat-skin yet and the black mixed with the primer and the two wet coatings sagged in unison making streaks as they got more dry.

Another clue is indicated by the 90 degree change in direction of the runs.  The long skinny runs are in an area where the red oxide is not nearly as thick of a buildup and has obviously formed a semi-dry skin.  The skinny black runs are on that skin surface and gravity is in control.  Then it appears the black runs encounter a strong enough forced-air stream that they sharply make a turn.  This turn is not due to surface contour change because a "corner" that sharp does not coincide with the turn.  A significant stream of drying blower air would have caused the direction change.

Maybe these pic's are a tiny piece of the puzzle.  Who knows?
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Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Creating faux undercarriage paint drips
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2020, 03:14:32 PM »
Think the black and red primer sealer issues is likely a different subject than the focus of this thread (undercarriage drips) Just my opinion and also we need to reflect on the fact that Bryan's car is a 66 NJ car so we can't take its findings an apply them across the board.  IF we have some more 66 NJ examples lets look at those and keep that focus in a new thread. Not  certain that we did that when these were offered last time.
Jeff Speegle

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