Author Topic: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?  (Read 1077 times)

Offline mungus

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POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« on: July 21, 2017, 07:21:52 AM »
Hello! At the risk or being told to look elsewhere, I will wade into the much discussed "what is the correct color for my engine?".

Of course I've read a few threads on engine colors here. Very good stuff. However its a little more complicated down here in Australia as we don't have access to products like Plastikote 224 and even the USA PPG codes don't always translate into the local stock well. Likewise the Duplicolor DE 1621 is hard to find here too (although the brand itself does exist in OZ). My reading so far, has convinced me that my 68' does not use the darker 69' onwards paint, nor the very light blue seen on some early 60's ford engines. True? Please correct me if not the case.

So anyway I bought 3 shades of locally available VHT Ford engine paint (Ford COMP Blue, OLD Ford blue and NEW Ford blue), and tested them on some sheet metal, then compared them to some aged original looking paint remnants on my block AND a spare 68' block I had lying around. The closest of these by far, was "OLD FORD BLUE" (VHT code SP153). I noted that that name has been applied to a couple of other manufacturers offerings, including the often suggested Plastikote 224 and Duplicolor 1621 . The VHT Old Ford Blue (SP153) looks very close to the Duplicolor 1621 in one attachment I posted here. Which gave me some hope that its OK.

Unfortunately I find my iPhone camera's photos only shows up poorly on the web, so not a lot of use posting them up. However I have attached 2 head photos using VHT OLD FORD BLUE, and the POR chart.

Anyway after all that I was then told they were ALL wrong, you need the POR15 engine paint "Ford Corporate Blue". Great.  :-)
So with some hassle and expense I bought some and sprayed my water pump, timing cover and thermostat housing. The paint itself leaves a lovely finish, (albeit its not as forgiving as VHT rattle cans), but I cant help thinking its just too dark! To complicate matters a new Scott Drake 67' air cleaner I have on the shelf is another color again! And I understand the 67' & 68' engines are the same colour? Is Scott Drake right with their colour? (I mean to say, they aren't exactly known for always being dead nuts on). Its a different shade from any of the colors I've seen touted as being correct. As an aside, should the air cleaner base and its engine be the same shade of blue? Always seems to be that way when I see other 68' cars.

So has anyone here tried that POR15 paint? Opinions? Based on the web photos of parts painted with DE1621 I can't help thinking the VHT Old Ford Blue is pretty close for my March 68' S code's engine.

I've also  noted a few photos of finished 67 / 68 S code engine bays like the one attached, that seem pretty close to the Old Ford Blue...
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 08:41:34 AM by mungus »
March 14th 1968 - Metuchen S code Fastback
C6 auto, LS 3.25 diff, Gulfstream Aqua, Black Vinyl, Headrests, Console, GT group, PS, PB, AM/FM stereo, F70 tires, tinted glass, louvered hood.

Offline caspian65

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2017, 10:11:38 AM »
The 'Old Ford Blue' formula must have changed, it used to be a lot lighter.

PPG DAR 13358 is the correct paint code, but even that could have some variance.  Although, paint application at the engine plant was quick and usually light, which translates to different appearance of the paint.

NPD sells a matched version of 13358 in a spray can that is an engine enamel.  I know it's not catalyzed, but it's a good substitute for those that may not have spray gun equipment or facilities.
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
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Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2017, 01:48:24 PM »
I had a restorer friend use POR 15 corporate blue paint on a engine for a client. I was speechless when I saw how off the color /shade were on his freshly installed 428CJ engine. I didn't know what to say . Rather then listen to me prior to that about the POR ,he felt compelled to take the word of the POR rep on how exact it was over my opinion.  The restorer is a thinks he is superior ,Engineer degree, re invents the wheel etc. you know the type.  Of course it took deductions at a concours event before he believed me. Long story short he had no idea what he didn't know (I saw the disdain for me every time i pointed  things out which he requested) and eventually freaked out with how many issues to fix and left the client high and dry. Client took it to another shop which I had previously suggested (he thought they were too high before) and had the engine removed stripped and repainted with the ppg . All is right with the world. :D   
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline jwc66k

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2017, 04:36:52 PM »
- (this) - restorer is a thinks he is superior ,Engineer degree, re invents the wheel etc. you know the type.
Some of us engineering "types" take offence to your comment. My name is on several patents, not wheels - but as important (think communications satellite) as co-inventor. I'm that type. There are others on this forum that fit that profile.
Jim
I promise to be politically correct in all my posts to keep the BBBB from vociferating.

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2017, 05:26:07 PM »
Some of us engineering "types" take offence to your comment. My name is on several patents, not wheels - but as important (think communications satellite) as co-inventor. I'm that type. There are others on this forum that fit that profile.
Jim
Jim ,no offense meant to you. Let me clarify,not meant to apply to all but just the small percentage that make up that closed minded ,better and smarter then everyone else stereotype of those that are.  Some doctors (small percentage) fit that profile too. Just trying to paint the picture of the closed minded superior mindset of the person I am referring to for the purpose of the post.   
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 05:30:47 PM by Bob Gaines »
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2017, 07:30:04 PM »
So has anyone here tried that POR15 paint? Opinions? .................

Have not tried it for any of my projects - found what worked for me so no reason to consider the product. Have seen it on others and was not impressed.

Remember you can't compare pictures to tell what the colors and shine look like. Way too many variables when we look at posted or published pictures, digital cameras, settings and so forth.  Spray samples and comparing them to original painted parts from the same year and engine plant is the only way to get close IMHO. Yers I understand this can be difficult for some. Just one reason the forums were created so we can share our individual findings, experiments and trials
Jeff Speegle

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Offline mungus

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2017, 07:43:01 PM »
Thanks Bob, at least I know POR15 isn't the right color, that's something. I'll stop using it.

On the other side of the discussion, how about the color my heads are painted? As Jeff's post rightly points out, it's hard to tell from a web photo, but does it look ball part at least?

Lastly should the air cleaner base be the same shade as the engine?

Thanks to all.

BTW I'm also one of those guys with a degree! 2 in fact, (makes me twice as silly). :-)
However im the first to say I met some of the stupidest people ever at University!
I like to use the Duke of Wellington's quote when people tell me someone who graduated uni must be smart:
"Being born in a barn doesn't make one a horse".
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 07:48:27 PM by mungus »
March 14th 1968 - Metuchen S code Fastback
C6 auto, LS 3.25 diff, Gulfstream Aqua, Black Vinyl, Headrests, Console, GT group, PS, PB, AM/FM stereo, F70 tires, tinted glass, louvered hood.

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2017, 09:15:14 PM »
Lastly should the air cleaner base be the same shade as the engine?

We don't know (that I'm aware of) for sure where the air cleaner was painted. But from observations they typically are an incredible IMHO close match (lid, snorkel and so on) to the engine possibly suggesting they were painted at the engine plant.
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline mungus

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2017, 09:58:34 PM »
Thanks Jeff, that's what I figured.
Am I right in saying 67-68' cars used this kind of shade though?
(Old ford blue / plasticote 224 etc)
March 14th 1968 - Metuchen S code Fastback
C6 auto, LS 3.25 diff, Gulfstream Aqua, Black Vinyl, Headrests, Console, GT group, PS, PB, AM/FM stereo, F70 tires, tinted glass, louvered hood.

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2017, 10:37:23 PM »
Thanks Jeff, that's what I figured.
Am I right in saying 67-68' cars used this kind of shade though?
(Old ford blue / plasticote 224 etc)

What sized engines? 

Why ask?  Its just me - I've noticed that for me the FE engines were often slightly darker than the small blocks possibly since they were painted at different places a slightly different mix or supplier may have been the cause though the PPG color is still the base or accept standard.


For small blocks and 6 cylinders I always found that the Plasticote was the closest for me but haven't used rattle cans and years and their current product might be slightly different.  Sorry for all the wavering just want to be specific in my response ;)
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline mungus

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2017, 10:57:01 PM »
Nope that's totally fine, I would do the same.

The big thing for me is that its in the ballpark for 1968 390's. In other words that it isn't the later dark blue of the 70's or the light sky blue of the early years. Beyond that I'm not super fussy as it seems there was variation, as you point out.

However I get a little confused when I see a post like this; http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=14476.0
Which shows a 67 390GT motor with what appears to be a darker shade of blue than the typical "old ford blue" I am using, or 224, although not as dark as the 69' onwards cars. Even then when I edit those images (they were underexposed) the color becomes closer to mine...

However I would say that motor is closer to Rustoleum's 298946 "old ford blue" than either Plastikote 224, VHT "old ford blue" or Duplicolor's DE1621. Heres a swatch of the Rustoleum F Y I. I only ask as that poster requested advice on correctness from you guys and no one mentioned the color... ???

BTW I finally took and uploaded some comparisons between fresh VHT old ford blue (over VHT primer) and the POR15 corp blue items.
Pretty darn obvious...

So Jeff / Bob, can I ask, if you were me, which rattle can color would you choose for your own 68' FE motor?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 04:25:47 AM by mungus »
March 14th 1968 - Metuchen S code Fastback
C6 auto, LS 3.25 diff, Gulfstream Aqua, Black Vinyl, Headrests, Console, GT group, PS, PB, AM/FM stereo, F70 tires, tinted glass, louvered hood.

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2017, 04:55:49 PM »
BTW I finally took and uploaded some comparisons between fresh VHT old ford blue (over VHT primer) and the POR15 corp blue items.
Pretty darn obvious...

So Jeff / Bob, can I ask, if you were me, which rattle can color would you choose for your own 68' FE motor?

Give us and viewers a hint :) if you please

Which one (timing cover verses block color)  is which paint. No reason to guess but would guess that the block is the POR15
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2017, 07:34:34 PM »
Give us and viewers a hint :) if you please

Which one (timing cover verses block color)  is which paint. No reason to guess but would guess that the block is the POR15
Monitors make it difficult to make a determination. In person the shade may appear completely different.  Jeff convinced me of that years ago. This is a case in point. The POR product that I have seen is typically much darker and a different shade as well compared to most any of the rattle can paints or the PPG that I am used to using. I have not used the VHT product but have heard of others without issue. I cant comment on the VHT color equivalency . The engine paints don't typically have to have a primer used . If I had the engine out of the car I would use the PPG. If you are going to take a short cut (because the rattle can paint doesn't hold up as good) I will let others suggest a rattle can product.   
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2017, 05:17:24 PM »
So Jeff / Bob, can I ask, if you were me, which rattle can color would you choose for your own 68' FE motor?

If it were me the choice would be neither. Sorry I know that will not help but as mentioned the computer screen  will at best only provide (between the two) which one MIGHT be closer but that does not still mean its my choice. Have seen many paints where in the shade they look OK but if the car at the show is situated where the sun lights up the engine it can look purple or just off.  Your not comparing each of your choices to any originally paint part in the picture and this is an important decision and like body color, oversprays and such not something that is easy to undo once you have the car together and I'm sure that is why your trying to take the time and make a good choice.

Dupli-Color spray paints for Ford engines is one of the rattle cans I used 20 plus years ago that I found was close to what I was seeing on original big blocks from your time period. I have no recent experiences with their products so don't know if they changed them over time.

Sorry can't provide a thumbs up on either of your two choices given the parameters we have here
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline mungus

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Re: POR 15 FORD Corporate Blue engine paint - too dark?
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2017, 11:57:50 PM »
Give us and viewers a hint :) if you please
Which one (timing cover verses block color)  is which paint. No reason to guess but would guess that the block is the POR15

Sorry I guessed many readers would have used or seen the POR-15 Ford Corp Blue. My bad.
The Block is an older batch of VHT "Old Ford Blue" rattle can, over VHT engine primer, and the timing cover is the POR-15 Ford Corp Blue.
As you can see its nowhere near the 67/68' Ford colours, IMHO closer to the 69' onwards darker blues if anything.

I totally agree monitors and even digital cameras makes getting an appreciation of the actual color difficult.
Even within the same product things change a lot. I recently bought some new cans of the VHT "Old Ford Blue" color and when I compared them to the older batches they were (I'm pleased to say) a nicer shade of blue and much closer to the claimed "concours correct" engine bays I've seen from 67/68'. So now that the engine is almost complete I've masked and over-sprayed with the new VHT batch. The old and new VHT batch colors are maybe 1/2 a shade apart, but its noticeable.
The attached photo is the new batch paint. Once again iPhone camera and monitor's being what they are. Interestingly a friend who had the remnants of a Duplicolor Ford 1621 rattle can, sprayed some panel steel as a sample and brought it over. Held next to the block its seems to be close to being a match. I should have grabbed a side by side photo but that's old age I guess!

My original intention was to draw attention to how far off the POR-15 Corp Blue colour was, rather than ask for a thumbs up. But I'm please the comparison photo is at least out there for others to see. Its not cheap paint that POR-15, and its also a bit tricky to apply compared to VHT rattle cans, and its not as heat resistant either. In fact the only thing it was supposed to have going for it in my books was the color, but even that's off! I also don't like the uber lustre finish that seems to fill in casting grains with even lightly sprayed coats. Hardly a factory look in my view. But unless you've seen it how can a prospective purchaser ever know? Anyway blasted it all off and repainted with the VHT "Old Ford Blue" now, so lesson learned.

PS: Apologies for the drain cock in the block, just temporary until its verified as running OK etc, then the glycol and AMK plug will go in.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 01:35:26 AM by mungus »
March 14th 1968 - Metuchen S code Fastback
C6 auto, LS 3.25 diff, Gulfstream Aqua, Black Vinyl, Headrests, Console, GT group, PS, PB, AM/FM stereo, F70 tires, tinted glass, louvered hood.