ConcoursMustang Forums

Showing & Judging => MCA Judging => Topic started by: mmsnyr8120 on January 02, 2016, 06:00:14 PM

Title: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: mmsnyr8120 on January 02, 2016, 06:00:14 PM
Is it true that it is in Mustang Times?  We won't get our magazine for another week.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: carlite65 on January 02, 2016, 06:27:40 PM
haven't got my mag yet but it was discussed at the judges meeting.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: mikeljgt500kr on January 02, 2016, 07:02:42 PM
I got mine today and didn't see anything about that, but the mag is not well organized or indexed so I could have missed it.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: Richard P. on January 02, 2016, 08:13:37 PM
This information is in the Judges Corner section of the Mustang Times. ( CDT class discontinued) I know that their was some discussion about the class but didn't know that it was finalized. I'm disappointed to say the least.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: caspian65 on January 02, 2016, 08:20:47 PM
Heard that it was discussed, but surprised that the class was dropped.  From what I've seen, the class still had a good amount of entrants. 
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: Richard P. on January 02, 2016, 09:37:46 PM
Heard that it was discussed, but surprised that the class was dropped. 
  +1From what I've seen, the class still had a good amount of entrants. 

I think it's going to cause some people to stay home.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: mmsnyr8120 on January 02, 2016, 09:41:21 PM
Very bad decision.  If it was for newer cars, then maybe.  But the older cars and the older drivers have a harder time on the roads. 
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: ruppstang on January 02, 2016, 09:45:43 PM
I can confirm CDT is gone. It's not bad. All driven cars will be in Concours driven whether driven to the show or trailered. They will have to show real signs of being real driven cars at check in. In the past CDA, CDB, CDC.... and CDT were judged just the same and since the cars are judged against a standard and not head to head it will still be fair to put them in the same class. It will greatly simplify things in the tally room and for the assistant head judges. It was also a bit confusing at the awards ceremony for cars from several generations being given awards in the same class.
We would welcome you thoughts and comments on this change at mustang.org
Marty
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: caspian65 on January 02, 2016, 10:53:57 PM
It makes sense from the tally room perspective and judging  The reason we did not combine them back when the class was originally created is because the owner of a driven car would not want to be in the same class as a car that was trailered.  Maybe times have changed since then and owners are willing to accept it now.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: rockhouse66 on January 03, 2016, 09:31:41 AM
I would think that the consequence of this change will be that all of these cars will now be trailered to the shows.  Cleanliness is such a big part of the presentation that it will be hard to compete using a truly "driven" car.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: mikeljgt500kr on January 03, 2016, 10:23:26 AM
I would think that the consequence of this change will be that all of these cars will now be trailered to the shows.  Cleanliness is such a big part of the presentation that it will be hard to compete using a truly "driven" car.

+1, driven cars are on the way out, and that preoccupation with cleanliness is just silly, but I guess that is easy to judge objectively and a good crutch to use instead of looking at technical correctness.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: ruppstang on January 03, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
I agree that there are less of the first generation cars on the road but IMHO it is due to the cost of restoration and the value of the early cars.

I had a 68 fastback that I put 38 thousand miles on showing it in the concours driven class. I know very well the challenges of keeping it clean after driving 1500 miles to a show. I love to drive our cars and consider that the cost of doing business.

I have judged the driven class many times and often encounter a owner who thought the driven class was a excuse to not thoroughly clean their car. Cleanliness is a big part of a concours showing. The scoring standards are lower in the driven classed, giving them a break on some road acquired dirt. Trailered gold up to -21 Driven gold -35. As I said above there will need to be visible signs that the car is driven at Classification to enter the concours driven class. It is the MCA's goal to provide a fun and fair environment in which to show your car. 

(but I guess that is easy to judge objectively and a good crutch to use instead of looking at technical correctness)
Mike this is a bit of a insult to us here on the forum who give our time to judge these events.
Marty
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: mmsnyr8120 on January 03, 2016, 01:14:23 PM
So people won't have to cheat?  Trailer their cars 10 miles from the show and then drive them in?  These cars might be driven in their home town and look driven.  Check in is supposed to be able to tell? 
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: Richard P. on January 03, 2016, 01:40:09 PM
If the rule was made for class CDT, I to wonder why it wouldn't apply to classes ODL, ODM and ODN. I haven't heard anything about the latter three. ??????????
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: ruppstang on January 03, 2016, 02:14:47 PM
So people won't have to cheat?  Trailer their cars 10 miles from the show and then drive them in?  These cars might be driven in their home town and look driven.  Check in is supposed to be able to tell?
Yes the cheating was always a problem even when we had CDT. Now we do not care how the car gets to the show it just needs to show signs of being driven
 ( hint more miles on the odometer)
Matt I know you could tell whether a car is being driven or not.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: ruppstang on January 03, 2016, 02:18:54 PM
If the rule was made for class CDT, I to wonder why it wouldn't apply to classes ODL, ODM and ODN. I haven't heard anything about the latter three. ??????????

Richard it was discussed for the Occasionally Driven classes but was decided not to change them this year. If Concours change goes well look for them to change next year. 
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: mmsnyr8120 on January 03, 2016, 02:57:42 PM
ALL Concours Gold Card Judges should have been allowed to vote on this.  Not just a few people deciding.  Yes, Matt can tell the difference, but are you going to have him at classification?  Also, why do the judges have to hear about it in the magazine.  Couldn't the ANHJ contacted their Gold card judges?
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: ruppstang on January 03, 2016, 03:49:31 PM
I am only trying to help others understand what was done. I agree with some of your points but this is not the place to discuss MCA business. It would be best to contact the MCA head judges regarding your concerns.
Marty
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: mmsnyr8120 on January 03, 2016, 05:48:24 PM
People don't respond well to the MCA website.  Plus I would probably be edited. 
Unrestored, Thoroughbred, and Concours classes are supposed to be the cream of the crop.  Owners try to preserve a piece of history. 
When we started, we were in BS class, then bettered the car and went in BT class.  PS class came around and at first people were skeptical.  Then the classes were changed to meet software requirements. 
I am not the only person that is disappointed with the change. 
We have spent plenty of time and money just like other loyal MCA members and veteran judges.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: Richard P. on January 03, 2016, 06:23:25 PM
I am only trying to help others understand what was done. I agree with some of your points but this is not the place to discuss MCA business. It would be best to contact the MCA head judges regarding your concerns.
Marty
I seem to remember some lengthy discussion about this after the last MCA GN. Their were a number of members that voiced ours concerns about this matter. v
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: mikeljgt500kr on January 03, 2016, 06:53:07 PM
I

(but I guess that is easy to judge objectively and a good crutch to use instead of looking at technical correctness)
Mike this is a bit of a insult to us here on the forum who give our time to judge these events.
Marty

I didn't mean it as an insult, just pointing out things I have heard several times from judges who were not aware of all the correct technical standards and thus concentrated on cleanliness, can you say that never happens?  And I spend much time judging cars, but not at MCA, so I know the time and efforts it takes, but cleanliness is not something I search out and penalize for, since that organization does not focus on it.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: ruppstang on January 03, 2016, 09:55:23 PM
I didn't mean it as an insult, just pointing out things I have heard several times from judges who were not aware of all the correct technical standards and thus concentrated on cleanliness, can you say that never happens?  And I spend much time judging cars, but not at MCA, so I know the time and efforts it takes, but cleanliness is not something I search out and penalize for, since that organization does not focus on it.
I have only judged in the MCA. Cleanliness, Condition and Workmanship are a large percentage of the total points of a Concours sheet. Even a inexperienced judge should be guided by the information in the sheet. I'll attach a sample from a Concours sheet. Hope this helps you understand how it is done in the MCA. 
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: J_Speegle on January 03, 2016, 10:00:28 PM
Just as a historical point. The management of MCA Judging has oscillated back and forth through the years on how decisions  were made. Sometimes  there is allot of input and sometimes just a couple of people get a vote.  There have even been years where no open Annual Judges Meeting (Head Judge didn't want the hassle and figured we didn't need input) was held. One such meeting was held on a Mississippi river boat with about eight people in attendance. With other Head Judges input was much greater but in general it has had a fairly large range over the decades depending on the person(s) and the agenda.

In recent years little communication IMHO took place between the Heads and the Assistance's as to votes and opinions related to where MCA Judging was going. This was one of the main reasons I stepped down from my position of Assistant Head Judge that I had held on and off (a couple vacations in there) since the early 90's. Guess what I'm trying to say (again) is that in a volunteer organization, volunteers what to have at least the appearance of input and a hand in the direction the organization (or subgroup) is going.

Unfortunately IMHO (and stated publically a number of times) the MCA site, especially the Judges area, is under unitized and undermanned since its been open. Last post in the judging only area was July 28th of 2015 - Twelve threads in approximately five years.

A bit off thread but somewhat related to a side subject brought up. Wish it was better but many of us tried. Now back the regular subjects

Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: carlite65 on January 03, 2016, 10:44:54 PM
"In recent years little communication IMHO took place between the Heads and the Assistance's as to votes and opinions related to where MCA Judging was going."

i wholeheartedly second that assesment. leadership starts at the top.

"Unfortunately IMHO (and stated publically a number of times) the MCA site, especially the Judges area, is under unitized and undermanned since its been open."

i agree with this too.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: 67158 on January 03, 2016, 10:47:29 PM
Just as a historical point. The management of MCA Judging has oscillated back and forth through the years on how decisions  were made. Sometimes  there is allot of input and sometimes just a couple of people get a vote.  There have even been years where no open Annual Judges Meeting (Head Judge didn't want the hassle and figured we didn't need input) was held. One such meeting was held on a Mississippi river boat with about eight people in attendance. With other Head Judges input was much greater but in general it has had a fairly large range over the decades depending on the person(s) and the agenda.

In recent years little communication IMHO took place between the Heads and the Assistance's as to votes and opinions related to where MCA Judging was going. This was one of the main reasons I stepped down from my position of Assistant Head Judge that I had held on and off (a couple vacations in there) since the early 90's. Guess what I'm trying to say (again) is that in a volunteer organization, volunteers what to have at least the appearance of input and a hand in the direction the organization (or subgroup) is going.

The MCA gives prior notice to any and all judges of its annual meeting. Advanced notice. It is your responsibility to attend. Communication has gotten way better in the past 5 years between ANHJ's and there teams. Bill W and the 69-70 class including Boss is a prime example. No stones left unturned with Bill and his Judges.

Unfortunately IMHO (and stated publically a number of times) the MCA site, especially the Judges area, is under unitized and undermanned since its been open

You are correct as most come to this site for help and answers. It is hard for all of you here to police all sites. I believe this is why this site was launched. Look above to communication of all involved.

A bit off thread but somewhat related to a side subject brought up. Wish it was better but many of us tried. Now back the regular subjects
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: 67158 on January 03, 2016, 10:49:47 PM
Was unable to change color for my response above but I think everyone will be able to inturpret it.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: caspian65 on January 03, 2016, 11:00:07 PM
Going back to the original topic... something else to mention regarding trailering a car that is concours driven allows the owner more time to prepare the car versus someone that actually drove their car to the show.  This was actually one of the biggest reasons we split the classes.  If judges are being consistent in judging cleanliness, it would make sense that the car that was trailered would most likely be cleaner than a car that was driven.  Not even taking into consideration the possibility of a driven car being driven through bad weather or dirty road conditions.  It does not fare well for the driven car in this scenario.

While I'm all for making our jobs as volunteers easier, I'm thinking that there might be a little backlash from this decision.  I'm optimistic that there won't be, but based on past experiences, I'd be surprised if there wasn't any fuss.

I also feel that there should be more communication and that the judges meeting should not be the only place that recommendations and decisions are being made.  That's why when I was NHJ we switched from an annual judges meeting to an annual judges training.  If the NHJ/ANHJ, Gold Card/Certified Judges are all working together, communication should be happening throughout the year so that a consensus should already be in place on recommendations.  Unfortunately, immediately after I resigned, the old round-table judges meeting was put back in place... which in my opinion was a step backwards.

Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: 67158 on January 03, 2016, 11:08:48 PM
Charles
 I do agree with your last statement. The BOD made an effort to change this and make it a working meeting. Unfortunately that was undone mid year. The NHJ's have agreed to make this work for this year.
 Everyone here has a say in what happens your voice just needs to be heard. Heard before the fact and not after. I have made the attempt and will continue to but the entire community needs to become more involved through engagement wheather  attending shows and judging or attending meetings and seminars.

Jeff Mays
President MCA
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: caspian65 on January 04, 2016, 12:14:54 AM
Thanks for the reply Jeff, your feedback here is always appreciated.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: PerkinsRestoration on January 04, 2016, 12:18:20 AM
Just as a historical point. The management of MCA Judging has oscillated back and forth through the years on how decisions  were made. Sometimes  there is allot of input and sometimes just a couple of people get a vote.  There have even been years where no open Annual Judges Meeting (Head Judge didn't want the hassle and figured we didn't need input) was held. One such meeting was held on a Mississippi river boat with about eight people in attendance. With other Head Judges input was much greater but in general it has had a fairly large range over the decades depending on the person(s) and the agenda.

In recent years little communication IMHO took place between the Heads and the Assistance's as to votes and opinions related to where MCA Judging was going. This was one of the main reasons I stepped down from my position of Assistant Head Judge that I had held on and off (a couple vacations in there) since the early 90's. Guess what I'm trying to say (again) is that in a volunteer organization, volunteers what to have at least the appearance of input and a hand in the direction the organization (or subgroup) is going.

Unfortunately IMHO (and stated publically a number of times) the MCA site, especially the Judges area, is under unitized and undermanned since its been open. Last post in the judging only area was July 28th of 2015 - Twelve threads in approximately five years.

A bit off thread but somewhat related to a side subject brought up. Wish it was better but many of us tried. Now back the regular subjects

[]Jeff, I agree a bit off Topic and not historically accurate either![/color]
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: Richard P. on January 04, 2016, 11:39:20 AM
I've driven three early Mustangs up and down the East Coast from 1982 to present. I truly know what it means to drive a early Mustang to shows. I can say that if it wasn't for class CDT my friends and I with three early Mustangs wouldn't have attended the MCA G/N in Disney World or the MCA G/N in Columbus, Ohio with five early Mustangs. I mentioned earlier that a discussion about this took place online shortly after the last G/N in Columbus. I voiced my concerns and opinion at that time. Perhaps I'm not reading this correctly but it appears that the decisions about the class was already made. If that's the case why ask for input?
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: caspian65 on January 04, 2016, 11:52:24 AM
Rich, the start of this topic was asking if the CDT class had been removed and Marty confirmed it had.  Although, he also stated that trailered cars would still be allowed in Concours Driven, just that they would have to show signs of actually being a normal driven car.  Seems to be more of a consolidation of classes, although as I mentioned in a couple posts, there may be some folks not happy with this.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: Richard P. on January 04, 2016, 12:11:45 PM
Charles the first mention of eliminating the CDT class was a e-mail dated September 24, 2015. I still have that e-mail. I questioned at that time who, when and where the decision was made? It was unclear at that time if a proposal of this nature required approval of the MCA BOD. I haven't seen anything from the last meeting so I'm not sure what took place. It sounded to me like the decision was already made.   
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: mmsnyr8120 on January 04, 2016, 12:20:06 PM
My first reaction at hearing the news was "how many early cars will show up to be judged?"  Sometimes there are only 5 early cars in concours classes.  Yes, Ohio, was a big show and so was Orlando.  But sometimes that is not the norm.  Laurie put on a fantastic show in Tucson but not many early cars.  Even though we are not showing our car anymore, we still enjoy going to the shows for Matt to judge.  And see all the wonderful people we have met over the years that we would never had met if not for MCA.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: caspian65 on January 04, 2016, 02:23:12 PM
Charles the first mention of eliminating the CDT class was a e-mail dated September 24, 2015. I still have that e-mail. I questioned at that time who, when and where the decision was made? It was unclear at that time if a proposal of this nature required approval of the MCA BOD. I haven't seen anything from the last meeting so I'm not sure what took place. It sounded to me like the decision was already made.

Ah, understand now, thanks.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: Hawkeye on January 05, 2016, 06:32:11 PM
Richard it was discussed for the Occasionally Driven classes but was decided not to change them this year. If Concours change goes well look for them to change next year.
This is one area that confuses me.  My car ('64 1/2) is driven, occasionally, during the good months, but for me to get it to Indy (which I'm planning and registered for), I'm planning on putting it on a trailer, mostly because I can't drive anything for more than a couple hours without cruise control because of a hip that keeps complaining to me that it needs to be replaced.  And because I'm more confident that my Jeep can make the 4.5 hour drive without a major or minor mechanical problem.  So, will this put me in the trailered class, even tho it's only for safety and convenience?  I think of the trailered class for those cars that are never driven.  And I know there's no judging in Indy next year, but since I'm not expecting a show close enough to actually drive to, I will go to future shows the same way.
To the poster who can drive 1500 miles to a show, you sir, are my hero.  Wish I could.  My car has been driven thru everything imaginable back when it was my only ride (even had to put snow chains on it one day in Cali or risk a ticket).
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: 67gta289 on January 05, 2016, 08:16:14 PM
So, will this put me in the trailered class
I don't think that this assumption is correct.

My understanding (always subject to correction) is that a car classified as trailered is rarely, if ever, driven much more than a limited amount in very controlled conditions.  This might also even include not being started, no water in the W/S washer reservoir, etc.

A car classified as driven can be trailered a long distance to a show, but it should show signs of being driven.  There are plenty of indicators for this.

Stated another way, a car that is driven for pleasure around town, then trailered a long distance to a show, is driven, not trailered.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: BobV on January 05, 2016, 09:47:06 PM
So, will this put me in the trailered class, even tho it's only for safety and convenience?  I think of the trailered class for those cars that are never driven. 
I don't think that this assumption is correct.

My understanding (always subject to correction) is that a car classified as trailered is rarely, if ever, driven much more than a limited amount in very controlled conditions.  This might also even include not being started, no water in the W/S washer reservoir, etc.

A car classified as driven can be trailered a long distance to a show, but it should show signs of being driven.  There are plenty of indicators for this.

Stated another way, a car that is driven for pleasure around town, then trailered a long distance to a show, is driven, not trailered.

I agree with your assessment, based on what was said earlier:
I can confirm CDT is gone. It's not bad. All driven cars will be in Concours driven whether driven to the show or trailered. They will have to show real signs of being real driven cars at check in. In the past CDA, CDB, CDC.... and CDT were judged just the same and since the cars are judged against a standard and not head to head it will still be fair to put them in the same class. It will greatly simplify things in the tally room and for the assistant head judges. It was also a bit confusing at the awards ceremony for cars from several generations being given awards in the same class.
We would welcome you thoughts and comments on this change at mustang.org
Marty
Maybe I'm thick-headed, but I'm not seeing what the big deal is. If you were Concours Driven Trailered before, you're now just in the Concours Driven class appropriate for your car, regardless of how you got it there... Your car just needs to show signs (odometer or other) that it actually DOES get street driven.

As someone who always DRIVES his CD car (and spends hours & hours cleaning), I'd personally rather see the trailered cars go in Concours Trailered, but that's NOT what at all I'm reading this change to be. I'm fine with it anyway, as we're really just competing against ourself, not others.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: caspian65 on January 06, 2016, 12:48:18 AM
As someone who always DRIVES his CD car (and spends hours & hours cleaning), I'd personally rather see the trailered cars go in Concours Trailered, but that's NOT what at all I'm reading this change to be. I'm fine with it anyway, as we're really just competing against ourself, not others.

Bob, it actually can affect the outcome of the judging of your car.  Say I have 4 cars to judge in concours driven, 2 are trailered to the show, 2 others driven.  One of the cars was driven through rain on the way to the show.  The 2 trailered cars, although typically driven, are prepared and cleaned days/weeks before the show and then transported in an enclosed trailer.

If the judging team starts with the trailered car, they're probably not going to find many cleanliness issues.  Next car is the one driven through the rain.  It's probably going to have surface rust showing underneath, dirty wheel wells, etc...  I really do not see how a judging team can be consistent in a class of cars like this.  It doesn't seem like a very fair playing field when considering this scenario.  Like it or not, the cleanliness of cars in a class can affect the overall scores of others in the class.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: Hawkeye on January 06, 2016, 10:08:02 AM
I don't think that this assumption is correct.

My understanding (always subject to correction) is that a car classified as trailered is rarely, if ever, driven much more than a limited amount in very controlled conditions.  This might also even include not being started, no water in the W/S washer reservoir, etc.

A car classified as driven can be trailered a long distance to a show, but it should show signs of being driven.  There are plenty of indicators for this.

Stated another way, a car that is driven for pleasure around town, then trailered a long distance to a show, is driven, not trailered.
That would be my guess as well, but I've seen it explained differently somewhere else.  I suppose this may not be an issue next year anyway, so I can worry about figuring it out then if the class still exists.
Thanks for the input, at least my thinking isn't totally off base.
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: BobV on January 06, 2016, 11:28:47 AM
Bob, it actually can affect the outcome of the judging of your car.  Say I have 4 cars to judge in concours driven, 2 are trailered to the show, 2 others driven.  One of the cars was driven through rain on the way to the show.  The 2 trailered cars, although typically driven, are prepared and cleaned days/weeks before the show and then transported in an enclosed trailer.

If the judging team starts with the trailered car, they're probably not going to find many cleanliness issues.  Next car is the one driven through the rain.  It's probably going to have surface rust showing underneath, dirty wheel wells, etc...  I really do not see how a judging team can be consistent in a class of cars like this.  It doesn't seem like a very fair playing field when considering this scenario.  Like it or not, the cleanliness of cars in a class can affect the overall scores of others in the class.

I agree 100% that it CAN...
However, my experience has actually been the opposite. I always make sure in the introductions that I let the judges know "We drove  this car 700 miles to be here, and 150 of that was in the rain". Of course, I bust my ass to have the car CLEAN (washed 3X at Loveland), and get the presentation "right". Yes, they may find a few things, but I think most good judges DO tend to give a you a little break if they find surface rust on a tie rod IF they know you DROVE and the rest of the car is up to snuff. 2 of my last 3 shows involved rain driving, and the other had night driving (BUGS everywhere!). And, 2 of those 3 shows, the judges have specifically stated afterwards that they were shocked the car was driven.

Wheelwells are a part of the cleaning process. I don't care if you drove or not, there's no reason they can't be clean, much like bugs in the radiator - where there's a will, there's a way. Same with wheels & tires.

I've seen many issues with trailered cars that "drive" :P me crazy. Just because it WAS clean a month ago when put back in the trailer at the last show, doesn't mean it's clean today. I'm always amazed at the dust and cobwebs I see on a car being presented. IMHO, you can't push it out of the trailer 5 minutes before judging and "be ready"... Work needs to be done there, and the fact you trailered it is no more an excuse than the fact someone else drove. ...and don't get me started on open trailers. Sometimes that's worse than driving! Maybe we should separate open vs closed trailered too. (THAT'S a JOKE!  ;D)

With the layout of the CD judging sheet, by the time they get to the undercarriage, the decision is pretty well made, anyway.  ;)
Of course, the undercarriage isn't AS BIG of an issue on mine, as how DO you see under this  ;D ?
(http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp282/GT350Clone/2015Q3/IMG_1049.jpg)
Title: Re: MCA getting rid of Concours Driven Trailered class???
Post by: Laurie S. on January 06, 2016, 03:26:26 PM
Although my 68 coupe has been Conservator class for 10 years now and travels in an enclosed trailer, I still clean it as though I had driven it to the show.  I spend about 8 hours detailing the car before loading it into the trailer, and another couple hours cleaning after it is at the show.  I don't have to do any of that, because the car always is clean, but I enjoy doing it and making the car looks its best.

I remember judging trailered concours at Mustang, Oklahoma several years ago and told the owner I would give him 5 minutes to remove the cobwebs from his front suspension.   I didn't even have to get on the ground to see them, they were that bad.  He insisted the car was clean and did nothing despite my warning.  He lost a lot of cleanliness points.  The car looked great from the top of the tires up, and pretty darn bad underneath.