Author Topic: Heater Plenum  (Read 4966 times)

Offline ChrisV289

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Heater Plenum
« on: April 29, 2015, 11:53:24 PM »
Question, is it normal to take off a point for having the plastic heater plenum in concours trailered/driven (not Thoroughbred class)?  Finding a cardboard one not damaged is getting harder and I don't think Scott Drake, NPD, or Virginia Mustang will be reproducing one anytime soon..
Chris
1965 Honey Gold Fastback

Offline ruppstang

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2015, 12:26:28 AM »
Chris yes it is. The plastic plenum does not come close to the appearance of the original. I understand it is difficult to find good original plenums but you have to give credit to the car that has it. Also if there is enough demand manufactures will make a better reproduction.
Marty
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 12:28:46 AM by ruppstang »

Offline ChrisV289

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2015, 12:37:39 AM »
Then shouldn't the rules be updated to state, mandatory 1 point deduction for plastic heater plenum just like for the Autolite battery and Gabriel shocks?  I looked through the judging rules and there was nothing mentioned about the plenum.  They were updated this year so that the FL-1A oil filter couldn't be used on 64-66 Mustangs since the double rib is reproduced. 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 12:42:25 AM by ChrisV289 »
Chris
1965 Honey Gold Fastback

Offline Richard P.

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2015, 08:08:28 AM »
I don't see where it is necessary to put the mandatory 1 point rule in for the plenum. It is no different than any other hard to find. part. There are a number of parts on a Mustang that aren't reproduced. I like the rule.

Offline mmsnyr8120

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2015, 12:12:25 PM »
I judged your car.  Like Marty said, you can't punish the car that has it right.  My car has the correct one.

Offline ChrisV289

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2015, 03:24:50 PM »
I'm not saying punish the car that has it right.  I'm glad they have the cardboard one but some cars, that might be long gone before the current owner even got the car.  My point was, it is not called out anywhere in the rules that you cannot have/use the plastic plenum.   When someone is preparing the car to be judged they are going to look through those rules and not see, "cannot use or point deduction for plastic plenum."  The battery, shocks, tires, and other parts are called out that there will be a point deduction if a certain type is used or not used...I was under the impression the plastic one can be used since I was not in the Thoroughbred class where judging is more strict and ink stamps have to be used instead of the decals....
Chris
1965 Honey Gold Fastback

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2015, 03:29:26 PM »
My point was, it is not called out anywhere in the rules that you cannot have/use the plastic plenum.   
It may fall under the general point deduction catch-all - "not as original".
Jim
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Offline caspian65

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2015, 04:29:10 PM »
There are many judges that do not deduct for plastic plenums on concours cars and many that do.  I agree that something like this could be spelled out in the rulebook to make it more clear which one is acceptable.  I'm guessing that there would be some serious complaining if it was decided that plastic ones were not allowed  I personally would like to see the rule say that only cardboard is allowed, might actually get someone interested in doing a nice repro.

There are lots of items that are not in the rules, mainly because if every detail was written out, the judging sheets would be about 50 pages long and it would take several hours to judge one car.  :-)   The judging rules are simply a tool in evaluating a car at a national show.  If we stuck to what was explicitly stated on the sheets, most cars would get Gold.
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Offline mmsnyr8120

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2015, 08:29:32 PM »
Concours judging is supposed to be strict.  When my car was in judged classes, the judges always took points off in an effort to make me better the car.  I don't think we should start to give bonus points to the cars that have correct parts.  So not taking points off for wrong items is like punishing the car that is correct.

Offline Richard P.

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2015, 08:44:00 PM »
Concours judging is supposed to be strict.  When my car was in judged classes, the judges always took points off in an effort to make me better the car.  I don't think we should start to give bonus points to the cars that have correct parts.  So not taking points off for wrong items is like punishing the car that is correct.
+ 1 Very well stated

Offline carlite65

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2015, 09:04:05 PM »
+ 2 on that.
5F09C331248

Offline caspian65

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2015, 11:11:09 PM »
+3, well said Matt.  I know how you feel, for those folks that go the extra mile and get a detail or part correct, seems like their efforts go in vain if cars without the correct part or detail are not deducted for.
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Offline markb0729

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2015, 05:42:16 PM »
So if a cardboard plenum was reproduced that was a good match to the original but you could tell it was a repro because let's say it looked new, would there be a point deduction?

Is the object here to use original parts that are as close to new as possible or are repro parts that are exact matches to the original (minus date codes and part numbers) acceptable with no point deduction.

I'm trying to see the difference between thoroughbred and concours classes.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 05:49:32 PM by markb0729 »
65 Dearborn Built Fastback
Approximate Build Date, September 2, 1964
289 4V, C4, PS, PB, No A/C

Offline caspian65

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2015, 06:53:04 PM »
So if a cardboard plenum was reproduced that was a good match to the original but you could tell it was a repro because let's say it looked new, would there be a point deduction?
A poorly done reproduction, that didn't replicate the original piece would get a deduction, even if it was cardboard.  A well done reproduction would not get a point deduction in concours just because it looked new.  If there was something obvious about the piece that a judge could spot the piece as a repro, then there would be a deduction in T-bred.  A perfect repro in T-bred can get by, but it has to be really good.

Quote
Is the object here to use original parts that are as close to new as possible or are repro parts that are exact matches to the original (minus date codes and part numbers) acceptable with no point deduction.

The object is to make the cars appear as they were new.  In concours, repro parts are allowed as long as they look reasonably close to original.  Date codes are not usually considered in concours, unless it's something way off, like a C8 intake on a '65.

Quote
I'm trying to see the difference between thoroughbred and concours classes.
Parts are scrutinized more in T-bred.  Something like a repro gas cap would be acceptable on a concours car, but in T-bred, it would have to be the correct piece with proper markings.  It's not easy to delineate the 2 classes and judging T-bred cars is very difficult.

I'm sure others have different opinions on the matter.  Probably useful to start a new topic if you'd like to discuss the differences between t-bred and concours further.
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Offline caspian65

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Re: Heater Plenum
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2015, 07:00:40 PM »
One other thing to mention about  is the new vs. old question...

An old ratty plenum can be installed on a show car, it may be broken or warped.  There would be no authenticity points lost for installing something like this, but points would be deducted for condition.  Whereas using a plastic plenum gets authenticity points deducted, but if it's clean and looks good, no workmanship/condition/cleanliness deducted.  From this perspective, it can come down to a personal preference.  Would you rather have everything look new and maybe not be completely authentic or have authentic parts that have cosmetic/condition issues?  Some judging organizations prefer the latter.  MCA wants everything to look new in concours/t-bred (unless the t-bred is unrestored).
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
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