Topic: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet

[196667Bob]

At least according to the Part Number, B 12145, this same part should apply to 1965-73 Mustangs (and many other pre - 1965 Fords). Does anyone have any documentation as to its finish, if any ? I have not been able to come up with any NOS Service Parts (which of course may or may not have the same finish as Assembly Line parts), and the reproductions only add more questions. Some that I have seen appear to be either plain finish or zinc plated (the description does not state) , and others, in particular those sold by NPD, appear to have a finish similar to zinc dichromate. NPD does make it clear that the rivets they offer, are not "concourse correct".

Hopefully, someone can substantiate what the original finish should be.

Thanks, in advance, for any help.

Bob

[rockhouse66]

The ones from NPD are actually brass.  I have not been able to document this detail with certainty (started a thread here on it a while back) but have been told that the later model years, like '69-'70, were dichromate (gold).  I think that the earlier ones, like '65-'67 were zinc.  What I don't know is the changeover time frame.


I don't find traces of gold on any of them that I have worked on, but I do have pictures of NOS '69 - '70 distributors with the gold pins.  These, of course, are later built service parts.

[Bob Gaines]

I have had numerous NOS units from the 60's and seen many more over the years. Many times but not always the pins had a slight goldish greenish hue . I get the impression that whatever they were coated with was thin and would wear off or corrode off quickly once exposed to engine compartment environment .The pins are so small it is hard to pick up on the detail in pictures. It does not look like the typical zinc dichromate . It is a mystery that I would like to hear about solved.

[196667Bob]

Jim and Bob : Thanks for your input.
Bob, yes, I agree that is a much lighter coating than normal zinc dichromate, And appears to be more of a "wash", which would explain why it wears off so easily.

Hopefully, we'll get some more input on this so we can answer this question.

Bob

[Scott302]

The MCA rules for 65-66 Shelby specify the pin as being "green".  I took that to be zinc chromate.
Regards,
Scott

[Bob Gaines]

The MCA rules for 65-66 Shelby specify the pin as being "green". I took that to be zinc chromate.
Regards,
Scott

Zinc chromate does not define what the finish looks like. Zinc is silver and chromate by itself is clear. A chromate when applied over zinc gives it added corrosion protection. There are many colors of chromate, gold ,black ,olive drab just to name just a few of the more common.

[carlite65]

i do not have pics but the nos ones i have seen had an olive drab look to them.  don't know how that look was achieved.

[Scott302]

Correction:Ford calls it zinc with O.D. chromate (S43).  The aircraft industry used to call it zinc chromate which is an olive colored rust preventative coating.
Regards,
Scott

[Bossbill]

That reminds me of black chromate. Just like the seat plates.
It has black, green and other colors. A bit rainbow-ish like the gold chromate.
A lot of the color differences depend on how long it's in the chromate.

If you want a lot of green, then olive drab chromate.

[J_Speegle]

Ones I have on 67-69, from the same production period (not later NOS), that show zinc dichromate with a green tint similar to what we see on things like Ported Vacuum Switches and  some thermactor parts

Found this picture already uploaded

Believe I posted others pictures in at least one other thread showing this. Will look and see if I can find that thread Or I'll drag out some examples and take better shots of the head of the pin and post

[Bob Gaines]

Ones I have on 67-69, from the same production period (not later NOS), that show zinc dichromate with a green tint similar to what we see on things like Ported Vacuum Switches and  some thermactor parts

That pin looks too green to be like the ported vacuum tree (gold/yellow chromate ) IMO. It looks more like olive drab to me.

[J_Speegle]

That pin looks too green to be like the ported vacuum tree (gold/yellow chromate ) IMO. It looks more like olive drab to me.

Don't judge the color from that poor picture. For me its not even close to the olive daub one would see on screw clips and the like. Way too flat and think of a coating IMHO.
This is very translusant

Will provide more and better pictures once I get some examples out. Shafts should pull out with little effort so we can see more surface area. Might throw a few in my pocket and bring them with me this week when I see you

[196667Bob]

Scott : Thanks for joining in on this topic. Just to ?set the record straight?, you do not have any Ford documentation on the finish of the B 12145 rivets, but are basing your comments on the 1965-66 Shelby MCA judging Rules, and possibly your observations (?), correct ?

Interestingly, before starting this thread, I had looked at the MCA Rules for MUSTANGS, but not for Shelbys. After reading your Post, I went back and looked at the Shelby Rules. What stands out is that only the 1965-66 Shelby Rules address the ?green? rivet. IMO, the ?green? rivet should apply to all models from early 50?s up through even 1983 on some models. I believe that MCA should revisit the rules and include the ?green? statement in all 1965-73 Judging Rules.

As for the finish that produces the ?green? look, I am curious as to where you found that S43 for pre-1975. The July 1959 Corporate Standard Parts book skips from S42 to S45 ; the 1969 Ford Standard & Utility Parts Catalog stops at S42 ; the 1975 S&UPC does list S43 with the description of ?Zinc Chromate (as you initially noted) ; and the 2004 S&UPC lists S43 and S43B (zinc chromate-black). In addition, the 2004 S&UPC also notes some finishes with a 3 digit suffix. Of these, the S414 appears to be the ?Olive Drab Zinc Chromate finish.

Don?t get me wrong, I?m not disputing that the B12145 rivets should exhibit a ?greenish tint?, I just think that all years should. I find it odd though, that the olive drab zinc chromate finish isn?t actually listed until later ; possibly before the S414 being actually listed, Ford considered this a ?Special Finish?. Even my 50?s cars exhibit the greenish silver tint, although on some, the green has somewhat ?vanished? over the years, and the rivets actually appear like Aluminum, although they are steel.

Finally, I did a little more digging into the reproduction B12145?s. After contacting several suppliers, I found, at least to this point, that they are only available in Brass, or Nickel plated. The pictures ofb the rivets that Mac?s has posted make them appear  to be almost correct (less the green tint), but after contacting them, they noted that they are Nickel plated.

Bob

[jwc66k]

Ford engineering could change the source document for any part at any time for any number of reasons, in this case, material and/or finish, as long as it did not change the form, fit or function (a government term used for interchangeability). The changes would be reflected on the source document, which we do not have access to. As a general rule, the revision on the source document of the change is not part of the part number (B 12145), a generally good practice.
When the part was not backwards compatible, Ford made a new dash number for its identification (In this case the part number could be "B 12145-1" or "B 12145-A".)
As this is a service number, there is no reason to confuse their service departments with a lot of extraneous information. All the guy in the service department wants is the part.
Jim

[Scott302]

Bob,  The S43 is from the first Standard parts catalogs I pulled from my shelf.  In this case 1976.  Didn't look at any others.  I have 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1976, 1982, 2005 & 2006.  The 65-66 Shelby MCA rules are what started me on this path as I was working on re-writing the 65-66 Mustang MCA rules.  I am the current MCA assistant national head judge (ANHJ) for 64 1/2-66 Mustang.  Ron Wheeler (MCA's ANHJ for Shelby's) had talked to me a couple years ago about integrating the more detailed 65-66 Mustang concours rules into the Shelby rules.  I wrote a combined set of rules for him last year and in doing so found some items in the 65-66 Shelby rules missing from the 65-66 Mustang rules.