ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1969 Mustang => Topic started by: Brian Conway on July 17, 2015, 03:45:21 PM
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Would like to check with you guys for a double check before proceeding further. The car is a 9/19/68 built Metuchen 428 CJ. Phosphate and Oil finish on; hood hinges, shock tower to firewall braces, shock tower caps and the coil bracket. Thanks for taking a look. Brian
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Would like to check with you guys for a double check before proceeding further. The car is a 9/19/68 built Metuchen 428 CJ. Phosphate and Oil finish on;
For 69 NJ Mustangs
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hood hinges - Yes
shock tower to firewall braces - The two long sheet metal braces would have been semi-gloss black Need to add those back into the FAQ section - must have dropped out last revision
shock tower caps - Yes as described in the 69-70 FAQs
coil bracket - Yes
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=4.0
FAQ's updated :)
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Thank you Jeff. Yes I checked the FAQ section first. Brian
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The correct finish for the nuts and bolts attaching the shock tower cap (3)and the shock absorber (2) ? Thanks, Brian
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The correct finish for the nuts and bolts attaching the shock tower cap (3)and the shock absorber (2) ? Thanks, Brian
The correct finish on the hardware doesn't matter if the hardware is incorrect ;) . Zinc phosphate on the correct nuts and zinc silver on the correct shock bolts. The shock bolts you can order online the correct nuts are junk yard source since I am aware that AMK doesn't have the right ones (for 69).
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Thank you Bob for sharing the finish information. Brian
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Would like some help with the Hood Hinge bolt finish. Seems the correct finish for the Hinges themselves is Phosphate and Oil. Grey/Brown ? The after market indicates Black Phosphate for the bolts. Three into the fender wall and two into the hood each side. Is Black Oxide the correct finish for the 5 bolts ? Thanks, Brian
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Would like some help with the Hood Hinge bolt finish. Seems the correct finish for the Hinges themselves is Phosphate and Oil. Grey/Brown ? The after market indicates Black Phosphate for the bolts. Three into the fender wall and two into the hood each side. Is Black Oxide the correct finish for the 5 bolts ? Thanks, Brian
Took a while to find some that didn't have some surface rust (like we see on the hinges also) on these NJ examples
Found three examples where they were not so weathered and monotone and it appears that the bolts had the same finish as the fender edge bolts like we see at other plants
Hope this helps
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-100516170932-5678417.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-100516170935-56791348.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-100516170937-56801836.jpeg)
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Excellent. Great pictures Jeff and thanks for taking the time.
To catch up with the NJ Finish's; The fender bolts I got from AMK and they are the Cadmiun finish. The Shock Tower cap bolts are Clear Zinc. Brian
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Took a while to find some that didn't have some surface rust (like we see on the hinges also) on these NJ examples
Found three examples where they were not so weathered and monotone and it appears that the bolts had the same finish as the fender edge bolts like we see at other plants
Hope this helps
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-100516170937-56801836.jpeg)
There appears to be a nut between the bolt's washer and the hinge, an indication that something is - what? It looks like the hood has been removed and the bolts used to reinstall were too long, used possibly for hood alignment, so a nut was used as a spacer. This is to keep a too long of a bolt from making a dent in the hood. In any case the hood and hinge should not considered as factory.
Jim
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Sure it's not just the hood your seeing rather than a nut below the washer ? Brian
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There appears to be a nut between the bolt's washer and the hinge, an indication that something is - what? It looks like the hood has been removed and the bolts used to reinstall were too long, used possibly for hood alignment, so a nut was used as a spacer. This is to keep a too long of a bolt from making a dent in the hood. In any case the hood and hinge should not considered as factory.
Jim
Believe that the angle is such that you see the adjusting slot fully (due to how the hood is adjusted) and part on the J nut rather than some nut or spaced
If a nut had been installed on the bolt you would not be able to see it from this angle considering the large washer used at that particular spot IMHO
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author=Bob Gaines
The correct finish on the hardware doesn't matter if the hardware is incorrect ;) . Zinc phosphate on the correct nuts and zinc silver on the correct shock bolts. The shock bolts you can order online the correct nuts are junk yard source since I am aware that AMK doesn't have the right ones (for 69).
Bob Is saying the shock tower nuts (6) should be Zinc Phosphate in finish/color. It seems Zinc Phosphate can be different shades or colors ? My understanding is ' Dark Grey/Brown '. If Bob would like to define a zinc phosphate color that would be correct that would clear that up. Jeff; pictures would also clear up that mystery for me as well. The fender and hood hinge bolts are the same ? Would the shock tower cap 6 nuts be that same finish ? Thanks, Brian
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author=Bob Gaines
The correct finish on the hardware doesn't matter if the hardware is incorrect ;) . Zinc phosphate on the correct nuts and zinc silver on the correct shock bolts. The shock bolts you can order online the correct nuts are junk yard source since I am aware that AMK doesn't have the right ones (for 69).
Bob Is saying the shock tower nuts (6) should be Zinc Phosphate in finish/color. It seems Zinc Phosphate can be different shades or colors ? My understanding is ' Dark Grey/Brown '. If Bob would like to define a zinc phosphate color that would be correct that would clear that up. Jeff; pictures would also clear up that mystery for me as well. The fender and hood hinge bolts are the same ? Would the shock tower cap 6 nuts be that same finish ? Thanks, Brian
First off I believe that Dearborn and NJ use the same 6 "tall" nuts for the upper shock bracket . The correct style is unlike what you have now if they in fact are like Dearborn as I suspect. The style I am speaking of were zinc phosphate which ranges in shade from a light to dark gray. The style that you have now in the picture I have always seen zinc silver but as i said I am skeptical that they are original to your NJ car.
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Thanks for the reply and explanation. Pictures of the wire wheeled parts that were on the car when I got it. They may not be OE but hard to imagine why not. The car is a September 68 build so maybe parts left from the 68 model run ? Brian
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Thanks for the reply and explanation. Pictures of the wire wheeled parts that were on the car when I got it. They may not be OE but hard to imagine why not. The car is a September 68 build so maybe parts left from the 68 model run ? Brian
Brian, I guess the same reason that the two upper shock bolts and shock were replaced in the reply #2 picture. The shock was replaced and since the bracket had to be taken off sometimes fasteners get replaced too. You have me second guessing myself in regards to the style of nut on a NJ 69. "If" that 68 style of nut was used it would be zinc silver. The taller 69 Dearborn nuts I suspect is more correct were zinc phosphate.
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OK, might be onto something here. A fella on the CJ site has posted a couple pictures of his 11-4-68 Metuchen car and the shock tower appears in one of them. A picture of the type of nuts and finish your are describing is in there I think ? I am better with pictures. So does this appear to be the style and finish correct for my car ? Brian
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Thanks for the reply and explanation. Pictures of the wire wheeled parts that were on the car when I got it. They may not be OE but hard to imagine why not. The car is a September 68 build so maybe parts left from the 68 model run ? Brian
Looking at my collection of pictures the ones you show in the pictures are what I'm finding for 69 NJ. Only found 1 car with the taller Dearborn style. This IMHO suggests a different main supplier for each of these plants - Referring to the earlier pictures you posted rather than the new one you replaced those with ???
Can't find a clear picture showing the bottom of the carriage bolts - nice thing is that that end will not be visible
Will post some pictures
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Here you go - tried to focus on the time around your posted build date. Have more from through out the year all the same as the majority style shown below
The one tall nut example I was able to find
9T152094
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-300516160921-58232346.jpeg)
The rest
9T132390
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-300516160919-58211535.jpeg)
9T149360
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-300516160920-58221284.jpeg)
9T160196
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-300516160922-58241017.jpeg)
9T16xxxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-300516160917-58191139.jpeg)
9T163024
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-300516160923-58252157.jpeg)
9T167569
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-300516160925-58261427.jpeg)
9T177402
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-300516160926-5827400.jpeg)
9T190890
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-300516160927-58281018.jpeg)
PS noticed that you asked an owner for some more pictures of their car on another site (you mentioned "may have helped solve a part and finish question") be aware that though the car is a NJ car originally the engine compartment details appears to be a collection of finishes and details from Dearborn and San Jose plants that were choosen during the build, are likely to lead you astray. Saw the car in person a couple of years back.
The lines you asked about are to the vacuum can for the AC.
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Thanks Jeff for the pictures. Looking at the 2 nd picture posted 9T132 and those nuts appear to be the same as the ones on my car 9T108. Not the Tall Detroit version. Is that correct ? Beginning to have trouble seeing the blurry pictures with any clarity. If the round shouldered version, pictured, they would be clear zinc phosphate ? Brian
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Thanks Jeff for the pictures. Looking at the 2 nd picture posted 9T132 and those nuts appear to be the same as the ones on my car 9T108. Not the Tall Detroit version. Is that correct ? Beginning to have trouble seeing the blurry pictures with any clarity. If the round shouldered version, pictured, they would be clear zinc phosphate ? Brian
All pictured examples plus all the others I have pictures from that plant and year (excluding restored cars) except for the first example are the "rounded/angled" top surface style like you found on your car.
Finish is another question - do you have an assembly manual to find out what it states as far as part number - finish?
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Thanks for the extra effort Jeff. The ' Library 'section, supplied by Jim, lists this part as 33771 S4. Zinc-Phosphate Brown/Dark Grey. I'll be using the ' rounded/angled ' nut. The one on the right in the photo supplied by the very same Jim. Brian
...and Jeff thanks for the heads up about the other car I was looking at.
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Thanks for the extra effort Jeff. The ' Library 'section, supplied by Jim, lists this part as 33771 S4. Zinc-Phosphate Brown/Dark Grey. I'll be using the ' rounded/angled ' nut. The one on the right in the photo supplied by the very same Jim. Brian
The taller nut that you plan on using also appears to be the ones used in Jeff's pictures for 9T160196,9T1633024,9T190890 which would be a good indicator of it's usage. The flat top tall nut is the typical 69 Dearborn version.
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Thanks for the extra effort Jeff. The ' Library 'section, supplied by Jim, lists this part as 33771 S4. Zinc-Phosphate Brown/Dark Grey. I'll be using the ' rounded/angled ' nut. The one on the right in the photo supplied by the very same Jim. Brian
I'm going to go out on a limb here and question the 33771 part number. The May '75 MPC illustration does show that part number for the nut, but I don't believe it represents what was used on the assembly line. If you look closely at your photos and Jeff's photos of both the "tall" and "short" original nuts, you'll notice they have crimp marks. These are known as "distorted-thread lock nuts" or "crimp lock nuts". The crimps are added during manufacturing. The crimping causes them to grip the bolt more tightly, which is highly desirable in a highly critical application like attaching suspension components.
Part number 33771, however, is a UBS (Uniform Bearing Strength) nut, which to the best of my knowledge was never used as a crimp nut. You will note some visual differences, too - it is tall like the "tall" nuts, but has the top edge chamfer like the "short" ones.
Update: UBS nuts are "prevailing torque" fasteners, i.e. they also have distorted threads. But they do not have an obvious crimp like the other two being discussed. The large chamfer at the top is a result of the distortion. Note that the "short" nut being discussed has a large top chamfer, but it also has visible "tri-bar" (my term) crimp marks. The "tall" nut has a rectangular crimp on one or more of the flats.
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and question the 33771 part number.
Osborn Assembly Manuals specify 33771-S4 UBS nuts. AMK guide to Ford Fasteners shows crimps for UBS nuts. No other nut in the AMK guide meets the dimensions of the 3/8-16 nut. The MPC does not reflect assembly line hardware, but a service replacement. If a assembly line hardware item and service replacement are the same, it's coincidental. That's it.
Jim
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One more item, Ford documentation indicates that for -S2 finish, both "zinc phosphate" and "magnesium phosphate" were acceptable as long as they finished items met salt spray, thickness and other specifications we have no way in checking. Finish -S4 was established for UBS hardware, there is no difference in general between it and -S2. To keep it simple - as in reducing the possibility of errors - referring to -S2 and -S4 as "phosphate and oil" would be a good idea.
Jim
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Thanks for the extra effort Jeff. The ' Library 'section, supplied by Jim, lists this part as 33771 S4. Zinc-Phosphate Brown/Dark Grey. I'll be using the ' rounded/angled ' nut. The one on the right in the photo supplied by the very same Jim. Brian
To confirm the ones in the pictures (except the top most) matches the one to the right in your pictures. It (like San Jose ones) has a angle top surface and "v"'s for a lack of a better term showing that they are locking nuts. Sorry your having some issues with seeing the details. On my computer they are likely larger (27" screen)
While we're also on the topic of finish I would not describe P&O as brown/gray but instead just gray. If they turn brown there is often some (in my experience) some rust starting and judges will likely view it that way in my experiences
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Some more finishes For the 9/19/68 Metuchen Mach 1 9T108444;
Hood hinges are Phosphate and Oil and are grey to dark grey in color
Hood Hinge Springs are hardened steel. Phosphate and Oil treatment results in a very dark almost black color
The Fender bolts (12), shock tower bolts (12) and hood hinge fender apron bolts(6) are all spec'd Cadmium. I used the CRC Bright Zinc aerosol to get that dull silver color.
The Hood hinge to hood bolts (4) are a Phosphate and Oil and are very dark in color.
Coil bracket is Phosphate and Oil and is grey to dark grey in color
Shock Tower Caps (2) are Phosphate and Oil. Grey to dark grey in color.
Shock tower cap Bolts (4) are Clear Zinc and bright silver in color
Shock Tower Caps Carriage bolts (6) and Nuts (6) are Phosphate Treated and are very dark almost black in color
These treatment and finish colors are a compilation of the previous discussions, photographs and research by the participating Forum members in this thread/topic. Take a look and point out any errors or mistakes ? Thanks, Brian