ConcoursMustang Forums
General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: 9F94M567042 on June 09, 2016, 08:35:06 PM
-
Hi Everyone,
First off let me apologize if this has been discuss before. I did not do a search to find out. Also, if it has, please point me to the area it would be in so I may read about it.
Anyway, I would like to know what the folks here consider a 'Numbers Matching Car' I'm sure there are many opinions on this, but I'm just curious what others think.
For example, what besides the obvious, (engine, transmission, rear axle) what other parts would have date codes?
Thanks Again,
-
We had a similar discussion long ago on another site (read BCMF - Before ConcoursMustang Forum;) and the answers were varied as they are when you ask people what "restored" (for example) means
Some years it's more difficult to confirm "matching numbers" than other years since we don't have access to the real build/completion dates for all years and plants
In general my definition for "matching numbers" is that EVERYTHING that has a date code, VIN, option, color and accessory is as it was on the day it was either delivered to the dealership or sold to the first buyer. If sold condition was different it must be supported by the original paperwork confirming the additions and I have to be convinced the supporting documents are real. Confirmation of date codes is more of a level of comfort. Dates are a reasonable period prior to the completion date and in the range of other cars built the same day or week. with reasonable expectations.
There are always what if's and other things to mention but attempted to keep my definition short and less like a legal document ::)
Just one opinion
-
Here's a great video from our friends at West Coast Classic Cougar which discusses all different parts which must be considered in making the determination of whether a car is a "matching numbers" car.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BxWh6R6OyUA (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BxWh6R6OyUA)
-
In general my definition for "matching numbers" is that EVERYTHING that has a date code, VIN, option, color and accessory is as it was on the day it was either delivered to the dealership or sold to the first buyer.
Just one opinion
Personally, I consider Jeff's version of "matching numbers" to be the highest end of the definition of the term: Every / All possible numbers on all components match up with the original production dates and VIN, and everything is the right color / trim as it left the factory.
My own definition is a bit more relaxed. I consider "numbers matching" to mean ALL of the VIN-stamped components match the VIN of the vehicle. Those items can never truly be replaced (yes, yes, an exact duplicate VIN-stamped component can be created, but it will never be the true original correct factory piece). Dated items, color, options and trim can be replaced or duplicated.
-
.............. Dated items, color, options and trim can be replaced or duplicated.
Mike just for discussion and maybe clarification (of my post not yours ;) does your definition allow for adding or subtracting options/ accessories or a color change?
-
My own definition is a bit more relaxed. I consider "numbers matching" to mean ALL of the VIN-stamped components match the VIN of the vehicle. Those items can never truly be replaced (yes, yes, an exact duplicate VIN-stamped component can be created, but it will never be the true original correct factory piece). Dated items, color, options and trim can be replaced or duplicated.
That might be a good definition for the later cars, but it won't help much for the early cars. With the exception of the K Code cars, the only VIN stampings on a 65-66 will be on the fender apron and door tag. Additionally, the early cars don't have the benefit of a Marti Report to verify options and equipment. If you are trying to figure out the authenticity of an early car, you are going to be forced to look at date codes on different parts to make a determination on originality.
-
That might be a good definition for the later cars, but it won't help much for the early cars. -- you are going to be forced to look at date codes on different parts to make a determination on originality.
Which can turn into a two edged sword.
Jim
-
With the exception of the K Code cars, the only VIN stampings on a 65-66 will be on the fender apron and door tag. Additionally, the early cars don't have the benefit of a Marti Report to verify options and equipment. If you are trying to figure out the authenticity of an early car, you are going to be forced to look at date codes on different parts to make a determination on originality.
Many examples of Metuchen K cars not receiving a VIN stamp on the block or transmission. On the other hand, it is common to find build sheets and buck tags on Metuchen cars which help to document how those cars were built and a close idea to when.
As others have said, all dates should fall within a reasonable time period and engine parts including block, heads, intake and exhaust manifolds, distributor and carb should have dates prior to the engine assembly date.
-
Here's a great video from our friends at West Coast Classic Cougar which discusses all different parts which must be considered in making the determination of whether a car is a "matching numbers" car.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BxWh6R6OyUA (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BxWh6R6OyUA)
As first post here I thought I should put a pic up on how it looks now after its restoration at KTL.
-
Mike just for discussion and maybe clarification (of my post not yours ;) does your definition allow for adding or subtracting options/ accessories or a color change?
My personal definition is that "numbers matching" only applies to the VIN stamped drivetrain & body components. Options and accessories and paint can be fixed / replaced / removed / restored - I classify those item as "factory correct" (or not). If I read the words "factory correct" in a description of the drivetrain then I figure the engine / trans / whatever have been replaced at some time with a duplicate of what it had when it left the factory. It is no longer "numbers matching" but is still a "factory correct" drivetrain.
*Edit: As for the older cars without VIN stamped drivetrain... Without an actual VIN stamp, then in my mind the date and casting details become the "numbers" that would need to be "matched" to the car's build date / configuration.