ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Body, Paint & Sealers => Topic started by: Murf on May 07, 2013, 03:17:21 PM
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While examining the underside images from Dudley it is obvious that the fuel line and fuel line protector were installed after the blackout paint was applied. Guess this happened in the paint area before the shell moved along to have any other components installed? I had never given any thought to when the blackout was applied and was surprised. The images were from a San Jose car in 1968. Just wanted to mention this fact. Somehow I had pictured this blackout being applied later in the build and want to thank Dudley for the informative image.
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John - sorry for the earlier posts - too much meds, too many post or too little sleep. :(
Won't touch the too old thing :)
Dudley's car is very nice and hopefully we'll both get to see it at a show in the future.
Planning on visiting a yard later this week - will pay some extra attention to those inside seat anchor sealant - since your going deep on your car.
Just have to remember to take the spray bolt and some extra rags
To help other viewers here is the picture I believe best shows what John was referring to above
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/ConcoursMustang/Dudleyundercarriagefllordrain664_zpseaef9597.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/ConcoursMustang/Dudleyundercarriagefllordrain664_zpseaef9597.jpg.html)
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I was just looking at my 67 original pinch weld blackout and was wondering how they got such a straight line on the rocker panel. ??? What was the technique to apply the blackout and was it common to all plants?
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I was just looking at my 67 original pinch weld blackout and was wondering how they got such a straight line on the rocker panel. ??? What was the technique to apply the blackout and was it common to all plants?
Have "discussed" the subject with an engineer from the NJ plant but what they were designing never got applied at the plant. Never found one of the workers, yet, that did the job at San Jose or Dearborn but have a visit coming up that might provide an real response. Until that it appears from the evidence it was a mask that was held in place by a worker (main section from front wheelwell to rear wheel opening) while the paint was being applied and from the rear wheel well to rear valance it may have been a hand held mask since we've got a fair number of those examples that travel up the outer surface of the quarter panel rather than staying below. The longer mask may have been hung from above and swung into place during use.
Would have thought that this step might have been automated like the floor pan paint/primer application but the results appear to be different enough for this to not be the answer. Might have been a good idea for the long section but would create a challenge for the rear section IMHO but we'll ask and see what we find out. ;)
Black paint overspray coated any panel that hung down (front frame rail, torque box, convertible seat support....) either a little or allot depending on the angle. In addition blow out into the rear wheelwell (front and rear) was typical as the gun stopped flowing at the front of the wheel well and started again at the rear
IF the pinch weld black out was missed or not done for another reason the paint brush and coffee can of black paint was put to use. We it it pop up from time to time in different years at different plants to make "things" disappear ;)
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Good info. Keep us posted if you learn anything new. Here's an example of the pinchweld blackout on my 67 Fairlane which is similar to what is on my 67 Mustang ( I need to get a close up of the Mustang).
The edge doesn't look sprayed, doesn't look painted. ???
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Good info. Keep us posted if you learn anything new. Here's an example of the pinchweld blackout on my 67 Fairlane which is similar to what is on my 67 Mustang ( I need to get a close up of the Mustang).
The edge doesn't look sprayed, doesn't look painted. ???
Looks like a very close gun - like allot of the "overspray area" we see on some cars. The brushed - looks brushed IMHO
Looks like the paint dried quickly
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Trying to stay with 68 San Jose for the OP and because I've just got too many pictures of these from all years.
Here are a few examples of the rear close/ different angle and a lower angle
In this one the body color barely shows up under the black on the torque box
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/68%20SJ/8R01C138505under7_zps72c7038d.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/68%20SJ/8R01C138505under7_zps72c7038d.jpg.html)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/68%20SJ/8R01C139316-Pinch-0010_zps4f228add.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/68%20SJ/8R01C139316-Pinch-0010_zps4f228add.jpg.html)
Much wider pattern
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/68%20SJ/8R01C139316-Under-0032_zps8d9925c4.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/68%20SJ/8R01C139316-Under-0032_zps8d9925c4.jpg.html)
And a couple of close up of the edge - of course this is after allot of years
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/68%20SJ/Pinchartrearww_zps2df4a948.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/68%20SJ/Pinchartrearww_zps2df4a948.jpg.html)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/68%20SJ/PinchweldBO_zps8d163557.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/68%20SJ/PinchweldBO_zps8d163557.jpg.html)
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Those sharp edges look familiar. :) Now how did they do them?
Lots of variation when it comes to the amount of over spray. Love the one with all of the runs! Never saw one like that before. Would hate to try to duplicate that! ;D
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Those sharp edges look familiar. :) Now how did they do them?
Not really "sharp" but more IMHO rounded and soft. Restorers get the idea of "sharp" then want to start taping with tape :( Others are "softer" especially when the angle changes. Will look for a couple (along with a brushed example) and post later
Thought I covered the current belief in my post above
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You did, I guess IMHO I just see more of a 'sharp' edge, especially on the first picture of the pinch weld black out you posted.
In that picture the sharp, but jagged edge, looks like some of my masking tape results. ;)
I'll check out my 67 in more detail today.
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Keep in mind the sharp edge could be the picture playing tricks, could be a shadow cast from the rocker molding due to the angle of the camera... just something to consider.
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Also consider that after all these years, on an original car, they have been cleaned (in many cases) and polished ALLOT of times, which removes the lighter stuff. Find this on the transition area in the engine compartment where the owners have cleaned them to the point where the softer/lighter paint edge is now stronger and has moved a few inches where the small panel is now void of any black
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From today's little trip - More closeups and today cars that haven't been detailed - heck they have been even washed in years, other than my spray bottle and quick wipe. Another look at that edge. All examples today - 66 San Jose
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/66%20SJ/6R07C171xxxpinch_zpsfe451206.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/66%20SJ/6R07C171xxxpinch_zpsfe451206.jpg.html)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/66%20SJ/Pinchweldcliose2_zps7b7ccadc.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/66%20SJ/Pinchweldcliose2_zps7b7ccadc.jpg.html)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/66%20SJ/Pinchweldcliose_zps803d6405.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/Original%20Uni-body%20%20Pictures/66%20SJ/Pinchweldcliose_zps803d6405.jpg.html)
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Is there any evidence that states all cars or only some cars received the rocker blackout? If only some
is it only lighter colored cars?
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Most of the darker color cars I've seen didn't have pinch well black out. (IE) Raven Black, Caspian Blue, and Ivy Green come to mind. I have owned three 1966 Ivy Green Mustangs in my lifetime and the pinch wells weren't painted.
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This has been my experience, but I wondered if there was supporting data to explicitly say which cars get it.
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Is there any evidence that states all cars or only some cars received the rocker blackout? If only some
is it only lighter colored cars?
Yes there is evidence of what was done at most factories and years
It was thought at one time all years and plants did not apply the pinch weld blackout on dark colored cars but findings on many dark color cars (across the years and plants) have lead many of us to change that opinion as it can not longer be supported. At the same time, at a show, a dark colored car would likely not be deducted for not having pinch weld blacked out pinch weld and the related overspray - IMHO more so on early Dearborn and NJ cars.
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Yes there is evidence of what was done at most factories and years
It was thought at one time all years and plants did not apply the pinch weld blackout on dark colored cars but findings on many dark color cars (across the years and plants) have lead many of us to change that opinion as it can not longer be supported. At the same time, at a show, a dark colored car would likely not be deducted for not having pinch weld blacked out pinch weld and the related overspray - IMHO more so on early Dearborn and NJ cars.
+ 1 . Just to add a slight clarification to Jeff's post for those reading .Yes there is explicate instructions which can be seen in the assemblyline manuals but personal observations in the real world by many competent eyes contradict the instructions. There are many other examples of things that were meant to be done a certain way by Ford that were in fact not done exactly the expected way. Reasonable judging takes these things into consideration given the circumstances. We are still learning and still evolving with a positive direction in mind.
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Judging. I know it's difficult for an owner and for a judge. There are differences between years (65 and 66, 67 and 68, etc), differences in body styles, differences between plants, differences in months, differences in shifts, difference in workers - all this to be crunched into "judging". On this particular subject, there is no direct mention of "pinch weld" in MCA judging criteria that I can find. It's a "judgment" call in a general catch all statement. MCA supposedly judges Mustangs to a standard, but if one does not exist for a particular area, in this case pinch welds, how can you make a call? How can you say, white car - painted pinch weld, black car - no paint? Just because "you" know, how does an owner "know"? What ever conclusion that is made on this subject or any subject on this forum has absolutely no bearing on an MCA judge's decision, they have a judging sheet, not a laptop. It's nice information to know on what subjects are discussed. I usually check to see if my cars conform, but if it's not on the MCA judge's sheets, it don't count.
My conclusion - expand and modify the judging sheets, as if that suggestion hasn't already been tried.
Jim
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pinchwelds are mentioned in undercarriage section....section B.
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I would like to thank you all for taking your own time to answer my question and offer up information and advice. I have a 67 Dearborn Fastback that is Clearwater Aqua that I have owned for 30 years, so I really wondered if it would be consider a light colored car or not, and have the blacked out rockers. But there is more to my curiosity I must admit. I am a Fairlane Club of America Tech adviser and we have changed our judging substantially over the years looking for a model that closely aligns with the Mustang Club of American. Most of our cars that are white absolutely have the blacked out rockers from 67-69, but other colors there is no set answer. We do know that ALL Talladegas had blacked out rockers and they are not all light colored cars. But they do all have worked over rockers. Like the previous posted stated, when clear evidence is not available we must defer to what documentation the owner can supply to support its originality. For us, there is way to much of that going on because of our lack of knowledge. So again, thanks for your help and support as I attempt to keep my Mustang looking like it did when the factory manufactured it. And the additional insight I gain into other models produced by ford.
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pinchwelds are mentioned in undercarriage section....section B.
+ 1 It is definitely mentioned in the MCA Judging rules.
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pinchwelds are mentioned in undercarriage section....section B.
"Mentioned" is not defining, and the reference is to overspray. Just by that simple word, all cars are required to have a painted pinch weld.
Jim
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........but if it's not on the MCA judge's sheets, it don't count.
Completely incorrect. Judges have been instructed many times that they are NOT limited by the judging written rules (read can take off for details not included).
The written rules are there as a description of some of the items to check in that section, major items, items that are often overlooked (rear reminder) or details that are new to the community.
As mentioned before the number of pages limits and keep MCA from including everything that should be looked at and evaluated in any section . We can't put a description for 10% of all the details, like what is pinchweld and any one judging for MCA in a concours class should know what it means - if not that is why we have teams not individuals judging IMHO
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............... We do know that ALL Talladegas had blacked out rockers and they are not all light colored cars. But they do all have worked over rockers. Like the previous posted stated, when clear evidence is not available we must defer to what documentation the owner can supply to support its originality. For us, there is way to much of that going on because of our lack of knowledge. .................
Will report that all of the Ranchero's and Torino's I've owned over the years (68-72) had blacked out pinch welds like the Mustang. Would assume that they were done for the same reason that Mustangs were done - especially since they were more expensive cars. Think the Talladegas being done goes a long way towards supporting that also since they were painted by the same workers and followed the same process (though the rockers and related panels were held and welded in different jig than the Torino's
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Completely incorrect. Judges have been instructed many times that they are NOT limited by the judging written rules (read can take off for details not included).
The written rules are there as a description of some of the items to check in that section, major items, items that are often overlooked (rear reminder) or details that are new to the community.
As mentioned before the number of pages limits and keep MCA from including everything that should be looked at and evaluated in any section . We can't put a description for 10% of all the details, like what is pinchweld and any one judging for MCA in a concours class should know what it means - if not that is why we have teams not individuals judging IMHO
Jeff very well stated and this information has been stated many times before on this very forum.