ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1969 Mustang => Topic started by: DEWilson on September 20, 2016, 06:17:32 PM
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69 mach 1 NJ built car with the black color interior for the headliner what is the correct color is it black black or is it charcoal black like the dash paint i have gotten two differant headliner one from distive industry is black but the headliner i got from Scott drake is more like the charcol black color and look wrong in color but is it so what one is correct !
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It should be black...I ordered new sail panels form NPD (Scott Drake) that were charcoal and had to dye them black. I contacted SD and all they could tell me was "that's what our supplier uses". Good luck :)
TOB
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The correct headliner material is "moonskin".
I bought it off the roll years ago from an upholstery shop to repro my own sail panels.
You could always try and find a vintage material sample or check out a car with the original headliner.
The color under the rear windshield rubber will not be faded.
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It should be black...I ordered new sail panels form NPD (Scott Drake) that were charcoal and had to dye them black. I contacted SD and all they could tell me was "that's what our supplier uses". Good luck :)
TOB
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i have learn that scott drake don't really care if stuff is truly correct i see that the sail panel that have are not black so going to fix them too
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I used a heat gun to remove the charcoal material from the sail panel backing and then glued the correct black moonskin material that matched my headliner to the panels. I also found that the trim rings for the courtesy lights are too thick and if possible, you should try to save your original courtesy light trim rings and use them as well. These can be removed and reused if you are careful. They will get dinged up a bit but you'll never see them with the lights installed.
It should be black...I ordered new sail panels form NPD (Scott Drake) that were charcoal and had to dye them black. I contacted SD and all they could tell me was "that's what our supplier uses". Good luck :)
TOB
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I also found that the trim rings for the courtesy lights are too thick and if possible, you should try to save your original courtesy light trim rings and use them as well. These can be removed and reused if you are careful. They will get dinged up a bit but you'll never see them with the lights installed.
I dealt with this also on my '69, though I didn't discover it until the headliner was already in and the rear window had been reinstalled. I ended up having to cut some of the retainers off of the courtesy light housings before they would snap in place. Otherwise, there's no way the courtesy light would have snapped in place without completely destroying the sail panels by pushing on them.
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OK, I am here to set this story straight.
There is not nor has there ever been a charcoal gray colored headliner than came from Scott Drake. They manufacture their headliners in house using material they source. If someone received a charcoal headliner in a Scott Drake box it was placed there after it left the Drake facility. I have been assured by them that this is a fact.
I was asked by a salesperson, for a customer, if we were aware of black headliners not all being black. I told them that I am aware of variations but not anything that it would cause me concern. What was conveyed afterwards I cannot say. Dye lot variations exist and it is a fact of life. It has never, in my experience with the Drake headliners I have observed, risen to a point where they were no longer black enough.
With that said I did discover that back in 2014 and early 2015, Distinctive, who produces the Scott Drake metal ringed sail panels under contract, did produce some of Drake’s sail panels using their (Distinctive’s) charcoal material. They are the only ones known to have had this incorrect shade material. I cannot say if they still have it as they are not my supplier of moonskin anything and not a concern for me at this point. Drake was not able to figure out to whom these all went out to and they were taking care of anyone that contacted them with this issue. I was oblivious to their existence until today. We have found several sets still on the shelves and are in the process of returning them.
Regards,
Scott
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With that said I did discover that back in 2014 and early 2015, Distinctive, who produces the Scott Drake metal ringed sail panels under contract, did produce some of Drake’s sail panels using their (Distinctive’s) charcoal material.
FYI my invoice for the black (charcoal) sail panels was dated 3/18/2015.
TOB
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Thanks Scott for responding to the post
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this is what i am looking at on the headliners bottom one is the old one the next one is the black scott drake replacement one, then the next one up is a black one from ditive ind then the one on top is the 2nd scott drake one both scott are call black but they look gray in color
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Shades of black is pretty tough to discern from a photo on a computer screen. My headliner and sail panels are OE and I think there is room for ' gray ' in the description. Definitely not a deep or midnight black and certainly no room for any shades of brown. Thoughtfull of Scott from NPD to add some insight to the conversation. Brian
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headliners in 69/70 were, what I call more Charcoal than black. A black headliner and sail panels would never match the rest of the interior. I have a 16 thousand mile Mach that has not been outside in the sun for 42 years and the sail panels and headliner are not black and match the original Lacquer painted rear panels. JMO Good Luck!
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Many of you guys are way more knowledgeable than me on these cars but I have hundreds of photos from a sub-100 mile Dearborn Mach 1 that is well known and the headliner in that car is clearly more black than charcoal and does not match the interior panels. Attached are two photos of the interior of that car. While not NOS, I also have a new in box headliner from Colamco ('70's vintage from what I can tell) and that material matches the headliner color in the attached photos almost exactly. I did use a flash for these photos and I appreciate the flash can wash out the color a bit but you can see a clear difference between the headliner/sail panel and the interior panels.
headliners in 69/70 were, what I call more Charcoal than black. A black headliner and sail panels would never match the rest of the interior. I have a 16 thousand mile Mach that has not been outside in the sun for 42 years and the sail panels and headliner are not black and match the original Lacquer painted rear panels. JMO Good Luck!
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That's a good shot Bobs car. Maybe it is the flash. But I still feel they were not as black as what has been described. I have a picture somewhere of a headliner that was installed that is very black and the original sunvisors do not match. I'll see if I can find it. The sail panels were repo and did not match the headliner. It was obvious without the flash. Good discussion.
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headliners in 69/70 were, what I call more Charcoal than black. A black headliner and sail panels would never match the rest of the interior. I have a 16 thousand mile Mach that has not been outside in the sun for 42 years and the sail panels and headliner are not black and match the original Lacquer painted rear panels. JMO Good Luck!
'69 Shelby 2060 (4/7/69 Dearborn) had true black headliner and sail panels. Maybe what you are seeing is the variations in suppliers and/or dye lots.
TOB
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You're right Armond - that is Bob's car. I also have photos of another low mileage '69 SCJ that Bob has and it also shows a darker color sail panel/headliner as compared to the side panels. I do wonder if there might be a supplier and/or lot variation as noted by tobkob. The cars I am restoring are both Dearborn cars with dates around that of Bob's car so we opted to go with the black (vs. charcoal) headliner/sail panel combo. My original visors are still usable (hopefully) and they seem to match the headliner (although not exact).
I agree good discussion. I spent many hours researching this a few years back when trying to decide what headliner/sail panel combo to put in my cars (finally resolved in my case by visiting Bob's shop). As noted in an earlier post, I had to recover new sail panels as I could not purchase any at the time with the black moonskin - and I did work with Scott at NPD to try and source the black sail panels (who was extremely helpful BTW).
That's a good shot Bobs car. Maybe it is the flash. But I still feel they were not as black as what has been described. I have a picture somewhere of a headliner that was installed that is very black and the original sunvisors do not match. I'll see if I can find it. The sail panels were repo and did not match the headliner. It was obvious without the flash. Good discussion.
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I just spent some time trying too dig out the picture I was talking about with no luck. I had a computer loss and my wife saved my pictures on one of those little things you stick into the computer, but I have apparently lost tons of pictures.... I spent hours going over that Mach of Bobs and took at least a hundred pictures.
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I was asked by a salesperson, for a customer, if we were aware of black headliners not all being black. I told them that I am aware of variations but not anything that it would cause me concern. What was conveyed afterwards I cannot say. Dye lot variations exist and it is a fact of life. It has never, in my experience with the Drake headliners I have observed, risen to a point where they were no longer black enough.
I am sorry but dye is like paints, if your getting dye from someone thats making sure there properly mixing with the right amount of pigmet. and then doing testing that the color is a match to your standard then there would not be that much variation. any way the two headliners that came from npd made by scott drake are not black, IMHO it even looks a shade lighter in color when i compair them to some of my newly painted dark charcoal panel.
But anyway it comes down to this... it is when I lay the scott dake headliner on top of the old factory origanal one.. the scott drake part is way to gray in color and i am trying to do it concourse so i have sent the item back to npd and found a correct black moon skin material that matches the factory old headliner , plus the rod pockets on the scott drake item are 3/4 to 1 inch openings and the factory ones are 1/2 inch. really dont need headliner hanging down lower
I thank everyone for their input.
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That is certainly way to Gray!
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That is certainly way to Gray!
That's about the color of the sail panels I received. :(
TOB