ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1967 Mustang => Topic started by: DTruitt on July 29, 2012, 03:59:12 PM
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Yesterday I went to the bone yard and made some observations that were new to me. I've always know about the early 67's having the washer bag vs later 67's having the washer bottle. What I had not previously observed was the different radiator supports. I also observed a very early 67 deluxe hood without the large holes for the wiring harness. Here are a few pictures I snapped.
(http://i47.tinypic.com/1ot0ns.jpg)
7T01C166375, Scheduled 13M
(http://i47.tinypic.com/rs9cmv.jpg)
Early radiator support with oval opening above battery cooling vents.
(http://i49.tinypic.com/23lyyp1.jpg)
Later support with square openings above battery cooling vents.
All of the oval opening radiator supports coincided with the washer bag and the square openings coincided with the washer bottle. I only found the one early deluxe hood without the holes in the underhood support. Has anyone else noted these observations?
Danny
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Besides the early /late things you mentioned there are also interior differences at (least with fastback) ,various suspension ,fuel line ,electrical, brakes,air conditioning, etc. as well. It is just the tip of the iceberg. My main focus is the Shelby fastback and while studying those have found a multitude of differences .There are no doubt many more other differences I am not aware of with the sheet metal parts that were deleted on the Shelby's that are found on regular Mustangs as well as with differences on coupes and convertible models.They were many more running changes in 67 then other years.
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Thanks, Bob. I also noticed an apparent change with the interior mirror from the knob to the flip style day/night mirror. I didn't take any pictures of those though. I guess I go back and look a little harder to see what else I discover. Over the years I've concentrated on the 68 variations!
Danny
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Thanks, Bob. I also noticed an apparent change with the interior mirror from the knob to the flip style day/night mirror. I didn't take any pictures of those though. I guess I go back and look a little harder to see what else I discover. Over the years I've concentrated on the 68 variations!
Danny
Yes, and there are other differences on the interior. The mirror is a later production difference . Others changes occurred at different times like the rad support you noticed. It didn't happen all at the same time. That certainly keeps it interesting to try and figure out :o . Most of the items we will be lucky if we can pin it down to within a few months of the individual change ::) .
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Danny,
I believe the leading reason for the turn signal hood change was because of the 390 motors. Ford found out early that the clips holding the turn signal wiring harness to the hood opened up due to the heat of the motor. Thus the harness would fall out of the clips and onto the top of the engine. When the hood was opened the harness would dangle. That lead to the engineering change to route the winring harness internally to the hood frame (through two large punched holes). The best I have documented this change is that it occurred early January 1967.
As Bob has stated, the 1967 model production had alot of running changes!
Regards,
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Here is a Oct build Metuchen NJ car with the early hood. Note that the wiring is not routed correctly. I should run across the center of the hood under clips where the empty holes are. The green hood is the next version that routed through the hood structure but still used the clips on the center of the hood, this car is a Nov 4th SJ build. Both of these had tar soked cotten brade wire protector. The last version is a 68 July 12th dearborn build but started in late 67. This version no longer used the center clips, but used a adel style clamp undr the housing nuts. It's wire protector was vinyl tubing. Marty
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Marty,
Do you remember if the green car had the metal bulb sockets? With the lighting I can't tell if it has the metal or plastic bulb sockets. Thanks for posting the pictures.
Also does anyone have pictures of the wiring for the hood signals on an early 67 (version 1) "original" unrestored car?
It sometimes amazes me with the number of "rolling" changes Ford made to the Mustang during a single year. It almost seems to be the "norm".
Danny
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Danny the harness is the one that was on the car when we got it and I believe it to be original. The Metuchen cars as #1 seemed to have them. I will have to watch the other plants for the metal sockets. Marty
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Also does anyone have pictures of the wiring for the hood signals on an early 67 (version 1) "original" unrestored car?
I'm finding three versions so far (four with your example)
1- deluxe with no large wire holes in the sub structure
2- standard with no large wire holes in the sub structure
3- deluxe with large wire holes in the sub structure
4- standard with large wire holes in the sub structure
Earliest Dearborn deluxe with large holes I have is a Nov 18th (projected date)
Latest NJ deluxe without large wire holes is a Oct 18th (projected date)
Found it interesting that I could not find a San Jose car with the "early style" hood you showed, but dis find a standard one without the holes (mid Dec PD). Earliest example of the deluxe hood with wire holes had a projected build date of late Aug 66.
Guess we can do a survey on the hood and the bulb socket detail if you want to chase this one. Don't have pictures of every bottom of the hood but thing I can contribute a few data points :)
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Car below - projected date of Nov 28th - NJ. Routing in the one area differs from the first one Marty posted. Since that one is restored I would if it might be a composite - a little bit of early - a little bit late. One would think that they designed the holes across the support were design to be used as in the pictures below - for attaching the clips. Marty's first example has an extra retainer between the two turn indicators when compared to the others
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/67%20Mustang/7T02T155894hoodtrunwireroute2.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/67%20Mustang/7T02T1558xxhoodtrunwireroute.jpg)
Note - changed title of thread to reflect the hood specific discussion ;)
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Jeff, thanks for posting the pictures. The discussion didn't start specific to hoods, but has evolved that way! I'd like to see more pictures of the 67 hoods now that this discussion has started.
Marty, thanks for your pictures too! I've only seen your '67 in pictures, you need to bring that one EAST next time you are out this way!
Danny
P.S. I added the VIN and scheduled date of the car the hood was from in my original post.
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Jeff your example is the correct wire routing. I deducted a point on the #1 red hood for the mix of styles. And I all ways thought the early hoods used the same clips all the way, unlike what he did. Another little detail is on the first hoods that were drilled like my green one they used grommet in the holes because the edges were sharp. The latter version had the edges rolled so there was no need for the grommets. I like these discussions they help us all. Marty
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...........The latter version had the edges rolled so there was no need for the grommets. I like these discussions they help us all. Marty
So Marty - 6 versions??
Going to be difficult to pick that detail out (the rolled edge to the large holes) in a picture
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Marty, thanks for your pictures too! I've only seen your '67 in pictures, you need to bring that one EAST next time you are out this way
Stop here on you way to or from the Grand National in Mustang OK. We have plenty of extra rooms. You can check out all of the cars. I got the 68 HCS home Sunday. Marty
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Jeff,
Yes 6 it is possible allthough I have not payed too much attention to the structure of the flat hoods. Do not see too many on the show field. Marty
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I'd like to see more pictures of the 67 hoods now that this discussion has started.
Here's one from my 67 Dearborn car. Feb 08 build date. 39,000 miles so my guess is it's all original.
Has just the right amount of 'patina'. ;)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-cC9wlcuSudQ/UBlIemhGEHI/AAAAAAAADg4/HpQg3MFj-OE/s640/2011-07-04_50.JPG)
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Here is a flat hood from a NJ 15K mile coupe 7T01C149061 (vin hard to read last 3 letters). Looks like no hole, but darn I wish I had taken more pictures.
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Here is a Oct build Metuchen NJ car with the early hood. Note that the wiring is not routed correctly. I should run across the center of the hood under clips where the empty holes are. The green hood is the next version that routed through the hood structure but still used the clips on the center of the hood, this car is a Nov 4th SJ build. Both of these had tar soked cotten brade wire protector. The last version is a 68 July 12th dearborn build but started in late 67. This version no longer used the center clips, but used a adel style clamp undr the housing nuts. It's wire protector was vinyl tubing. Marty
I'm trying to get a closer look at this hood wiring and clips.
...and to verify if we know if this arrangement is "as it should be" for a Nov. 4th SJ?
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I can assure your that it is correct for a 11-04-66 SJ build. If you need more detailed pics just ask.
Marty
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Here are better details of 11-04-66 SJ early hood wire retainers. One is centered on the hood and the one to the left is 4 inches, the one to the right is 4 inches and the one to the furthest right is 4.25.
Hope this helps
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Here are better details of 11-04-66 SJ early hood wire retainers. One is centered on the hood and the one to the left is 4 inches, the one to the right is 4 inches and the one to the furthest right is 4.25.
Hope this helps
Yes it does help tremendously...now to run down a few clips...
Does anybody have any crunched or rusted out hoods we can extract a few out of?
Richard
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Jim Chism has made reproductions that he sell for $15 or $20 each. I have not had a lot of luck collecting originals with out breaking them.
Marty
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JIm Chism? Does anybody have any contact info on him?
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Here's the hood on my Metuchen '67, built Dec. 66 The wire harness clips have been painted over, but are still all there:
(http://i.imgur.com/i8RekSv.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/YiNOBOx.jpg)
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Yesterday I went to the bone yard and made some observations that were new to me. I've always know about the early 67's having the washer bag vs later 67's having the washer bottle. What I had not previously observed was the different radiator supports. I also observed a very early 67 deluxe hood without the large holes for the wiring harness. Here are a few pictures I snapped.
(http://i47.tinypic.com/rs9cmv.jpg)
Early radiator support with oval opening above battery cooling vents.
(http://i49.tinypic.com/23lyyp1.jpg)
Later support with square openings above battery cooling vents.
All of the oval opening radiator supports coincided with the washer bag and the square openings coincided with the washer bottle. I only found the one early deluxe hood without the holes in the underhood support. Has anyone else noted these observations?
Danny
FYI the oval vs. square openings in the radiator support are for Cougar headlight bracket mounting.
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Here is a picture of the clips that Jim had reproduced:
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JIm Chism? Does anybody have any contact info on him?
Found a web site with some contact info
http://www.atlantamotorsportspark.com/events/music-city-mustand-club-may-23-2014/ (http://www.atlantamotorsportspark.com/events/music-city-mustand-club-may-23-2014/)
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Found a web site with some contact info
http://www.atlantamotorsportspark.com/events/music-city-mustand-club-may-23-2014/ (http://www.atlantamotorsportspark.com/events/music-city-mustand-club-may-23-2014/)
I DID get hold of Jim this morning and in an earlier post, I showed a picture of the clips he had made up.
Marty's car's (green hood) build date is 2 days after mine, also a SJ car. I assume then I need to get a total of 4 of these clips since my wires should go down the holes and across the hood structure as Marty's green hood has.
The curious thing I see is that other hoods all have only 3 clips or holes for the clips. (red hood, cream colored Feb 67 Dearborn, even the first example in the OP's example, all have only 3) Does anybody have other examples that have the 4 clips or 4 holes for the clips in the hood inner structure?
Richard
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Here's the hood on my Metuchen '67, built Dec. 66 The wire harness clips have been painted over, but are still all there:
(http://i.imgur.com/i8RekSv.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/YiNOBOx.jpg)
If that is the original hood Metuchen was still using the un drilled early version.
Marty
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If that is the original hood Metuchen was still using the un drilled early version.
Marty
Marty, I'm fairly certain that is the original hood for the car. It's definitely rusty enough inside to be!
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I found this drawing of a early 67 hood with all of the harness on the out side held with 7 of the 373202S clips.
I also took this picture of the Chism reproduction next to the original and it is pretty close.
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I also took this picture of the Chism reproduction next to the original and it is pretty close.
Those reproductions look fine to me. That's probably as good as it's going to get for such a small-demand item. I bet once the clips are gone, most people don't even know they're missing.
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My car has the 4 holes in the bottom of the hood. I am still looking for the clips to hold the wiring for the turn signals in salvage yards.
John
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The curious thing I see is that other hoods all have only 3 clips or holes for the clips. (red hood, cream colored Feb 67 Dearborn, even the first example in the OP's example, all have only 3) Does anybody have other examples that have the 4 clips or 4 holes for the clips in the hood inner structure?
Richard
Richard, I ran across one in Colorado last month with four clips. VIN 7R01C157328. The first picture shows the left three. The second picture the right two. Sorry but no single pic of all four, but you can see what is going on.
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4 it is, I just got the set of 4 clips in the mail today too :) I was planning on doing the 4, it just also helps to see other examples too.
John, did the harness down at the bottom have the braided covering? It's a bit hard to tell in the picture.
Thanks a lot! My next step is to assemble an early type harness using a later type (that has the plastic sleeve) so I'm beginning now to look for wiring harness examples. I haven't found a reproduction that resembles the earlier type yet.
Richard
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More pics
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Found another similar hood with the four clips - but don't have the VIN for this one.
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My hood has also 4 holes, but the left and right hole are far more positioned than the 2 in the middle.
As you can see, there are only 2 clips in the middle.
Pretty sure that the hood is quite original ::)
My car came with the exterior and interior decor group equipment.
Jeroen
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Jeroen, thanks for the picture - very interesting.
Can you add some close up pictures of:
1. The plastic clip
2. The harness between the firewall and hood
3. The holes where the hood would hang when painted at the factory (see pic #1 below)
Question - are the large holes where the wiring would run folded over, or not? You can tell by touch (see pic #2 below)
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I suspect that you have a newer hood harness and that is why the wire would be too short for the other two clips.
Marty
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Hello John,
I hope that the pictures are the ones that you wanted/needed.
If needed something else (because I didn't understand it that good, ... just ask :)
The question I ask myself is if my 2 clips are right? Or do I need 4?
It seems untouched over all those years???
I certainly see/know that those 4 holes are made in 67??
What now?
Kind regards,
Jeroen
PS Hope that Thanksgiving day for you all was a nice family moment ;)
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Jeroen,
The details of your hood have me confused. If you look at Drummingrocks picture on page 2 "Here's the hood on my Metuchen '67, built Dec. 66" you will notice the same two holes used as yours along with the tightly stretched wire (reminds me of Tommy Boy in a little coat). But that is an "early" hood without the two large holes to run the wire through - the wire runs through clamps under the hood.
Your hood has the early feature of four small holes across the brace for clamps, but the non-early large holes for the wire.
I have not seen that combination yet. I'm not saying it is not original though. Two things I can think of that can help:
1. Figure out if the large holes are punched flat or punched and rolled over. The roll over can be felt with a finger and is about 3/6" over. The "middle" hood was punched flat and protected with plastic grommets, while the "later" hood was rolled over.
2. Provide the date stamp from the hood.
Thanksgiving was great - had left overs today and they were just as good as the first item around. Thanks for asking.
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Hello John,
I hope that the pictures are the ones that you wanted/needed.
If needed something else (because I didn't understand it that good, ... just ask :)
The question I ask myself is if my 2 clips are right? Or do I need 4?
It seems untouched over all those years???
I certainly see/know that those 4 holes are made in 67??
What now?
I do not know what to think now, It appears that you have a older style harness. The hole on the far left in the picture is too far left, It really makes no sense. I guess I would leave it as it is till we find more information.
Marty
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Probably a stupid question... but where do I find the date stamp on the hood?
I will take a picture of it this evening.
Thanks,
Jeroen
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Probably a stupid question... but where do I find the date stamp on the hood?
I will take a picture of it this evening.
Thanks,
Jeroen
I believe it is supposed to be on the inner structure of the hood, like somewhat near the hood hinge but I have two hoods here that I have scanned over (somewhat quickly) and not yet found the stamping(s). Hopefully somebody can clarify things better and we both find our date stamping. It is always possible the stampings are so lightly imprinted they were covered in paint/primer, therefore difficult to see...but OE hoods will certainly have them.
(Oh, and Jeroen...I haven't forgot you about those seat parts...been crazy at work, much overtime and not much "other" time in my day...even today, I go to work on my plow truck "FrankenDODGE", who needs more work to get through yet another winter)
Richard
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No problem, Richard. Thanks for replying.
Can somebody confirm that the hood stamping is near the hood springs area?
And is it possible to find it (them?) when the hood is mounted on the hood springs?
Thanks,
Jeroen
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Would more pictures help or just muddy the waters?
No problem, Richard. Thanks for replying.
Can somebody confirm that the hood stamping is near the hood springs area?
And is it possible to find it (them?) when the hood is mounted on the hood springs?
May be filled with primer or filler if work has been done or even a repaint. Never seen them located right where the hood springs attach. Will see if I have a picture or two with the location for a 67 that I can post to help
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-291114173306.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-291114173243.jpeg)
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Probably enough pics already. But, thought I'd throw mine in here.
Metuchen Oct.'66 built. Been in family since '79.
VIN 7T01C1276**
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No problem, Richard. Thanks for replying.
Can somebody confirm that the hood stamping is near the hood springs area?
And is it possible to find it (them?) when the hood is mounted on the hood springs?
Thanks,
Jeroen
Here's the location of the hood date code stamping on my 67 Dearborn car.
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Here's the location of the hood date code stamping on my 67 Dearborn car.
Yes, that is where I now have found my date code(s), both hoods I have are in the same location.
My original hood looks like a date code of October 19 (1966), stamped in Chicago(A), 14 days before actual production date 11/02
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Great! Thanks for the update and build date info.
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67 Mustang 7R01S129XXX Built 10/29/1966. The hood has a date of 10/17 W 3 Photo attached. Those two holes have black plastic wire insulators up in them. Similar to other photos I see here. Turn signal hood matches the Marti report. The date was stamped to the rear of the rearward wire hole, about 2 inches in from the rear of the hood. Seems the dates are stamp whereever they pleased.
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That is very consistent with my 11-04-66 SJ built 67 GTA. Surprisingly my date stamp is 7-21-W3 The details between yours and match right down to the hood light.
Marty
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As promised on 29/11 : I looked and searched for my stamp.
It was like Jeff said, totally filled with primer and paint.
But I can't figure out the exact date :
The first isn't quite Cristal clear, '1' or '4' is my best guess?
than it is a '20'
The next isn't readable at all >:(
The last one is a '3'?
The position where I found it was exactly the same as Rodster and 67gtasanjose
Knowing best that this isn't going to help much people further :-\
Kind regards,
Jeroen
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Glad you found it. Guessing it is 12 20 W3.
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Thanks for the help Rodster!
Just out of curiosity... but was there a 'logical' way for ordering the sheet metals from company 'x' and putting it together in plant 'Y' ??
For example : did a San José car ordered their metal parts in Michigan but not in New York or vice a verse ??
Or was it first comes, first served ;D
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My guess is there was an order in which sheet metal got supplied, but that's a question for the experts.
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Thanks for the help Rodster!
Just out of curiosity... but was there a 'logical' way for ordering the sheet metals from company 'x' and putting it together in plant 'Y' ??
For example : did a San José car ordered their metal parts in Michigan but not in New York or vice a verse ??
Or was it first comes, first served ;D
Keep in mind that assembly plants did not order "sheet" metal, they ordered "stamped" metal in form factors they could use to assemble product. My understanding is that Ford in the 60's was stamping all their parts, and had stamping plants in Dearborn (at the Rouge), Woodhaven (MI), and Buffalo (NY). There might have been more. I have read or found nothing in print in regards to distribution or stamping production practices (i.e. whether stamping was done in batches or virtually continuous). I suppose that for a lower volume car line (Lincolns, Broncos) the batch process would work well, whereas Mustang stampings (and those with shared unibody parts) might not have stopped.
My neighbor growing up was a plant manager at the Chrysler Sterling Stamping Plant, and will ask him when I see him again. Practices were (and still are) very similar between the big three.
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My guess is there was an order in which sheet metal got supplied, but that's a question for the experts.
There likely was the "norm" IMHO and these become apparent once you've collected and compared allot of data, but it was based on ALLOT of details (time period, plant .....) we don't know and that only a few people who's job it was to get the parts there, did.
We see patterns depending on plant, time of year and suppliers but there could, at times, additional parts supplied from other suppliers based on higher demand or other undocumented at this time, issues.
Some stamping plants supplied just panels whole others seemed to supply panels and sub assemblies - one example would be doors, headers and A pillars
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Dredging up the old topic:
This time to ask about information about hood lamp wiring and related hardware.
1.) There were early and LATE wiring to the hood turn signal lamps. Any known change-over approximate date established yet?
2.) The wiring plastic grommets used on the mid-production, before the "rolled edge" openings but after the externally run harness. These are NOT represented in the assembly manuals for the hood. Does anybody have more information about them? (e.g.
engineering or part number) ~for reference only, the trunk light grommet is C4SB-14603-H, is this possibly the same?
3.) Again, I ask about the number of clips shown across the center of the hood. Some have only 3 while some have 4. I cannot verify a pattern yet two San Jose examples, one a few days before my 11/02/66 example (built 10/29) and one a couple days afterwards (11/04) and BOTH look to have the under hood lamp as well. The differences noted are that the 11/04 built example had an older stamping date mentioned. The basic question I have is what would be recommended, do I drill 3 holes or 4 holes for the clips? I need to convert a later style hood.
Richard
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Found some interesting pics on cars for sale on eBay.
First from 7T03C130150, date October 21, 1966, in white; note the "no hole" hood and routing of wiring. Yes someone got a little gung ho with paint, but the clips and routing look correct.
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Here's another "no hole" hood from 7T03S118239
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Dredging up the old topic:
This time to ask about information about hood lamp wiring and related hardware.
1.) There were early and LATE wiring to the hood turn signal lamps. Any known change-over approximate date established yet?
2.) The wiring plastic grommets used on the mid-production, before the "rolled edge" openings but after the externally run harness. These are NOT represented in the assembly manuals for the hood. Does anybody have more information about them? (e.g.
engineering or part number) ~for reference only, the trunk light grommet is C4SB-14603-H, is this possibly the same?
3.) Again, I ask about the number of clips shown across the center of the hood. Some have only 3 while some have 4. I cannot verify a pattern yet two San Jose examples, one a few days before my 11/02/66 example (built 10/29) and one a couple days afterwards (11/04) and BOTH look to have the under hood lamp as well. The differences noted are that the 11/04 built example had an older stamping date mentioned. The basic question I have is what would be recommended, do I drill 3 holes or 4 holes for the clips? I need to convert a later style hood.
Richard
Richard, as for item 1, the "early" style had two narrow posts - with an hourglass shape for lack of a better term. Later models were wider, the same width from top to bottom. Probably redesigned to reduce the problem with broken posts.
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7R03A206*** with a 08E plate date had a type 3 deluxe with large hole.