ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1968 Mustang => Topic started by: bullitt68 on February 26, 2024, 01:39:38 AM
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Looking for some guidance and confirmation regarding these Lower Radiator Support Brackets.
First question: Were the bolts painted with the brackets or installed after paint? ASM indicates "S" finish, so no finish on the bolts, which would lead me to believe the bolts painted with brackets, but just want to double check.
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-260224003204-201522418.jpeg)
Second Question: Were the brackets installed on the chasis before or after paint?
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-260224003203-201501466.jpeg)
Third Question:
Do these look like original brackets and do they look bent, or is this how they should look?
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-260224003203-201482335.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-260224003203-201481325.jpeg)
Question Four:
Which bolt head pattern is correct. I am going to assume the fasteners that are on the right, that were on the car. The ones on the left are from the AMK Concourse Correct kit.
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-260224003202-20142665.jpeg)
Question Five:
Is this a correct Radiator Petcock for my manual trans
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-260224003201-201402398.jpeg)
Just a note regarding the rubber insulators. This product does not fit and cannot be used.
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-260224003203-201462110.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-260224003202-201441987.jpeg)
These insulators fit correctly
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-260224003202-20144481.jpeg)
Thanks
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Yes, they appear to be bent. I have had no issues with the SD lower insulators. It maybe because your brackets are bent.
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Brackets installed after body was painted. Bolts are not painted
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Just for clarification the brackets are typically semi gloss black and the bolts unpainted.
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Once mounted I trust your intuition will guide you on what is bent and what is not.
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Just picking a few from todays long list
Question Five:
Is this a correct Radiator Petcock for my manual trans
Peacock for all (auto and manual) radiators are the same
Just a note regarding the rubber insulators. This product does not fit and cannot be used.
If you can find better insulators for the bottom brackets or nice originals you could always cut and remove a section of the insulator along the bottom (as one end would likely not show) and use a little adhesive to attach the two sections to the bracket. Don't use enough adhesive so that it shows when done
But it appears that you found a better replacement and by posting hopefully saved someone else from purchase the poorly made or labeled ones
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Maybe these will help
From the same late San Jose car like yours
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/6-260224153250-201552126.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/6-260224153252-20156489.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/6-260224153249-2015469.jpeg)
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Brackets installed after body was painted. Bolts are not painted
Great thanks appreciate it
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Just for clarification the brackets are typically semi gloss black and the bolts unpainted.
Thanks Bob
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Just picking a few from todays long list
Peacock for all (auto and manual) radiators are the same
If you can find better insulators for the bottom brackets or nice originals you could always cut and remove a section of the insulator along the bottom (as one end would likely not show) and use a little adhesive to attach the two sections to the bracket. Don't use enough adhesive so that it shows when done
But it appears that you found a better replacement and by posting hopefully saved someone else from purchase the poorly made or labeled ones
Thanks Jeff. Further to the rad question, does that mean that manual trans rads have plugs for the cooler lines or are there no holes/fittings on the 4 speed trans rad?
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Yes, they appear to be bent. I have had no issues with the SD lower insulators. It maybe because your brackets are bent.
Don't think so. The rubber insulators are larger than the brackets, unless my brackets are replacements. But these are way off compared to the other part number that fits perfectly
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-260224003203-20146777.jpeg)
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Don't think so. The rubber insulators are larger than the brackets, unless my brackets are replacements. But these are way off compared to the other part number that fits perfectly
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-260224003203-20146777.jpeg)
I wonder if they were packaged incorrectly. Compare them to the upper insulators you have.
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I wonder if they were packaged incorrectly. Compare them to the upper insulators you have.
Upper insulators are completely different looking, but fit great. There are several different parts numbers, upper and lower etc. Perhaps they were miss labeled, but I am also not sure what the correct ones should look like as I have not seen a photo of originals to compare
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Thanks for all the great suggestions and photos. After much banging, bending and shaping I think I am getting pretty close to a good fit. Will do the final tweaks and then clean the up and paint them. FYI for some reason not only were they completely bent like a pretzel, but they were also welded on. I didn't notice this before the chassis was painted, neither did my painter unfortunately. But I am glad that I did, so I can correct it. However I need to do some small paint touch ups from where I removed the welds. So needless to say the brackets also need to have the welds removed and cleaned up.
I was not aware how bent the brackets were, but they were so bent I could barely get a wrench in to remove the bolts. Here is one I was working on compared to the bent one on the left.
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-270224013036-201771339.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-270224013036-20175814.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-270224013036-20174663.jpeg)
Drivers side starting to fit much better
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-270224013035-20169930.jpeg)
Passenger side only took about 5 minutes to reshape after figuring it out on the drivers side
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-270224013034-20162922.jpeg)
I will once again test fit the rad with the rubber insulators etc before I clan the up and paint them. Hopefully the weld areas will touch up ok. attaching the paint will be a bit of an issue, but fortunately it is not a very visible area.
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I know that you said you got new hardware from AMK but the bolts I have seen do not have the large washer. Like the ones in Jeff's pictures. Maybe it is a plant thing.
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I know that you said you got new hardware from AMK but the bolts I have seen do not have the large washer. Like the ones in Jeff's pictures. Maybe it is a plant thing.
+1 Think what you found was likely from a prior repair or remove and reattached
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I know that you said you got new hardware from AMK but the bolts I have seen do not have the large washer. Like the ones in Jeff's pictures. Maybe it is a plant thing.
Hard to tell in the photos Jeff posted, but the head marking look like the AMK bolts, except it appears that they also have the large washer
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Hard to tell in the photos Jeff posted, but the head marking look like the AMK bolts, except it appears that they also have the large washer
The two (the fender bolt and the one from the unrestored San Jose example are very different
Fender washer has a separate though captured washer that is larger than the original bolt shown. The bolt from the San Jose car has a flared base but no washer and the head design appears to be the RBW one
Notice the comparison of diameters in the pictures below
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/6-270224164442-201781392.jpeg)
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The bolts in the AMK kit are not fender bolts. They are shorter bolts that have washers similar to the fender bolts. They are typical of Dearborn, not so much for San Jose manufacture.
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The bolts in the AMK kit are not fender bolts. They are shorter bolts that have washers similar to the fender bolts. They are typical of Dearborn, not so much for San Jose manufacture.
Good point. I will have to see if I can find some bolts like that.
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The two (the fender bolt and the one from the unrestored San Jose example are very different
Fender washer has a separate though captured washer that is larger than the original bolt shown. The bolt from the San Jose car has a flared base but no washer and the head design appears to be the RBW one
Notice the comparison of diameters in the pictures below
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/6-270224164442-201781392.jpeg)
Thanks Jeff those are great reference photos
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Would these bolts be a better option compared to the other examples I posted
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-270224234118-201801737.jpeg)(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-270224234428-201812098.jpeg)
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Would these bolts be a better option compared to the other examples I posted
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-270224234118-201801737.jpeg)(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-270224234428-201812098.jpeg)
Possibly not. Those are Grade 5, the "Y" marking on the head. Previous shown bolts were Grade 5.1, the "T" marking (it's actually and inverted "T").
Jim
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Those seem to both be marked "T".
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These are what I have use from AMK in the past. You cannot see it in the picture but there is an anchor on the head.
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Those seem to both be marked "T".
Those "T" (there are two) is/are manufacturers logo's. Each, including the "C', are in a "Y" pattern. I strongly recommend you review bolt head markings. Try the library.
Jim
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The bolts in the AMK kit are not fender bolts. They are shorter bolts that have washers similar to the fender bolts. They are typical of Dearborn, not so much for San Jose manufacture.
Do you have a photo of the right bolts?
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These are what I have use from AMK in the past. You cannot see it in the picture but there is an anchor on the head.
Well I have anchor head bolts. I will check my AMK catalogue
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Those "T" (there are two) is/are manufacturers logo's. Each, including the "C', are in a "Y" pattern. I strongly recommend you review bolt head markings. Try the library.
Jim
I tried cross referencing all of my AMK catalogs and the Assembly Manual etc and have not been able to find a match. I just need to know what the correct head markings are so I can try to source them as they do not soon to be available in the aftermarket
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I tried cross referencing all of my AMK catalogs and the Assembly Manual etc and have not been able to find a match. I just need to know what the correct head markings are so I can try to source them as they do not soon to be available in the aftermarket
Do you have a Ford hardware part number? I recommend that you get into the habit of using a part number. It makes the search by others easier. See attached.
Jim
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Do you have a Ford hardware part number? I recommend that you get into the habit of using a part number. It makes the search by others easier. See attached.
Jim
Yes that is what I used. No luck. Could not find it in any of my 3 AMK catalogs
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Yes that is what I used. No luck. Could not find it in any of my 3 AMK catalogs
Was the number I gave you not available?
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Was the number I gave you not available?
Looks like I missed the number, but I've got it now. FYI the bolt you posted looks shorter than the one in Jeff's photo
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Was the number I gave you not available?
I tried cross referencing all of my AMK catalogs and the Assembly Manual etc and have not been able to find a match. I just need to know what the correct head markings are so I can try to source them as they do not soon to be available in the aftermarket
Yes that is what I used. No luck. Could not find it in any of my 3 AMK catalogs
I scanned this thread and NOT ONE OF YOU HAS REFERENCED A FORD HARDWARE PART NUMBER. Do you have "partnumberberphobia"? That
malady can be cured by determining the Ford hardware part number (It took me all of 30 seconds to determine what it was).
One of the goals of this forum is to educate its members. So far, you've not got a passing grade.
Jim
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I scanned this thread and NOT ONE OF YOU HAS REFERENCED A FORD HARDWARE PART NUMBER. Do you have "partnumberberphobia"? That
malady can be cured by determining the Ford hardware part number (It took me all of 30 seconds to determine what it was).
One of the goals of this forum is to educate its members. So far, you've not got a passing grade.
Jim
Thanks for your great teaching skills Jim. Sorry but it took me a while, as in a few years, but I think finally figured it out. Hopefully this explanation will help others. It sure would have helped me, or those of us that need things spelled out!
In the back of the AMK Bulk Fasteners Catalog, there is a Part Number reference spread sheet listed in order of the part numbers. First You find the part number in question in the Assembly Manual and then cross reference it with the spread sheet in the Bulk fasteners catalog, and it will give you the page number. The lower rad bracket bolt is listed as part number 40923 in the ASM.
Then just go to the page number. FYI it does not always say what the fastener is or manufacturer, but it will show the fastener that AMK has matched to the original part number.
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-290224194349-201862117.jpeg)
On page 109 there are 2 bolts shown, so not sure which one is correct
This is the one referenced by Ruppstang
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-290224194348-20182976.jpeg)
This is the other one on the same page, which is what Jeff referenced, so perhaps both are correct?
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-290224194349-201842381.jpeg)
However this one looks more like the one in Jeff's photo, as the bolt looks longer
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-290224194348-201821973.jpeg)
I think that it is safe to assume that assembly line workers would or could use any fastener that fit the application based on inventory and availability.
Hopefully I am one step closer to solving the case. FYI I searched extensively and could not find any posts regarding the lower rad brackets bolts, so perhaps this is uncharted territory, but if it helps anyone else in the process it was worth the effort. I know it has helped me. My current work flow ratio = 90% research - 10% wrenching! Which might explain why this project is taking 10 times longer that it should lol
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I think that it is safe to assume that assembly line workers would or could use any fastener that fit the application based on inventory and availability.
Workers didn't get to choose what hardware that was delivered to their station and it was not normal to just use anything that would work according to workers and plant managers. Of course there were times but those were rare and not typical
Hopefully I am one step closer to solving the case. FYI I searched extensively and could not find any posts regarding the lower rad brackets bolts, so perhaps this is uncharted territory, but if it helps anyone else in the process it was worth the effort. I know it has helped me. My current work flow ratio = 90% research - 10% wrenching! Which might explain why this project is taking 10 times longer that it should lol[/size]
Up side is that with good research you hopefully get things right he first time and you don't have to redo things more than once ;)
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Workers didn't get to choose what hardware that was delivered to their station and it was not normal to just use anything that would work according to workers and plant managers. Of course there were times but those were rare and not typical
Up side is that with good research you hopefully get things right he first time and you don't have to redo things more than once ;)
Yes would be nice to start only doing things one time lol
So would say that the RBW bolts are the correct ones for my car?
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So would say that the RBW bolts are the correct ones for my car?
Those are the six bolts that mount the block plates to the block. They are way too big at 3/8" - 18 TPI. The lower radiator brackets are 5/16"-18 TPI. The bolts in the AMK kit are closer P/N B-12565.
[/size]
(https://www.amkproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/VV2.png)
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So would say that the RBW bolts are the correct ones for my car?
Given that is the best information we have at the moment and a great original example of another late 68 San Jose car I would feel comfortable at this point going that direction
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Given that is the best information we have at the moment and a great original example of another late 68 San Jose car I would feel comfortable at this point going that direction
Jeff do you have a different part number in mind? The ones he referenced are P/N 375116-S, those won't fit or work.
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This is the one referenced by Ruppstang[/size][/font]
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/20/4775-290224194348-20182976.jpeg)
The screw (conventional wisdom calls it a screw) is shown in the "1968 Mustang Body Assembly Manual" (AM0021) pg 13 (N8-8105-4) as Ford Hardware part number 40923-S (no finish code shown). For 1969 it is also shown as -S (no finish code) but for 1970 it is shown as being a "-S2" (phosphate and oil).
I think that it is safe to assume that assembly line workers would or could use any fastener that fit the application based on inventory and availability.
Workers did not have that prerogative. Everything was done per engineering and assembly line documentation. Variations, like parts substitutions, needed to have approval of the assembly engineer. There are exceptions of course. Unfortunately these substitutions were not always formally documented.
Here's what you are faced with: the 1968 Body manual showing 40923-S, or pictures that have no referenced part number. Your call.
Jim
Jim
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Jeff do you have a different part number in mind? The ones he referenced are P/N 375116-S, those won't fit or work.
It would appear that the only ones that would fit are the B-12565. So while it may not have the correct heard marking it does fit.
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It would appear that the only ones that would fit are the B-12565. So while it may not have the correct heard marking it does fit.
Exactly, the ones that I told you would work. I searched the Ford number and the AMK cross reference as you did.