ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1966 Mustang => Topic started by: Josep on August 19, 2016, 02:23:08 AM
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Hi guys,
I'm trying to find a SMOG system for my I6 200 California car. I maybe have the chance to get one from a V8 car, but need to know if I can use some parts of the V8 in my 200.
First 2 pics show these parts I can maybe use, (with some mods/straight.?).
The last pic shows parts that NPD sells.
Please, is there a chance to use any of these parts in my car..?
Thanks,
Josep
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Take a look in the Free/Trade section. Richard Urch has one listed from a '67 200. Looks like you reached out to him before in that section. Maybe the system he has will help?
Matt
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Very few parts will be usable on your 6 cylinder and some of them will require additional parts to make them work.
Looks like the pump (with some additional parts but can't see the back side in the picture) a few clamps and the filter can could possibly be repurposed.
Guess you have already looked at the original unrestored San Jose pictures of the 66 T code with Thermactor on the site
You have hoses, brackets, valve, scoop for the pump, the manifolds (or trees) and a few nuts and bolts to still locate Sure I missed something from the quick list
Hopefully you already have the air cleaner (for the motor) and the breather for a Thermactor since those are different also
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Take a look in the Free/Trade section. Richard Urch has one listed from a '67 200. Looks like you reached out to him before in that section. Maybe the system he has will help?
Matt
Hi Matt, you're right about Richard Urch, but unfortunately he sold the system very fast.! I wasn't sure if it was suitable for my car, I was slow there and maybe I had to buy it from him, but now is gone and I have to look for other options.
Josep
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Very few parts will be usable on your 6 cylinder and some of them will require additional parts to make them work.
yes Jeff, I know maybe some parts can work in my car. Guessing for the air pump, air canister and maybe backfire valve, but just guessing
Looks like the pump (with some additional parts but can't see the back side in the picture) a few clamps and the filter can could possibly be repurposed.
of course If I would go for that system I would need the fittings to join all, hoses, brackets, etc..but maybe easier to find that all the stuff.
Guess you have already looked at the original unrestored San Jose pictures of the 66 T code with Thermactor on the site
I sure did Jeff.! But I'm missing more detailed pics from different angles of the Thermactor. I will re-check the article closely anyway
You have hoses, brackets, valve, scoop for the pump, the manifolds (or trees) and a few nuts and bolts to still locate Sure I missed something from the quick list
NPD sells the manifold assy exhaust air supply that will fit my car
Hopefully you already have the air cleaner (for the motor) and the breather for a Thermactor since those are different also
Do you mean I can also use the air cleaner (black canister.?) also.? Or that I can't use it since they are different.?
Oh! I see... yes Jeff, but these parts are easy to find
Josep
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Very few parts will be usable on your 6 cylinder and some of them will require additional parts to make them work.
yes Jeff, I know maybe some parts can work in my car. Guessing for the air pump, air canister and maybe backfire valve, but just guessing
Backfire valve doesn't need the hook up to the V8 air cleaner on the rear of the base section. Believe you'll need the two port style. Some will work - just don't want you spending a bunch of money for things you can't use
You have hoses, brackets, valve, scoop for the pump, the manifolds (or trees) and a few nuts and bolts to still locate Sure I missed something from the quick list
NPD sells the manifold assy exhaust air supply that will fit my car
Should fit - not sure how close the look is to the original
Hopefully you already have the air cleaner (for the motor) and the breather for a Thermactor since those are different also
Do you mean I can also use the air cleaner (black canister.?) also.? Or that I can't use it since they are different.?
No was referring to the air cleaner on your engine (the larger blue painted thing ;)
Wish I hadn't thrown so many of the 6 cylinder parts out :(
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Backfire valve doesn't need the hook up to the V8 air cleaner on the rear of the base section. Believe you'll need the two port style. Some will work - just don't want you spending a bunch of money for things you can't use
OK Jeff, thanks. Think the valve is 3 ports(?) Maybe one port can be blocked..
Should fit - not sure how close the look is to the original
See first post, last pic. Think it's acceptable, but you'll know better than me
No was referring to the air cleaner on your engine (the larger blue painted thing ;)
Yes, I realized later what you were meaning ;)
Wish I hadn't thrown so many of the 6 cylinder parts out :(
Yes, that's a pitty, but who could know..!
Josep
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I think I have an original system with all the original pieces and hoses. Im not home till end of the weekend but can check for you. Just send me an email or PM to remind me.
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PM sent Marcus. Thanks.!
Josep
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So, for my knowledge, how many holes has the anti backfire valve in a V8 and I6..?
From the schematic on the 1966 Shop Manual, they're the same valve, two outlets, one going to the air pump and the other one to the intake manifold or carb spacer. And from the same schematic, the air supply pump and air pump cleaner, also common to both models, same as the check valve (V8 has 2 and I6 obviously 1).
Brackets, hoses and some more items will be different.
And this gives me another question, were does the hose going from the air cleaner breather located in the lid.?
I've been told that this is not necessary in V8s, but if they share the same main parts, pump, filter and valve..were does it goes in a I6..? Saw pics with a hose attached going to...(?)
I thought it went to the backfire valve, but if it only has 2 outlets..?
Thanks for putting me in the right way,
Josep
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So, for my knowledge, how many holes has the anti backfire valve in a V8 and I6..?
From the schematic on the 1966 Shop Manual,
What you have in the picture is a generic setup not specific to either a V8 or 6 cylinder so be careful at following/copying all the details
they're the same valve, two outlets, one going to the air pump and the other one to the intake manifold or carb spacer. And from the same schematic, the air supply pump and air pump cleaner, also common to both models, same as the check valve (V8 has 2 and I6 obviously 1).
- There are two types of backfire valves used - a 2 port and a 3 port. depended on the application. Your 6 cylinder used the 2 port as shown in the earlier pictures in the other thread. http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=13702.msg84916#msg84916 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=13702.msg84916#msg84916)
- There were pumps with three and four hose nipples at the rear. It was not uncommon for the plant to use the four where the three could have been used - it was just another/extra output nipple. In the pictures earlier the pump showed that one of the ports had been capped from the factory and unused. So one hose to the valve, one large one to the pump filter, one to the manifold at the cylinder head and the last one capped off.
And this gives me another question, were does the hose going from the air cleaner breather located in the lid.?
Plastic or pot metal base with two screws or bolts attaching itself to the lid? If so its a retrofit - later addition to the car.
If your asking about the the nipple (formed sheet metal) formed into the lid on Sprints or the snorkel on non-Sprints it is connected to the valve cover breather as shown in the other thread.
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Alright Jeff, I see. Thought this could be maybe the general setup, so I saw common parts.
From the other thread pictures, they're not clear but looks to me like there were 3 hoses going out the backfire valve, 1 to pump, 2 to check valve (manifold Assyria) and 3 to intake manifold/carb spacer. Sure I'm wrong, but viewing the pics that could be.!
Yes, I'm referring to that nipple. But lids has tow of them, one in the snorkel and another one almost just opposite to it, in the cover. Pic nr. 8 shows the nipple with no hose connected.
Here are two pics from another V8 system that I have also locate, any difference from the pics I posted first.? Are they the same..? To me they are, but your expert eyes will judge. Thanks.
Josep
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Yes, I'm referring to that nipple. But lids has tow of them, one in the snorkel and another one almost just opposite to it, in the cover. Pic nr. 8 shows the nipple with no hose connected.
Just so that I'm clear on what you have currently - since we've not seen pictures of your engine and set up that I can recall. You have a painted non- Sprint air cleaner on your car. And from your signature a very late 66 production San Jose T code.
Will put aside some time tomorrow - I'll dig some books out and see if they can put us back on track or give us a list of all the appropriate parts you need. And Yes I do see what your describing as some of the applications using the three port rather than the two port for some of the others. We have the single nipple and the two nipple air cleaner lids as well (though its not part of this discussion) the retrofitted extra nipple installed on some later in life.
Oh and don't think we'll find a connection to the intake or carb spacer. But should be clear when we take a close look at all of this stuff
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Thanks Jeff,
Have sent you a PM.
Yes, correct.
Ah! OK, thought the retrofitted nipple was standard in smog 200 cars. So, only the one in the snorkel is the original.?
I deducted that a hose from the valve was going to the intake/carb spacer from the schematic I posted.
Here are some pics of my car. The snorkel has not the nipple but that's an easy find.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/140238193@N04/shares/273754
What was connected to this valve (sorry I don't know the name) attached to the intake manifold.?
And were does this hose (yellow arrow) going..?
I also found this schematic and now I see the connections from the backfire valve, 1 goes to air filter, 1 to pump and one to Cyl head/manifold assy. Think I have it clear now.!
Josep
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Sorry for all the confusion. Bering the first year for for and the Thermactor system there was allot of things going on and a number of running changes in these systems. At this point it looks like there are possibly three different systems (slightly different from one another) used during the production year. All of this just adds to the pile of conflicting information if looked at in total and ignoring VINs and production periods
The drawing you found is what we typically find on 67 Fords with the 240 6 cylinder but it was also used for a short period on 200's as found on a handful of examples
You car being a very late car will at least narrow down the search and discussion but wanted to warn others reading this to take notice that it might not specifically relate to their car built during another time period
Ah! OK, thought the retrofitted nipple was standard in smog 200 cars. So, only the one in the snorkel is the original.?
I deducted that a hose from the valve was going to the intake/carb spacer from the schematic I posted.
Lets forget the retrofitted nipple. It's not factory and its just adding an extra component that is not needed in this conversation since it does not appear you have one
So it appears that we have two initial issues. First the routing of the large hoses (this will confirm which backfire vale you need) and the air clear issues. Other things we can address after we get these behind us.
What was connected to this valve (sorry I don't know the name) attached to the intake manifold.?
And were does this hose (yellow arrow) going..?
The hose you marked in yellow, on that one style of system) goes to the nipple on the engine air cleaner lid. On the other style it routes to the Thermactor air cleaner
Looking at all the pictures of all the 6 cylinder Thermactor cars I think you have the wrong lid for your car.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816144951-61321122.jpeg)
Looked at your pictures we can see that the air cleaner has no nipple on the snorkel and an open breather cap. This would not be consistent with what was required by the state (they required a "closed system"_) and would require a breather cap with nipple and one on the snorkel connected with a hose
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816154127-61332423.jpeg)
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Right Jeff, thanks for your time for teaching me about the smog.
Yes, I know my air cleaner lid is not the correct one, not the factory original, but I haven't told anything because there are repros from the most common vendors, so I can get not the original but one that fits the car.
Understand that there were only one nipple in the snorkel in the original car at some time, and later the other nipple in the lid. Yes, I also understood in maybe earlier versions, the larger hose went to the air pump air filter, but later to the other nipple in air cleaner. And also have clear that I don't have the oil cap with the breather to connect the hose between this and th enipple in the snorkel. That's clear to me now, and if I haven't mention is because i think they are easy finds, repros at least, and that's good enough for me since I don't have probably other options.
That been said, I think until here I'm clear.!
So, what's next now..? How to determinate which valve do I need..?
Appreciate your help Jeff.
Josep
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Yes, I know my air cleaner lid is not the correct one, not the factory original, but I haven't told anything because there are repros from the most common vendors, so I can get not the original but one that fits the car.
Well you'll need to look for a used original lid over time
Understand that there were only one nipple in the snorkel in the original car at some time, and later the other nipple in the lid. Yes, I also understood in maybe earlier versions, the larger hose went to the air pump air filter, but later to the other nipple in air cleaner. And also have clear that I don't have the oil cap with the breather to connect the hose between this and the nipple in the snorkel. That's clear to me now, and if I haven't mention is because i think they are easy finds, repros at least, and that's good enough for me since I don't have probably other options.
Looked through a bunch of pictures and it appears that both types of 6 cylinder systems with Thermactor used the air cleaner lids with two nipples. In cars with the Thermactor that used the hose to the Thermactor air filter the second nipple was capped and the other nipple was used for the breather connection
Did look at a dozen or so books focused on emission systems from the period as well as my pictures I can offer the following
There were two systems used For lack of a better term I'll refer to them as system A which connects the back fire valve to the engine air filter and System B where the same hose is attached to the Thermactor air filter cover/lid like found on 240 6 cylinders and 67 Shelby's
Looking at pictures of cars originally equipped with Thermactor built at San Jose and I see System B on very early cars and those in the 6R18xxxx though 6R19xxxxx period. I found System A style installed on cars in the 6R12xxxx-6R16xxxx and (similar to your car) in very late cars around 6R226xxx
System A (for our discussion purposes)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-110114203751-15562456.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-110114203747-1554152.jpeg)
Showing hose going around and to the engine air filter lid
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175151-6139524.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175143-61342162.jpeg)
System B (for our discussion purposes)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175152-61402342.jpeg)
No hose around back of the engine but instead to the Thermactor air filter nipple
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175146-61361508.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175144-61352195.jpeg)
That been said, I think until here I'm clear.!
So, what's next now..? How to determinate which valve do I need..?
Would go with the three port for your usage and time period Its likely a used one will have worn finishes (gold dye for the main body and zinc dichromate for the top cover). There are new ones out there but can cost a bit but its cheaper compare getting the plating done/correct. Of course allot of NOS ones are in poor condition after all these years so check condition first. That is likely why those pieces are in the box and not installed on a show car ;)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175154-61412154.jpeg)
And something else to be on the look out for
The smog pump valve cover
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175149-61382110.jpeg)
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Well you'll need to look for a used original lid over time
I'll do, and I also make a call to anybody that could help me finding these parts, that would be great.
Looked through a bunch of pictures and it appears that both types of 6 cylinder systems with Thermactor used the air cleaner lids with two nipples. In cars with the Thermactor that used the hose to the Thermactor air filter the second nipple was capped and the other nipple was used for the breather connection
OK, they just capped if it had not to be in use, but always two nipples, understood.
Did look at a dozen or so books focused on emission systems from the period as well as my pictures I can offer the following
There were two systems used For lack of a better term I'll refer to them as system A which connects the back fire valve to the engine air filter and System B where the same hose is attached to the Thermactor air filter cover/lid like found on 240 6 cylinders and 67 Shelby's
Looking at pictures of cars originally equipped with Thermactor built at San Jose and I see System B on very early cars and those in the 6R18xxxx though 6R19xxxxx period. I found System A style installed on cars in the 6R12xxxx-6R16xxxx and (similar to your car) in very late cars around 6R226xxx
6R12xxxx - 6R16xxxx are much earlier than 6R18xxxx -6R19xxxx, for swapping between systems A and B, then jumped to 6R226xxx (mine is 6R213xxx), just curious.
System A (for our discussion purposes)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-110114203751-15562456.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/1/6-110114203747-1554152.jpeg)
Showing hose going around and to the engine air filter lid
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175151-6139524.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175143-61342162.jpeg)
System B (for our discussion purposes)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175152-61402342.jpeg)
No hose around back of the engine but instead to the Thermactor air filter nipple
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175146-61361508.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175144-61352195.jpeg)
Yes, that's what I have noted and showed from the schematics I found around, systems A and B.
My deduction was that if the hose on schematic (system B) was going to air filter Thermactor, from the routing of the hose on the back of the engine, (in the pics showed and since there was not a nipple in air filter Thermactor) could go to the engine air filter nipple (system A).
Would go with the three port for your usage and time period Its likely a used one will have worn finishes (gold dye for the main body and zinc dichromate for the top cover). There are new ones out there but can cost a bit but its cheaper compare getting the plating done/correct. Of course allot of NOS ones are in poor condition after all these years so check condition first. That is likely why those pieces are in the box and not installed on a show car ;)
Right, think the 3 port valve is the one showed in the first pics I posted, so it has to be good.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175154-61412154.jpeg)
And something else to be on the look out for
The smog pump valve cover
Yes, small details that I also have to take care of them. Also making a call to anybody that could have in their junk box these missing parts so I can get from them would definitely help me.
Thanks for all that info Jeff, I think we have almost all clear now, we know the routing, the valve type and some other details to take care of, so if you know sources to collect that parts, apart from eBay, I appreciate your information. Unfortunately no flea-markets here, not much chances to really find them here, so eBay, or others, and the possibility of helpful hands from the guys in the forum are my opportunities. Thanks all.!
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175149-61382110.jpeg)
Josep
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"...Its likely a used one will have worn finishes (gold dye for the main body and zinc dichromate for the top cover).
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-230816175154-61412154.jpeg)
Am I wrong or description has been swapped..? How I see, top cover is gold dye and body zinc dichromate, is it right.? Just to my understanding...
That being said, are those (red arrows) parts painted the right way.? Shouldn't be plated zinc dichromate..?
And what should be the color for the (yellow arrow) manifold assembly, check valve and "trees"..? Engine blue for all..? Thanks,
Josep
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By the way, I have been able (finally.!) to locate a 66 200 I6 Thermactor system almost complete, and it's for free (many thanks Gene.!). Air pump support bracket and air pump bracket already found. What I'm still missing is the manifold support bracket (C6DE-9B481-A) and the air pump valve scoop cover.
Josep
CORRECITON: today I have found the manifold support bracket and correct adjusting arm.!!!
Just lacking the air pump relief valve silencer, (the one shown is not the one I was looking for).
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Well guys, looks like I am fortunate.!!!
I have found the right silencer for my SMOG system.!!
With that, I complete all the system, so you can imagine how happy I feel.!!
Here's the pic,
Josep
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Well guys, looks like I am fortunate.!!!
I have found the right silencer for my SMOG system.!!
With that, I complete all the system, so you can imagine how happy I feel.!!
Here's the pic,
Josep
That is really cool! "Far out"! and let's not forget "GROOVY, man!" (just like in the 60's) I hope you didn't spend too much but it is ALWAYS nice to see somebody's ambitions come together like this!
BTW, do you also have the vacuum line & fittings? I do not see them in your pictures. (look at other pictures in all related threads, you should see a thin tubing like a brake line, between intake manifold vacuum source & the backfire valve.)
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Think you should buy at least one lottery ticket. ;D
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Richard:
Yes, I have that line too, in fact, I think I have it all.! Not in the pics but yes, I have it. Well, yes, check my first post, picture #2, there you can see the vacuum line.
Got two SMOGS, one from a V8 at $75 and one from a I6 for free.!
Air pump bracket $40, air pump support brackt $25, air tube support + adjusting arm + silencer $90
Not bad at all.!
Jeff:
I have to.!! Tomorrow I will do.!!
Thanks guys.!
Josep
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Hello again.!
Just some questions related...
#1 See in the pic above, there are two types of ferrules, on the left a one piece, on the right a two piece ferrules.
Can I use any of them for my application, or does it has to be specifically one of the shown above..?
#2 Also, is there any possibly to get a anti backfire valve diagram..? I would help to determinate how the internal parts moves, to check it's functionality.
#3 Regarding the silencer, I see from this pics different configurations. Looks to me that the right one should be the same as the one shown in that ad, with the two holes facing the front of the car.
Thanks,
Josep
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#1 See in the pic above, there are two types of ferrules, on the left a one piece, on the right a two piece ferrules.
Can I use any of them for my application, or does it has to be specifically one of the shown above..?
Not sure at the moment
#2 Also, is there any possibly to get a anti backfire valve diagram..? I would help to determinate how the internal parts moves, to check it's functionality.
There are training manuals that go through trouble shooting and system basics from the period
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-090916161935-61892475.jpeg)
#3 Regarding the silencer, I see from this pics different configurations. Looks to me that the right one should be the same as the one shown in that ad, with the two holes facing the front of the car.
Yes it appears in the bottom of your three pictures that it should be rotated like in the first picture and as instructed in the Ford document. Easy fit
BTW dumped the other post so that the info would all be posted under this one heading since its so related
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Thanks for diagrams Jeff.!
Josep
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Not sure at the moment
There are training manuals that go through trouble shooting and system basics from the period
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-090916161935-61892475.jpeg)
Yes it appears in the bottom of your three pictures that it should be rotated like in the first picture and as instructed in the Ford document. Easy fit
BTW dumped the other post so that the info would all be posted under this one heading since its so related
I can see a few ways to trouble shoot both valves with a small hand held vacuum pump and an air compressor. That will only tell you if the diaphragm is intact, the air valve moves and air is deflected. Spring tension and leaks not so much.
Jim