ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Processes, Products & Techniques => Topic started by: 67gtasanjose on August 06, 2016, 11:40:33 AM
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A while back while discussing Evapo-Rust, also spelled Evaporust (for searching), another member brought up this product called Rust911 or Rust 911 and had expressed very good results so I thought I would give it a try.
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=87676;topic=13976.15
The larger advantage of this product is that it is shipped concentrated so a single gallon will yield you 16 gallons of usable product. A good majority of our projects need more than one or two gallons to get an item submerged so this seemed to be a practical option given the product only costs about $60 with shipping.
Now the project I had in mind when discussing the Evapo-Rust (in that other thread) is a hood that had a rather serious buildup of rust inside of the structure, in areas that were not accessible to deal with. This rust felt like 80 grit sandpaper feels instead of smooth metal, when feeling the inside of the hood structure, not to mention other areas where you could see build-up of rust like looking throungh the latch opening of my 67's hood. My goal was to prep the inside of the hood so I could use another product to try and seal off the rust so it would not continue to grow. I was thinking of using POR15 and simply rolling it around the edges of the hood using gravity to get it into the seams however reading the instructions for POR15, they indicated that the metal needed to be clean. (I ussumed this means rust-free also)
I removed all of the surface rust from the hood that I plan to use in all of the areas that you could access with sanders and other paint stripping products rust gels etc...Many hours went into this but I was still at a loss at what to use that was affordable to strip the rust from the inside of the hood. This RUST911 was the answer to that problem. Below are several pictures and hopefully there can be more discussion about good steps to use as a follow-up to what I have accomplished so far. I am by no means an auto-body expert so as a do-it-yourselfer I am open for discussions to prevent future rust development on such parts.
Now 16 gallons was a bit less than needed to fully submerge my hood but I was able to get all areas covered by tilting my homemade tub. My tub consists of a plywood bottom, plywood & 2x4 sides screwed together and 6 MIL plastic sheathing. Underneath my hood and the plastic sheathing is another 67 Mustng hood skin to try and maximized the coverage with the 16 gallons. Probably another 4 gallons would have been better but this is good enough. Another overnight dip for the leading edge of the hood that was missed in last nights soaking and I'll be ready to pull it out of the bath and clean it up.
Anyone with ideas on how I can nuetralize this stuff? Something that may not flash-rust while cleaning this off?
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As for "How good does this stuff work?", you can see the black cloud developing in as little as 30 minutes and within 18 hours, very rusty parts were smooth as silk. Cannot beat that!
The product looks like water when poured. To mix per instructions of 8 oz. product to 1 gallon of water, I used a 16 oz. water bottle and two, one-gallon jugs and simply poured the two at a time, together as to mix it while pouring...I have to say, I wondered about how well it might work but the 1/2 hour later "cloud" showed the results...a little shaking of my bathtub and occasional stirring just to get fresh juice against the rusty areas it was easy to see it wasn't going to take too long.
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Thanks for posting.
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If you think the inside of your hood has no rust on it here is the inside of a hood that I cut open that wasn't showing any visible rust on the outside-top or majority of the bottom side of the hood. Now this particular Hood had a few body shop repairs to it so I considered it as scrap value...so I didn't sacrifice a "good hood" for the sake of demonstrating purposes or just simply to obtain the "skin" that I used as means of building my bathtub but as you can see there is heavy rust on the inside of the structure while the underside of the structure that was painted looks perfectly fine in these two pictures.
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Thanks for posting your experience. I am looking forward to using the rust 911 I bought but haven't used. If you are looking for ideas on how to neutralize the product I would contact the people who sell the product. It may not need to be neutralized. They claimed to be engineers. Keep us posted.
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Their website states it is PH neutral. The MSDS sheet for the concentrate indicates PH 6-7 (7 being neutral). Worst case, 6 is only very slightly acidic, about as much as milk. Once it's diluted in water, it's going to be very close to neutral.
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Their website states it is PH neutral. The MSDS sheet for the concentrate indicates PH 6-7 (7 being neutral). Worst case, 6 is only very slightly acidic, about as much as milk. Once it's diluted in water, it's going to be very close to neutral.
OK, I am comfortable with the idea this product is essentially "neutral" but now I need to do a thorough pressure-washing to flush out debris and rust remnants. There are very few holes to work through so once I get as much as I can out, I imagine I will once again dip this back through a clean water bath.
NOW I am pretty sure this will bring on the FLASH RUST so does anyone have any idead of a solution to use to prevent this? TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE was suggested as an idea in another thread but when I hear the word SODIUM I hear SALT which to me spells RUST. That thread was titled "Water and Glass Media Blasting" where discussion included mention of an additive for helping against flash rust but the "Secret Additive" was never revealed. http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=9916.msg58697#msg58697
I did find this link for Dustless Media Blasting with discussion on the "Secret Additive":
http://www.dustlessblasting.com/rust-inhibitor.html
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Rich,
I use TSP in the vibrator with the green pyramids cleaning steel hardware and get no "flash rust". Have you thought of using a garden sprayer with the long nozzle to get access to interior nooks and crannies?
Jim
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Willing to consider anything I can get locally since I plan to pull it out of the bath in the am
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I am not sure what "solution" would be used, but the video Dave Z posted regarding a ford is born, referred to a type of plating that was used with electrodes. It would be interesting if anyone has an idea of what may have been used.
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I am not sure what "solution" would be used, but the video Dave Z posted regarding a ford is born, referred to a type of plating that was used with electrodes. It would be interesting if anyone has an idea of what may have been used.
Allot of plating process use electricity to transfer the "plating" or material from the sacrificial anodes to the intended surfaces. Is this what you asking about?
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Thanks for posting the info. I will have to order some.
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Allot of plating process use electricity to transfer the "plating" or material from the sacrificial anodes to the intended surfaces. Is this what you asking about?
Not quite, the video in the General Assembely Line Disucussion - A Car is born ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vi6NWncnZec ) showed the entire body being submerged in a solution prior to painting (about the 11 min mark).
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Not quite, the video in the General Assembely Line Disucussion - A Car is born ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vi6NWncnZec ) showed the entire body being submerged in a solution prior to painting (about the 11 min mark).
Think I recall that section. Ford didn't do that to all bodies just the more expensive cars like that they did with the T birds and the dunking they did in primer. Cheaper cars like ours got the quick - no extra frills processes ::)
Might be able to look in the Lincoln and T Bird lit to see what they did with those bodies and that step to see if it yields any clues
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OK, I pulled the hood from the bath this morning and did a pressure wash thinking I would re-bathe the hood to deal with any FLASH rust after doing an inspection as best I can. Over the weekend, since I was unable to get the whole hood submerged all at once, I had dipped the hood in THREE segments, RH rear corner first, LH rear next and the whole nose of the hood last. The NOSE end stayed submerged for about 48 hours. The results varied on thoroughness of cleaning as the product wore out some each time. By the time I got to the nose, the product was already BLACK as could be (see last image in previous reply NOTE: manufacturer says "BLACK" indicates the product is weakened or spent )
I have to say, it still did a VERY, very good job but there is still some areas of minor (now treated) rust on hood upper surface that I can find when I look inside with a scope. Most areas previously coated are completely smooth and virtually ALL of the areas that went under during the first dipp are perfect.
The remaining areas that are less than perfect are NO WHERE NEAR as bad as before but obviously, the product broke down some (wore out some) from previous dipping of the rear sections. Now, THIS isn't saying I think this product is BAD, I am sure, had I let it sit longer, it possibly would have eventually finished the work and more importantly, I really don't know how bad this area of the hood was compared to the areas that came out good were (seems the whole inner structure was fairly rusty) You really cannot see up in there very well at all and there is basically about 35 square feet of bare sheet metal to deal with so I still give it a "THUMBS UP" (NOTE: There was NO VISIBLE RUST to speak of externally on the regular painted surfaces, I am only dealing with the inside, bare metal, hidden surfaces of this one hood)
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OK, bit the bullet and bought yet another gallon of the 911 :o ::)
Another issue I noticed while trying to dip the hood in segments, NOT getting it fully submerged...I had "High Water Lines" etched into the metal.
This time around, I decided to call the vendor & discuss the project with the RUST 911 product provider, I also brought up my flash rust issue with him.
He suggested to use their "METAL SHIELD 2009" product and since I also mentioned this thread discussion (no doubt a surge in ORDERS from this thread ;) ) he sent me a sample to use at NO additional charge. I expressed concerns of "cleaning it off" before painting and he assured me to not worry about that. (normal paint prep procedures would work fine)
NOW, with the new bottle of 911 Rust Dissolver, I this time SANDWICHED my hood between the donor outer skin and the donor inner structure and two layers of 6MIL. plastic sheathing to again maximize the 16 gallons of product and getting a full submersion.
A simple overnight soak and I pulled the freshly re-dipped hood out, absolutely NO RUST anymore inside. Using some of the 911 Dissolver, I did a coarse steel wool scrubbing of the top side first (with it leaning against a wall), followed by a quick rinse with water and an immediate light spray coating of their Metal Shield 2009. Then I turned the hood around to tackle the underside, scrubbing about 6-10 inches of the structure at a time worked out great. I then flipped the hood over once more to again treat the top side as needed.
Honestly, I think this hood is GALVANIZED, is that possible?
Oh, and THIS time, the product was almost CLEAR when finished....Bottled up and ready for the next project(s) ;) Since I own a auto repair shop, I simply used old WS Washer Fluid bottles I had been holding on to for such an occasion as this ;)
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I have been working over the insides of my doors the last few weeks, repairing rust-out on my drivers door and preventing further rusting on both doors. I did use the RUST911 again for this and actually just ordered yet another (4th gallon over time). I REALLY like this stuff! Since you get 16 gallons for about $60...and it works so nicely, I haven't bought any other product for this job since my first gallon 2-years ago!
I just thought I would add a detail I feel will help other restorers dealing with the potential of rust-out down the road in the "hidden" areas.
So, my original doors look to have been galvanized steel, like the hood, fenders and probably most of the car sheet metal. Once the ZINC is off the metal, future life of the metal will be shortened. I learned this the hard way on my drivers door I am afraid. I thought I FIXED it back in 1985 from getting worse when I found a tiny blister in the front corner way back then.
Being from Ohio, I knew rust in 1985. I was then living in Palm Springs area, my 67 Mustang had been initially from the High Dessert area and I lived in the Low Dessert so the car was always HOT & DRY, why then RUST in the front corner of my original drivers door?
It's a TRAP! There is a trap in the front corners of our Mustang doors that retain dirt, debris and MOISTURE. In '85, when I cut my door open to expose the cause of my paint blister, I found this out. I sandblasted the opening I cut into the door skin, removed ALL of the rust I could reach, removed the door panel, cleaned everything inside the bottom of the door off, blasted whatever was rusty and shot undercoating on everything bare that I could see. The outside skin had already been "brazed" in so I simply body-filled the corner and repainted just the driver door. (no signs of any issues on the passengers door back then).
Fast-Forward to about a month ago and I stripped my doors down to the shells to clean then up and to get ready for paint. What I found next was SHOCKING!
I had already noticed another blister in my driver door, in the same area I had patched. The passengers door still looked pretty good but I could make out a faint, tiny blister there, in the same area. Not surprising, but what WAS surprising was when I removed my driver door lower weatherstripping, the whole front corner came out with it! All of what I THOUGHT I had protected so many years ago, was what looked like a TOTAL LOSS, but WHY? The passengers door I had never touched was all but perfect on the outside surfaces and I never did anything to it so many years ago, that and THAT door came from another parts donor back in 1978 so history of that door was anyone's guess!
I figured it out. I CREATED MY OWN PROBLEM! I "sandblasted" it to remove rust but without the original galvanized (zinc) coating, some areas were now BARE STEEL and the same garbage I took out of the TRAP so many years ago had returned too so the dirt was holding moisure on bare metal probably 99% of the time! You know, car washes, dessert dity blowing around getting car dirty, wash cat again, and again what 1-2 times a week?
I HAVE A SOLUTION! Recently, we have been discussing repairing textured surfaces on the INSIDES of our door assemblies so even though I thought my original door was probably rusted too bad to fix, I DID HAVE ANOTHER DRIVER DOOR that, though off a wrecked car, dented worse than I wanted to fix also, it had a section I could cut out of it to graft into my original drivers door. That was the easier part. NEXT, I need to get all the rest of the RUST OFF everything but more importantly, to PROTECT THE HIDDEN AREAS AS MUCH AS WHAT CAN BE SEEN AND COATED. Those front corner traps are just that, now after media-blasting now BOTH doors, I needed something to 100% coat them so that no water, moisture or dirt or debris can get in there ever again...The SOLUTION: Fiberglass resin (and gravity)!
Between the pictures below and the YouTube links which videos are only about a minute or so long each it explains a lot more then what words can say. Obviously I still need to move on to fixing the textured surfaces and such but I'm almost where the insides of the doors are done ( once I get another can of the RUST911 to finish the 2nd door)
https://youtu.be/DO-bIH75u8s
https://youtu.be/k_cDWxJMLIw
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+1 made the switch from Evaporust to RUST 911 and am not looking back.
Evaporust is about $22 per gallon. If you get a 5 gallon drum the price drops to about $16 per gallon. Not including shipping or time and mileage driving to the store.
RUST 911, shipped to your door free, is about $3.75 per gallon after mixing with water. I make as little or as much as I need, when I need it. Doesn't take up much space in the gallon concentrate.
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Willing to consider anything I can get locally since I plan to pull it out of the bath in the am
Bit too late, but not for others . . .
I've had my ashtray cover and glovebox door laying around in the shop, unpainted, for about 2 years now and no rust.
I take Prep & Etch (P&E) -- full strength -- and spray it on freshly media blasted or sanded metal. Then wipe it down with a paper towel and then blow it dry with air. If you don't wipe it streaks occur. Otherwise it leaves a nice dull zinc phosphate look that rivals hot zinc phosphate, but lighter. It removes slight amounts of rust and leave a protective coating.
When I did my fenders they were dipped, etched and phophated and I simply took the spray gun with DP in it, narrowed the fan down until I could spray it in a very narrow pattern and just hosed it into the hidden areas, letting it just drip out. In area you later see, sand down any runs and spray a smooth coat.
As for Rust911, it works good but when it turns really black it's done. I may have to buy a 55 gallon drum when I do the MGA and just soak the whole car.