Author Topic: Starting problem  (Read 2893 times)

Offline tobkob

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2020, 01:07:50 PM »
The OP did this and said it runs with a jumper from battery to coil.  ;)

TOB
1969 (04/07/69) GT350 owned since 1970. Only owner since Hertz.

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2020, 04:11:28 PM »
The OP did this and said it runs with a jumper from battery to coil.  ;)

TOB
Then why all the extraneous posts?
Jim
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Offline Bossbill

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2020, 07:17:20 PM »
The wiring harness is the same regardless of engine cylinder count or size so it can be unplugged.

I would start by measuring voltage at the I terminal on the starter solenoid. Should be 12 volts with the key in "START" position.

But the harnesses are not the same with respect to tach and non-tach cars in either the main or dash harness (for 67). Even the engine compartment main harness is different.
The red wire power isn't even sourced from the same place on the two harnesses.
Bill
Concours  Actual Ford Build 3/2/67 GT350 01375
Driven      6/6/70 0T02G160xxx Boss 302
Modified   5/18/65 5F09A728xxx 347 Terminator-X 8-Stack
Race        65 2+2 Coupe conversion

Offline midlife

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2020, 08:53:12 PM »
But the harnesses are not the same with respect to tach and non-tach cars in either the main or dash harness (for 67). Even the engine compartment main harness is different.
The red wire power isn't even sourced from the same place on the two harnesses.
I believe we are talking about the engine gauge feed harness, not the underdash, headlight, or alternator harness. 
Midlife Harness Restorations - http://midlifeharness.com

Offline Bossbill

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2020, 09:04:22 PM »
I'm not sure what we are talking about anymore!

Back to cataloging KH calipers...
Bill
Concours  Actual Ford Build 3/2/67 GT350 01375
Driven      6/6/70 0T02G160xxx Boss 302
Modified   5/18/65 5F09A728xxx 347 Terminator-X 8-Stack
Race        65 2+2 Coupe conversion

Offline RoyceP

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2020, 10:41:26 PM »
I would still start by measuring voltage at the “I “ terminal on the starter solenoid with the key turned to the “Start”position. Doing that will verify lots of things and takes a few seconds.
1968 W code 427 Cougar XR-7 GTE Feb 23 Dearborn C6 / 3.50 open
1968 R code 428CJ Cougar XR-7 May 13 Dearborn C6 / 3.91 T - Lock

Offline Captain Kent

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2020, 12:20:46 AM »
Wow guys you are great.  A lot to work with, it is kind of what I thought was going on but didn't have all this information to help.  I have to travel in the next couple of days and will tackle this when I get home. I will report back. Really weird deal.

Any idea what caused this? Brand new wiring harness and restoration less than 800 miles and less than a year.

Kent
1967 Lone Star Special. Owned since ‘74
Produced in Dearborn April 7, 67
200 6cyl 3spd
Mustang Monthly; http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/1409-1967-ford-mustang-hardtop-rare-finds/

Offline ruppstang

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2020, 01:14:58 AM »
You may find it was just a defective ignition switch.

Offline Captain Kent

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2020, 01:45:22 AM »
I did replace the ignition switch, that wasn't it. And remember I jumped from the battery to the coil and the car ran. I really think that the resistance wire is allowing the voltage to drop too low after the starter disengages.
1967 Lone Star Special. Owned since ‘74
Produced in Dearborn April 7, 67
200 6cyl 3spd
Mustang Monthly; http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/1409-1967-ford-mustang-hardtop-rare-finds/

Offline 67gta289

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2020, 08:35:42 AM »
Here is a schematic I put together that might help.  Note that there are three diagrams, representing Off, Cranking, and Running modes.
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
7R02C156xxx
MCA 74660

Offline 67gta289

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2020, 09:19:52 AM »
Since you can crank and start, but the engine won't stay running, take a look at diagram 3 from the attachment on the previous post, representing when the ignition switch is in the run position.

The steps I recommend are:

Test 1: (easy) measure the voltage from the red-green wire at the coil, with reference to ground, while it is still connected to the coil.

1a. Measure voltage when cranking and report back here.  I assume that this is about 12V since you said in the original post that the engine will start with no hesitation.
1b. Measure voltage right after cranking, with key in run, and report back here.  I assume that this is near zero since you mentioned 0.76V, but your description of "ign to coil" is not perfectly clear to me.

Note that the following tests would be my recommendation if the running voltage at the coil is near zero.

Test 2: (easy) put the ignition switch in the run (not crank) position, then measure voltage on the brown wire at the starter relay.  You can pull the wire from the relay, it does not need to be connected to anything.  Reference is ground.

2a. If you have a nominal 12V, then your ignition switch and resistor wire are good.  Go to test 4.
2b. If you have no or very low voltage, go to test 3.

Test 3.  (intermediate) pull the ignition switch out and temporarily jump from the yellow (battery) terminal to the pink resistor wire.  Then measure voltage (reference to ground) on the brown wire at the starter relay.  This will bypass the ignition switch contact in an attempt to prove out the resistor wire.

3a. If you have voltage at the brown starter relay wire, then your ignition switch is suspect but pink resistor wire and wiring in general is ok.  Replace your ignition switch.
3b. If you have nothing at the brown starter relay wire then you have a problem in the wiring - could be the resistor wire or a connector issue.  Go to test 4.

Test 4. With ignition switch in the off position, temporarily jumper battery voltage to the red-green wire of the ignition coil, with the wire pulled from the coil terminal.  Measure voltage on the brown wire at the starter relay with reference to ground.

4a. If you have voltage at the brown starter relay wire, wires 16, 16B, and 262 are connected.  Keep in mind that this test is with no load, and therefore could show a false positive.  Go to test 5.
4b. (difficult) If you have no or low voltage, there is a problem with the wiring or connectors shown on the diagram.  Check the 14289 to 14290 harness connector first, which if I recall is in the engine compartment.  If that is ok, you will need to get up under the dash and check out the 14401 to 14290 connection point.

Test 5. At this point the ignition switch and resistor wire are good, and the wiring is connected and intact.  However, there might be a significant voltage drop across a connection or bad area of a wire while the circuit is loaded, when the engine is running and current is flowing to the coil.   What I do in a situation like this is to get a small needle and use it to probe through the wires at various points in the circuit along the way in an attempt to uncover where the voltage drop is occuring.  In this particular case I would probably start at the red-green wire ahead of the connector at the coil.  Note that these are all measuring voltage with reference to ground, with the key in run.  Also note that as you probe along the way, as soon as you find some significant voltage, let's say over 9V for discussion purposes, you have isolated the problem between there and the previous measured point.  If that first probed voltage is low, then go to the 14289 to 14290 connector, and measure the red-green wire on the 14289 side, followed by the 14290 side.  If those are low, move up to the 14290 to 14401 connector under the dash.
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
7R02C156xxx
MCA 74660

Offline midlife

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2020, 09:13:59 PM »
I had a similar problem with Midlife (66 GT A code) when I first got it.  It would crank and catch just fine, but as soon as I let off of the crank key, the engine would die.  I traced the problem to a bad connection at the starter motor: the threads were worn away and the nut holding the starter cable was very loose.  The bad connection would lower the voltage so much that there wasn't enough going to the coil via the ignition switch and the car would die.  I had to replace the starter.

The poster says he gets 0.7V or so in the RUN position at the coil, so there's obviously some high resistance somewhere along the line.  That voltage could be stray voltage, and the actual voltage under load is zero---possibly. 
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Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2020, 09:24:21 PM »
Since you can crank and start, but the engine won't stay running, take a look at diagram 3 from the attachment on the previous post, representing when the ignition switch is in the run position.

The steps I recommend are:

Test 1: (easy) measure the voltage from the red-green wire at the coil, with reference to ground, while it is still connected to the coil.

1a. Measure voltage when cranking and report back here.  I assume that this is about 12V since you said in the original post that the engine will start with no hesitation.
1b. Measure voltage right after cranking, with key in run, and report back here.  I assume that this is near zero since you mentioned 0.76V, but your description of "ign to coil" is not perfectly clear to me.

Note that the following tests would be my recommendation if the running voltage at the coil is near zero.

Test 2: (easy) put the ignition switch in the run (not crank) position, then measure voltage on the brown wire at the starter relay.  You can pull the wire from the relay, it does not need to be connected to anything.  Reference is ground.

2a. If you have a nominal 12V, then your ignition switch and resistor wire are good.  Go to test 4.
2b. If you have no or very low voltage, go to test 3.

Test 3.  (intermediate) pull the ignition switch out and temporarily jump from the yellow (battery) terminal to the pink resistor wire.  Then measure voltage (reference to ground) on the brown wire at the starter relay.  This will bypass the ignition switch contact in an attempt to prove out the resistor wire.

3a. If you have voltage at the brown starter relay wire, then your ignition switch is suspect but pink resistor wire and wiring in general is ok.  Replace your ignition switch.
3b. If you have nothing at the brown starter relay wire then you have a problem in the wiring - could be the resistor wire or a connector issue.  Go to test 4.

Test 4. With ignition switch in the off position, temporarily jumper battery voltage to the red-green wire of the ignition coil, with the wire pulled from the coil terminal.  Measure voltage on the brown wire at the starter relay with reference to ground.

4a. If you have voltage at the brown starter relay wire, wires 16, 16B, and 262 are connected.  Keep in mind that this test is with no load, and therefore could show a false positive.  Go to test 5.
4b. (difficult) If you have no or low voltage, there is a problem with the wiring or connectors shown on the diagram.  Check the 14289 to 14290 harness connector first, which if I recall is in the engine compartment.  If that is ok, you will need to get up under the dash and check out the 14401 to 14290 connection point.

Test 5. At this point the ignition switch and resistor wire are good, and the wiring is connected and intact.  However, there might be a significant voltage drop across a connection or bad area of a wire while the circuit is loaded, when the engine is running and current is flowing to the coil.   What I do in a situation like this is to get a small needle and use it to probe through the wires at various points in the circuit along the way in an attempt to uncover where the voltage drop is occuring.  In this particular case I would probably start at the red-green wire ahead of the connector at the coil.  Note that these are all measuring voltage with reference to ground, with the key in run.  Also note that as you probe along the way, as soon as you find some significant voltage, let's say over 9V for discussion purposes, you have isolated the problem between there and the previous measured point.  If that first probed voltage is low, then go to the 14289 to 14290 connector, and measure the red-green wire on the 14289 side, followed by the 14290 side.  If those are low, move up to the 14290 to 14401 connector under the dash.
+1 most typical cause of this problem is bad ignition switch from my personal experience. Experience of others may vary. 
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline RoyceP

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2020, 10:52:53 PM »
The problem can be caused by a bad resistance wire, a bad ignition switch, or a disconnected wire. I am very suspicious when a tiny fraction of a volt is found. It could be your auto ranging digital meter is telling you something that may or may not be true. One of these little analog VOM's can give better information.

https://www.amazon.com/Gardner-Bender-GMT-318-Multimeter-Function/dp/B00291X79O/ref=sr_1_13?keywords=volt+ohm+meter&qid=1585014488&sr=8-13

Again, measure voltage to see where the problem is. Then look carefully at all the places wires are supposed to connect to each other. It's cheap to measure voltage and look. It takes very little time. That way you can buy what you need and save money and time simultaneously.


I am sure that this is my problem.  How can this wire go bad and how do I fix?
1968 W code 427 Cougar XR-7 GTE Feb 23 Dearborn C6 / 3.50 open
1968 R code 428CJ Cougar XR-7 May 13 Dearborn C6 / 3.91 T - Lock

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Starting problem
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2020, 04:44:12 AM »
I vote for a bad crimp in the somewhat new aftermarket harness (most likely in the resistor wire crimps).
Since it ran before and now does not and the symptoms you have shared, it makes the most sense.
What brand harness?
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments