ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1964 1/2 - 1965 => Topic started by: GlennG on October 10, 2009, 01:36:00 PM
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I am really happy that I found this website! I have a 65 Mustang that I have totally stripped down to bare metal, and I am doing a ground-up restoration. Can anyone share pictures relating to sound deadener in wheel wells (front and rear)and trunk? I want to make sure that I am applying it correctly to those areas. Although I may not be totally concours, I am trying my best to come close. What factory paint, if any, would be applied over the sound deadener?
Finally, after applying sound deadener, was factory paint applied over the top? Thank you for all comments/pictures.
P.S. Additional info: I used a brushable seam sealer from Eastwood Co. on cowl and interior. On other areas that I want a thin "hidden" seal, such as areas of floor that factory never sealed, I used 3M All-around Autobody Sealant # 8500...great stuff because you can clean up with a wet rag. On cowl and trunk taillight panel support I am trying a 3M product called Fast and Firm #8505 (I want to get the factory goopy look.) I'll let you know how it all turns out.
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I like using the two part seam sealers that come out of a special gun that 3M sells, as it sets up in minutes and very tough, it can be used over bare metal. I believe the 3m part # is 8310 and it's called bare metal. This stuff cures better in 15 minutes than the single part products do in a year and still remain plyable. I am currently doing a 69 MACH 1 and the inside of the trunk, wheelhouse and parts of the floor had a sprayable seam sealer applied at the factory. I used the 3m sprayable seam sealer on the inside of the trunk and looks pretty close to the original. I have not done my wheelhouses yet and may try another type of sprayable seam sealer on that. I know most use a SCHUTZ type gun to apply undercoating but this product is not near as heavy as the factory deadner. Again this takes another special type of gun to apply the spray seam sealer. Some auto paint stores will rent or let you borrow these guns as they are expensive.
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Hi Glenn and welcome. Lets start with what factory and approximate build date?( or VIN)
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The vin # is 5R07C177968...the door ID is tucked away in my parts boxes, but I am sure that this Mustang is from the San Jose assembly plant.
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The vin # is 5R07C177968...the door ID is tucked away in my parts boxes, but I am sure that this Mustang is from the San Jose assembly plant.
OK that gives us a good start. There are many options as to what will work to reproduce these finishes. A good start IMHO for discussion and study would be the "What worked for me..." thread below of the products I use and have been recommending lately
IMHO I would not recommend Firm and Fast in the trunk if for no other reason the color that it comes in.
Finally, after applying sound deadener, was factory paint applied over the top?
Depends on which sealer and sound deadener.
IN short for a 65 San Jose
Rear wheel wells - before primer and exterior paint
Front wheel wells - Sealer before primer and black (no body color typically in front wheel wells. Sound deadener after the car is completely together (minus wheels and tires is best)
Trunk - Before (sealer and sound deadener) exterior color applied. Sound deadener shot onto panels. Tail light panel and those surfaces were either sprayed, applied out a chaulking gun or a combination of both depending on when the car was build.
I've been away at the Judges meeting will post some pictures of examples from your car's time period later this week if that will help
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Thanks all for replies including Cobrajetchris and Jeff Speegle. There was a comment against using 3m Fast 'N' Firm 8505 because of color. Since I will be applying paint over the top e.g. cowl areas, I do not envision color to be an issue.
Jeff, I look forward to seeing trunk and wheel well pictures from that time period ;D
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...........Since I will be applying paint over the top e.g. cowl areas, I do not envision color to be an issue.
Just be aware that on original cars the color over these areas was often altered by the color of the sealer below. In addition any chips and cracks (sometimes found on original cars) will show that you used a different color.
Your choice ;)
BTW used firm and fast on the current project - a little over a year ago. Will be redoing it since its already cracked and lifted :(
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Jeff, what was the original color of the sealer around the cowl, etc.as compared to Fast and Firm? I have not opened the cartridge yet, so I could always look at a return. javascript:void(0); I assume that original goopy cowl sealer was black?
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Jeff, what was the original color of the sealer around the cowl, etc.as compared to Fast and Firm? I have not opened the cartridge yet, so I could always look at a return. javascript:void(0); I assume that original goopy cowl sealer was black?
The original seam sealer on the cowl was a light color, like a light tan.
The K convertible I'm restoring is pretty close in production to your car. Would be interested in seeing any "before" pictures you might have.
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Hi Charles,
My before pictures were taken with a non-digital camera, so as soon as I can scan them...hopefully by this weekend. I also have some pictures of grease markings that might be interesting as well.
If the cowl sealer was light tan, now I have to find out the color of 3M fast and firm...I would prefer not to open it as then I can at least return it. Jeff, anyone, do you know the color of the 8505 3M Fast and Firm???
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Hi Charles,
......................Jeff, anyone, do you know the color of the 8505 3M Fast and Firm???
Unless there are a number of different colors the stuff I've seen and used was a light beige
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The 3M stuff is light beige
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Since the 3M 8505 Fast and Firm is light beige, how much does this color really differ from the original cowl sealer (light tan)? I am painting my car its original color, Wimbleton White. If I use Fast and Firm and it cracks, how will the sealer show against the Wimbleton White?
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Since I am on the subject of sound deadener, I will add that in the engine bay, I will be sealing all sealer with PPG DP74 Red Oxide Primer. Any areas that have the Eastwood brushable seam sealer will be scuffed with Scotch Brite Gray to insure that the primer will stick.
A friend of mine that restores muscle cars suggested using Kirker Hot Rod black ...here is a link: (http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/kirker-acrylic-urethane-hot-rod-black-satin-finish-ua70388-p-13771.aspx), which is a two part paint (paint and catalyst) that will be used to paint the engine compartment semi-gloss black. The factory says "Apply additional coats, or apply in heavier coats. Doing so can increase the finish to a semi-gloss appearance." It appears that you can adjust this paint to get the proper amount of sheen that will reproduce the original engine bay semi-gloss black. I will also include this link for Kirker's technical data "P" sheet: http://www.kirkerautomotive.com/html/flat_black_paints.html
Has anyone tried Eastwood's ceramic semi-gloss Underhood black for their engine compartment? I was considering using it. Here is the link:
http://www.eastwood.com/2k-ceramic-underhood-black-quart-kit.html?SRCCODE=1EMA09B&utm_content=New+-+2K+Ceramic+Underhood+Black!&utm_campaign=10-02-09+New+-+2K+Ceramic+Underhood+Black!&utm_source=iPost&utm_medium=email (http://www.eastwood.com/2k-ceramic-underhood-black-quart-kit.html?SRCCODE=1EMA09B&utm_content=New+-+2K+Ceramic+Underhood+Black!&utm_campaign=10-02-09+New+-+2K+Ceramic+Underhood+Black!&utm_source=iPost&utm_medium=email)
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Your your car's period and plant
Trunk sealant was applied with something like a chalking gun. Around the bumper supports is was applied and allowed to settle. This application made the finished product stand up in a pile of sealant for lack of a better description
In other applications is as smoothed with a brush or a rag sipped in a solvent making this application fat and wider. (examples tallight panel to floor, taillight panel to end caps, trunk floor to trunk sides)
Some examples
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/5R07C167034Pstrnk.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/5R07C167034SParehold.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/5R07C167034trnkseal2.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/5R07C167034trnksealant2.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/5R07T178832TL.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/5R07T178832Trnkbolts.jpg)
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A couple of examples of 65 SJ trunk sound deadener application
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/trnksound5R07T238336datrnk.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/trnksound5R07C135337dstrnk.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/Trunkspound5R07A257919.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/Trunksound65SJ.jpg)
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Fairly typical examples of rear wheel well sound deadener application for 65-66 San Jose. This was applied before the primer - directly to the bare metal
Thick and heavy in many areas
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/65-6SJRwheelwell1.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/65-6SJRwheelwell.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/65-6SJRwheelwell2.jpg)
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Great rear wheel well photos. I am adding a cowl sealer photo. Jeff, could you see if you have any front wheel well photos of sound deadener to fill out the mix here? Thanks again for all the input. ;D Glenn
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I am looking for FRONT wheel well pictures that Jeff or Charles (or other folks?) can supply. What would be your suggestions of steps for the application of primer, sealer, and sound deadener? Any photos that show this area around the front wheel wells would be much appreciated as I am wanting to complete my engine compartment and wheel wells. Here is my data plate info: 65A M 26 22A 74 6 5.
Thanks for your help! Glenn
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I am looking for FRONT wheel well pictures that Jeff or Charles (or other folks?) can supply. What would be your suggestions of steps for the application of primer, sealer, and sound deadener? Any photos that show this area around the front wheel wells would be much appreciated as I am wanting to complete my engine compartment and wheel wells. Here is my data plate info:5R07C177968 65A M 26 22A 74 6 5.
1- From what I've seen all surfaces would have received a nice coat of red oxide colored epoxy primer/sealer in the front wheel well when they were shooting the bottom of the front frame rail
2- During this period at San Jose then they would have typically applied seam sealer (from a chalking gun sort of applicator and then the material was spread with a rag dipped in thinner or kerosene or a brush of some form to the firewall to inner fender panel and front frame rail seam. During this period we often find that workers working at that time sealed the rear frame rail to inner fender panel seam for some reason in the same manner. Seams are highlighted in the picture below. NOTE to others viewing the thread - these details differ from other periods of the year
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/65SJFrntwheelwelldetails-seamseal.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/65SJFrntwheelwelldetails-seamseallo.jpg)
3- Area from where the rear splash shield forward (including the inside of the shock tower) would have received a nice coat of engine compartment black at the same station the engine compartment was painted black. Because of angle and coverage over spray from this operation was allowed to coat brackets that hung down from the front frame rails.
4- After the car was assembled (suspension, front sheet metal, front splash shields....- except front wheel and tire) a worker would apply sound deadener to the front wheel well. The purpose was to seal the water from entering the passenger compartment, deadener road and rain sounds and in some cases protect surfaces from gravel damage in those events. The typical application can best be described as a little or allot. At a minimum the firewall section of the front wheel well received a nice heavy coating of sound deadener. This normally included the rear splash shield surface exposed there also. It should be noted that the deadener was shot from the outside of the car with an somewhat upward angle. So consider this when producing overspray.
A single pass of the application wand from approx the lower rear frame and inner fender junction upward and forward towards the top rear point of the spring/shock cover, where it stops.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/65SJFrntwheelwelldetails-dednrrear.jpg)
Another pass diagonal from the top front point of the shock/spring cover to the lower front edge of the inner fender panel
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/65SJFrntwheelwelldetails-deadener.jpg)
And another short pass over the front splash shield.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/65SJFrntwheelwelldetails-deadenerSp.jpg)
On about approx every 5th - 10th car the worker would make an additional pass of the applicator wand along the length of the bottom of the fender. In most cases the wand pass was wide enough to apply material across the width of the bottom surface of the fender and the bottom of all the mounting bolts at the inner fender.
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;D Wow, great sugggestions! Thank you so much for taking the time to explain all the details! Glenn
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Hi Jeff, I can't tell from the photos. In the front wheel wells, was the seam sealer applied going forward from the shock tower along the front frame rail seams? Also, do you have pictures(maybe the same ones?) without the reddish color that will help me envision how the sealer looked underneath the sound deadener?
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Hi Jeff, I can't tell from the photos. In the front wheel wells, was the seam sealer applied going forward from the shock tower along the front frame rail seams?
I don't see that on cars I have pictures of, from that period of time at San Jose. There are other periods where we find it there also while there are other periods where neither (front or rear of shock tower) are done
Also, do you have pictures(maybe the same ones?) without the reddish color that will help me envision how the sealer looked underneath the sound deadener?
Here you go.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/5R178832Seamsealinner.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/5R07C167034Pswheelwel.jpg)
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I would also be very grateful to see close-up and other pictures of the seam sealer that Ford used in the area of the pinch weld to floor seam (that runs from wheel well to wheel well) along the length of the car. What brand of seam sealer, (and method of application) would you use to recreate what was used in this area? :-\
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I would also be very grateful to see close-up and other pictures of the seam sealer that Ford used in the area of the pinch weld to floor seam (that runs from wheel well to wheel well) along the length of the car.
Here you go
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/65-6SanJoseFloorfinishsealantforwar.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/65SanJoseFloorfinishrockersealant.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/65SanJoseFloorfinishrockerseal.jpg)
What brand of seam sealer, (and method of application) would you use to recreate what was used in this area? :-\
DAP ALEX PLUS is what I used last week. Pretty happy with the way it went on nicely. Applied it with a chalking gun then laid down/spread with a cheap 1/2" brush with 80% of the length of the bristles cut off.
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8) Thanks for the quick reply and great pictures, Jeff!!! By the way, I am working on "resurrecting" my '66 dirt bag Hertz...it has been non-running for over 20 years and the body, etc. needs a lot of TLC but I am hoping to get it at least safe to drive to SAAC 38 in Sonoma. I think it will be a great conversation piece....maybe I'll see you there? Glenn
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8) Thanks for the quick reply and great pictures, Jeff!!! By the way, I am working on "resurrecting" my '66 dirt bag Hertz...it has been non-running for over 20 years and the body, etc. needs a lot of TLC but I am hoping to get it at least safe to drive to SAAC 38 in Sonoma. I think it will be a great conversation piece....maybe I'll see you there? Glenn
Will look for it ;) Know there should be 3-4 unrestored other 65-6's there or more - if everyone makes it.
There are still a ton of unrestored Shelby's in garages and such around the state.
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Jeff, you previously said the following regarding rear trunk sealers: "Trunk - Before (sealer and sound deadener) exterior color applied. Sound deadener shot onto panels. Tail light panel and those surfaces were either sprayed, applied out a chaulking gun or a combination of both depending on when the car was build."
I own a late San Jose car, Shelby GT350, 6S098. Although I would like to keep the entire Ford VIN to myself(and Howard!), it is 239xxx. Should I caulk, or should I spray.
And, BTW, I sure would like a few more clues about how much brown,black, and clear to add to my DP74 IYHO.
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I own a late San Jose car, Shelby GT350, 6S098. Although I would like to keep the entire Ford VIN to myself(and Howard!), it is 239xxx. Should I caulk, or should I spray.
First - welcome to the site
No worry about the VIN - since we don't have any idea of when any of these cars were specifically built more numbers would not help. Likely could figure out most of the last three anyway ;)
Here is a couple of shots of a 65 San Jose of about that same period to help (much better than just words) Locks to be a loose chalk job with some brush spreading along the bottom base of the taillight panel and seams towards the gas tank
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/5R07C23955xsparmount.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/65%20Mustangs/5R07C23955xtrunkfloor.jpg)
And, BTW, I sure would like a few more clues about how much brown,black, and clear to add to my DP74 IYHO.
I'll see if I can find the formula I use - new comouter does not have everything moved over yet
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Thanks Jeff, exactly what I needed and then some, with the photos! And with the date code visible on the taillight panel support, it certainly confirms that it is from about the same period, too.
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Thanks Jeff, exactly what I needed and then some, with the photos! And with the date code visible on the taillight panel support, it certainly confirms that it is from about the same period, too.
Just here to help ;)
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Is there a recommendation on which product to use to replicate the sound deadner in the front fender area?
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I've seen Wurth and some other products uses and allot of the results depends on the expensive guns to apply the thick heavy coat. Might want to play with chilling the product before the application. Improved the results in other products years ago.
Remember, during application, to let it flow where it goes. Too many tape and mask off other areas to the point where the overspray patterns (deduct for this all the time :( do not make sense. A possibility would be to apply the first heavy coat to get it where you want coverage , then go back with a lighter coat, softening the edges and extending the overspray in a logical manner